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Thread: News - Next Windows officially named Windows 8.1 - free for Win8 users

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    Re: News - Next Windows officially named Windows 8.1 - free for Win8 users

    Quote Originally Posted by Willzzz View Post
    So if you have done all that what is the problem?
    If you have a series of drop down menus isn't that essentially what the start menu is?

    We've had the ability to add menus to the start bar since XP, it doesn't take any research..

    If you don't want to use the MUI/charms bar just don't activate them.
    What Start menu?

    I use the desktop, I use menus. I don't want start screen, I don't want apps from the Windows store, and I certainly don't want flaming great tiles, live updating or not, any more than I want charm, etc.

    What I want is my desktop, and start menu, working as it always has, and to not have to get used to doing all sorts of things in a different way just to suit MS' s convenience.

    When you say it is "essentially" what start menu is, do you mean start screen, with grouping, etc? Because if so, no, it is not the same. I do not want to see the Metro screen and tiles, EVER, because the ONLY thing it does for me is get in the way of using my PC as I always have.

    I'm not interested in switching between desktop mode and MUI, because there is NOTHING in the MUI I want? Not tiles, not groups, not charms, or bars, or hot corners. All I want is for MS to get their new ideas for how a UI should work outta my face, so I can get on with doing what I do with my machines, day to day.

    If I can get MUI outta my face, using 3rd party tools, I will. But I should not have to resort to 3rd party tools to do it, and all MS had to do was let users choose.

    If it comes to a choice between adopting MUI, now or in the future, or not using Windows, I will dump Windows. Linux offers a perfectly practicable alternative, and one I already use, and while I would have stayed with Windows solely for Photoshop, Adobe killed that for me with their new subscription-only model. So, if it's Linux+GIMP or Windows+MUI+Photoshop subscription, it'll be Linux+GIMP.

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    Re: News - Next Windows officially named Windows 8.1 - free for Win8 users

    No I'm saying just attach a menu to your start bar like you would do in any other version of windows.

    A menu that comes out of your start bar with menus and groupings, that's what you want right?

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    Re: News - Next Windows officially named Windows 8.1 - free for Win8 users

    Quote Originally Posted by Willzzz View Post
    No I'm saying just attach a menu to your start bar like you would do in any other version of windows.

    A menu that comes out of your start bar with menus and groupings, that's what you want right?
    Erm, maybe. I'm not sure we're quite on the same page, though we may be.

    What I want is to work more or less as I do now. So yes, Start button, drop-down menu, and nested menus with that, so for instance, menu options that say "Office", "Graphics", etc, and the "Office" menu might contain 2 or 3 (fly-out) sub-menus, like "Accounts", as well as selectable items, like WP, Spreadsheet, Contact Manager.

    Or my "Graphics" menu might have sub-menus like Photo, Video, Sound, CD/DVD Mastering & Authoring, as well as half a dozen small utilities at the first level.

    What I don't want is the Metro tiles getting in the way, ever. So, boot to desktop, with a start button, menys on it, and the ability to use desktop icons, either as shortcuts to applications or to data directories, without Metro mode gettng in the way.

    In other words, to use my PC more or less exactly as I long have.

    It really comes down to this. I detest it when MS change the way things word, drastically, without giving US the choice. The Office Ribbon bar was another example, and a precursor to this. It ought to have been up to the user, and in reality it was due to 3rd party tools (again). On that one, I actually liked the Ribbon bar and use it, but a LOT of people still don't, and won't use it. Either way, such a change ought to have been a choice, not rammed down our throats .... a bit like supporting Classic mode through years of Windows upgrades, and neither that nor the Ribbon bar were anything like as drastic a chamge as MUI, given that, short of 3rd party tools, you cannot get out from under MUI lurking around all the time.

    As I said, I want MUI gone from my life, not hovering around like a malignant poltergeist when what I want is the desktop mode, the whole desktop mode, and nothing but the desktop mode.

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    Re: News - Next Windows officially named Windows 8.1 - free for Win8 users

    Is it just me who isn't bothered by the start screen.

    Once I figured how to group things I actually prefer it.

    I have video work which is very seasonal, so when I have work on the group comes to the front, if not my games are there, my other useful stuff is usually around too.

    Its just a bigger more customisable start menu.

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    Re: News - Next Windows officially named Windows 8.1 - free for Win8 users

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    I have not and would not suggest MS supply all sorts of interfaces. But, when they remove the one we've all used for years and replace it with something that requires getting used to new ways of doing things, I expect it to at least be an improvement. As I went into at length in another thread, I'm angry because MUI offers me nothing of any use to me, and removes the old UI. As I've said, I'd have no problem with the default being MUI, provided I get offered the choice to change from the default to "classic".
    So, two interfaces then? Why not an option for a Win2k style start menu too? I take your point on MUI not being there yet (i've highlighted my problems with it on more than one occasion) but you very much are asking for multiple interfaces for essentially the same thing - and we've already gone over why this wasn't going to happen. Personally I hope they fix enough in 8.1 to satisfy you (and I) but I suspect it'll take them a little longer than that before it full make sense for the desktop. Anyway, i'm not sure 'strong-arm' is the right phrase given you've got the choice of not buying it, modifying it, or moving (as you seem to be) to linux - at least until such time as you see any value in what they're up to. On this last point I disagree with you because I do see a benefit in their strategy for end users but (big one too) it's going to take a few years to see it materialise (if and when they pull it off).

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    Only by downloading and installing 3rd party tools, whether paid-for (but cheap) or free /open-source.
    That feels to me like an artificial barrier - "only if MS provide my option can I use it" - which you're self imposing (as an observation). I can't get through my day with Explorer (on any Windows version) since it's incapable of doing all the things that Opus does - but I don't care that GP Software make it and not MS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
    Also, why do I give a damn if supporting software is hard work for a team of developers? I'm a consumer, I want a product that works for me, it's up to the developers to do that. If they don't want to do it they can cry into their cornflakes for all I care.
    Why would I suppose otherwise? If you don't like it then you don't buy it, so?

    Quote Originally Posted by Percy1983 View Post
    Is it just me who isn't bothered by the start screen.
    No, it's not just you - i'm not really bothered by it either. I don't use it very much and there are some things about it that i'd like changed/fixed but it's largely avoidable for me. I quite like the idea of it - i.e. the presentation, live tiles and being a start point when turning on the PC but mines mostly a disorganised mess because of the lack of built-in self organisation when things install (which does annoy me). It's tendancy to become a wall of icons is all too apparent. Normally though I use the instant search and it's gone for 99% of the cases where I invoke it.
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    Re: News - Next Windows officially named Windows 8.1 - free for Win8 users

    Quote Originally Posted by dangel View Post
    So, two interfaces then? Why not an option for a Win2k style start menu too? I take your point on MUI not being there yet (i've highlighted my problems with it on more than one occasion) but you very much are asking for multiple interfaces for essentially the same thing - and we've already gone over why this wasn't going to happen. Personally I hope they fix enough in 8.1 to satisfy you (and I) but I suspect it'll take them a little longer than that before it full make sense for the desktop. Anyway, i'm not sure 'strong-arm' is the right phrase given you've got the choice of not buying it, modifying it, or moving (as you seem to be) to linux - at least until such time as you see any value in what they're up to. On this last point I disagree with you because I do see a benefit in their strategy for end users but (big one too) it's going to take a few years to see it materialise (if and when they pull it off).



    That feels to me like an artificial barrier - "only if MS provide my option can I use it" - which you're self imposing (as an observation). I can't get through my day with Explorer (on any Windows version) since it's incapable of doing all the things that Opus does - but I don't care that GP Software make it and not MS.
    Two interfaces? Win 8 has that anyway. It has how you do things in MUI and how you do things in Desktop.

    My objection is that in adding MUI, MS did not have to physically remove the parts of the Win7 interface that have been there, in one form or another, for years. athey could have simply left the Start menu so that those, and it's a significant proportion, that don't give a flying fig about MUI or Metro apps, and aren't likely to have touch screens in anything resembling the near future, could have just carried on without all the hassle that deciding to try to force us to do things differently has caused.

    MS want to leverage MUI. I get that. But it absolutely is strong-arming us into their way of doing things, because instead of leaving existing methods in place in desktop mode for those that don't want the disturbance of working in new ways, they attempted ti force it by removing those bits. And but for 3rd party developers, they would probably hsve succeeded.

    Nor is it an artificial barrier.

    I'm not saying MS should have added anything in. Just not removed bits that were already there. Win 8 is supposed to be an upgrsde from Win 7, yes? It's an evolution of an existing product stream. But now, if people upgrade, they have a binary choice :-

    - either, bow down and use MS' s preferred route, or
    - go to the time, trouble, risk and perhaps cost, of finding a 3rd party way of putting back in what MS took out.

    This hassle is not about finding a package to get your PC to do something new. It's about finding something to simply let you carry on working as you were before "upgrading" your OS.

    I know quite a few corporates, of varying sizes, that are not upgrading to Win 8 because they are not prepared to put up with the disruption, and even retraining costs, implied by these UI changes.

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    Re: News - Next Windows officially named Windows 8.1 - free for Win8 users

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    Two interfaces? Win 8 has that anyway. It has how you do things in MUI and how you do things in Desktop.
    Ha, but you know I meant two start menus..

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    My objection is that in adding MUI, MS did not have to physically remove the parts of the Win7 interface that have been there, in one form or another, for years. athey could have simply left the Start menu so that those, and it's a significant proportion, that don't give a flying fig about MUI or Metro apps, and aren't likely to have touch screens in anything resembling the near future, could have just carried on without all the hassle that deciding to try to force us to do things differently has caused.
    The could of done a whole heap of things - but it didn't suit them as we've discussed - as to the numbers of people who are of your view (or mine) no idea. I remember the Start Menu in XP being derided by German colleagues, the Start Bar in 7 being lambasted by others - in fact pretty much any UI change ever upsets someone. On this scale? Ouch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    MS want to leverage MUI. I get that. But it absolutely is strong-arming us into their way of doing things, because instead of leaving existing methods in place in desktop mode for those that don't want the disturbance of working in new ways, they attempted ti force it by removing those bits. And but for 3rd party developers, they would probably hsve succeeded.
    Would of? They've done it - sure they'll make changes to it and (hopefully) fix it - but those third party solutions aren't widely used (at least in terms of the Windows 8 install base). Remember the largesse of users won't know they exist and you'll be amazed what people will put up with rather than take the time to 'fix' it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    Nor is it an artificial barrier.

    I'm not saying MS should have added anything in. Just not removed bits that were already there. Win 8 is supposed to be an upgrsde from Win 7, yes? It's an evolution of an existing product stream. But now, if people upgrade, they have a binary choice :-

    - either, bow down and use MS' s preferred route, or
    - go to the time, trouble, risk and perhaps cost, of finding a 3rd party way of putting back in what MS took out.

    This hassle is not about finding a package to get your PC to do something new. It's about finding something to simply let you carry on working as you were before "upgrading" your OS.

    I know quite a few corporates, of varying sizes, that are not upgrading to Win 8 because they are not prepared to put up with the disruption, and even retraining costs, implied by these UI changes.
    And so most people will go with MS' provided option - but if you're willing to spend the time posting on a tech forum about the problem then you're more than capable of trialling some of those solutions which will (probably) provide 8 as you'd like. The artificial barrier to that is saying you're not happy they're not from MS so you'll not bother - sorry doesn't make sense. If I read that wrong my apologies but that was what I was responding to.

    As for corporates - most are a long way from deploying 8 regardless of it's benefits or problems - such is the way of things. We still have some users on an XP image (ffs) - probably only 80% complete 7 deployment or so. I suspect most will skip 8 because of the timing and MS make money from their licencing agreements whether they take 8 or not. So do MS really lose out? Probably not, so long as they complete/fix the MUI stuff in the point updates or whatever schedule they've moved to now.
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    Re: News - Next Windows officially named Windows 8.1 - free for Win8 users

    It's not even a matter of having to learn a new interface. The problem with one-size-fits-all ideation is that all is not just one size. It's a simple matter of optimisation, one is more optimal for one paradigm over the other. MUI is as terrible a keyboard and mouse-driven interface as the window modal GUI is terrible with touch-driven interface.

    It'd be like walking into shops looking to buy pants, and the only pair of pants everyone stocks is small, and you're not small. Not only do you not capture the median consumer, you're completely disregarding the large, and extra large, etc..
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    Re: News - Next Windows officially named Windows 8.1 - free for Win8 users

    There are all sorts of category of user, Dangel, and no doubt, reactions. Some people will like the changes, some loathe them, and some not notice.

    As for whether they've "done it", that remains to be seen, but it may well be. It will probably depend on the nature of large corporate responses, and it'd probably be reasonable to assume any backtracking in 8.1 will be a reaction to such company's "feedback".

    As for the size of any backlash, my money is on it being virtually impossible to tell, not least because we don't know how many don't upgrade over this (I know a few, personally), or that do upgrade but then go 3rd party. But personal experience, yours or mine, personal or business, is never going to be much of a yardstick for overall reaction.

    Another indicator is the extent of negative press, and that certainly has been very substantial. But again, how indicative is unclear.

    Personally, I don't much care. My only interest is in what I do. I've upgraded one system (or to be more accurate, one boot drive) to 8, and only one, and only then because that machine needs to be the current OS. A couple more will stay on 7, some are still on XP and will almost certainly stay that way, 'cos there's absolutely no benefit in changing, so they're immaterial anyway. A new laptop purchase was cancelled because I couldn't find a suitable machine with 7, so it's on hold while I decide which direction to take, but it won't be Win 8.

    If MS were to capitulate and restore the functionality I'm on about, I'll revisit that, but if not, then I'll hold at Win 7 for as long as I can, and then slowly migrate off of an MS platform entirely, except where it has to be MS. And for the record, I'm sure not holding my breath for any such capitulation. I have no such expectation, and as my migration is already underway, no longer much interest anyway.

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    Re: News - Next Windows officially named Windows 8.1 - free for Win8 users

    Quote Originally Posted by aidanjt View Post
    It's not even a matter of having to learn a new interface. The problem with one-size-fits-all ideation is that all is not just one size. It's a simple matter of optimisation, one is more optimal for one paradigm over the other. MUI is as terrible a keyboard and mouse-driven interface as the window modal GUI is terrible with touch-driven interface.

    It'd be like walking into shops looking to buy pants, and the only pair of pants everyone stocks is small, and you're not small. Not only do you not capture the median consumer, you're completely disregarding the large, and extra large, etc..
    Exactly.

    And by trying to force me to like small pants, they've alienated me. I wonder how many others are alienated, and in what severity? There are other tailors.

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    Re: News - Next Windows officially named Windows 8.1 - free for Win8 users

    So, as a diversion from pants(!) - do you believe what MS is attempting isn't possible? That they can't unify their platforms in a coherent and pleasant way for the majority? I can see a number of ways they could address the desktop fairly easily - even if they had to introduce specific elements of UI that are only visible on said. We all agree the v0.1 version of MUI doesn't work well for desktop (despite some disagreement on the impact that has) but it's still an interesting idea (just with imperfect implementation). I sort of see the point moving from tablet to desktop through my day as I do..

    There's no denying the deliberate focus on touch in v0.1 but that doesn't preclude them shifting back to desktop in the point updates or major revisions. I don't see MS as being married to touch as their only goal - MUI could do many things, it's a whole new platform and as such will evolve considerably.

    As an interesting aside - see this fun little demo from leap motion:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21LtA...layer_embedded

    I've got one on order since all these new methods of interaction are of great interest to me (professionally and personally).
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    Re: News - Next Windows officially named Windows 8.1 - free for Win8 users

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    There are all sorts of category of user
    Yeah, and maybe kids will actually like MUI while daddy can just go straight to desktop. Could be quite convenient in some ways.

    I don't use MUI (except to launch the odd program) but I don't mind it being there hidden in the background.

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    Re: News - Next Windows officially named Windows 8.1 - free for Win8 users

    Quote Originally Posted by dangel View Post
    So, as a diversion from pants(!) - do you believe what MS is attempting isn't possible? That they can't unify their platforms in a coherent and pleasant way for the majority? I can see a number of ways they could address the desktop fairly easily - even if they had to introduce specific elements of UI that are only visible on said. We all agree the v0.1 version of MUI doesn't work well for desktop (despite some disagreement on the impact that has) but it's still an interesting idea (just with imperfect implementation). I sort of see the point moving from tablet to desktop through my day as I do..
    I dont think that its completely possible to have one size fits all for both mouse and touch, no. I do think that they could do a much better job of making the two environments at least feel and act like one complete system. Unfortunately the only way to completely do that means that you double the amount of development for every MUI application because it would have to have a decent desktop mode and visa versa. The alternative would be to have a 'container' mode for both environments so that everything is accessible in both modes regardless of which it was designed for.

    Multitasking and application switching in MUI needs to be looked at, Android and even IOS both do a better job of this and even then the process is clunky.

    Screen under-usage in MUI apps needs to be addressed, i know MS are trying to make things look 'clean' but they are doing that at the expense of the effective use of a screen real estate.

    The 'start screen' is possibly the easiest for them to fix, and by this i don't mean they could just add back in the traditional start menu, they just need a 'mini' version of MUI that could take advantage of the snap functionality.

    Why is there no proper control panel in MUI? the easiest migration path for MS (with regards to a user familiarity POV) would have been to put in a touch friendly control panel with access to everything that you would need to do on a computer within MUI. This goes for a lot of setup-y things which have changed slightly.

    The charms bar need to be completely revisited for both environments IMO. Just strikes me as a pointless additional eye-soar and its functionality could have been integrated into the OS in a much nicer fashion.

    I really want to like what Microsoft are doing, i like the concept of having a one size fits all operating system that can function effectively with touch or K&M. In day to day life i think the idea is brilliant but what Windows 8 has proved is that its an extremely difficult task and you cannot alienate the working methodology of the traditional desktop in favour of touch.

    The evolution to a new interface in the software needs to be in sync with the evolution in real life and at the moment, people see tablets as different to desktops. Microsoft could have jump-started the blend between the two but instead i think they have made the divide worse

    The argument that many make about windows 8 and being able to barely ever use MUI and the apps that run in it seems stupid to me, it further proves that MS got it wrong. The introduction of a decent touch interface should have such that people actually use it in conjunction with desktop without really feeling like a lot has changed. We should have got more from this, not a feeling of abandonment and frustration.
    Last edited by Biscuit; 21-05-2013 at 01:25 PM.

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    Re: News - Next Windows officially named Windows 8.1 - free for Win8 users

    Edit - Biscuit posted while I was writing, but basically ..... wot he said.



    I'm quite happy to move away from pants, Dangel. I think we've pushed that one far enough.

    Could a dual-platform mode work?

    In principle, I don't see why not. But, IMHO, it has to be done in such a way that doesn't significantly disadvantage existing users.

    OS's evolve. I mean, 8-bit to 16-bit, to 32-bit, to 64-bit, for instance.

    But it was an evolution, not a revolution. Sooner or later, there comes a bite-the-bullet point. So, if you ship retail OS with 32-bit and 64-bit versions, and you offer 32-bit and 64-but variants in OEM, you give USERS the say as to when best to move.

    If, and I stress IF both platforms can be combined in a way that is smooth and non-interfering, then I have no objection at all. Part of that would be what I've said from the start .... let the user decide, have an option.

    My biggest reservation would basically be aidan's point. The reasons most of us want tablets and smartphones are essentially portability, where that is the prime criteria, and where everything else is secondary. And for that, touch works well in some areas, and is an acceptable compromise in others.

    But, the criteria for most desktop applucations are entirely different. In spreadsheets or WP, for instance, I'm far more concerned with screen space than I am with touch, and a mouse pointer being a lot smaller than a fingertip, it's far easier to place things accurately with a mouse, and far quicker.

    And for, say, Photoshop? Keyboard and mouse is okay, keyboard, mouse and pressure sensitive pen on graphics tablet, far better.

    For DTP, personally, the best option is a screen I can rotate (okay, tablets do that) and fine control of the pointer, which says mouse, not finger, to me.

    I could go on, but the point is clear, I think - the right tool for the job, so the question is, what is the job?

    It's one thing (convenience and portability) for tablets, and entirely another for desktops, which may be accounts, or WP, or art work on a graphics tablet.

    My concern is that where touch works is on tablets, but for most, but admittedly not all, desktop purposes, touch is at best, no help, and at worst, a retrograde step.

    MUI is oriented towards touch. It (IMHO, and not just mine) doesn't work so well on mouse / keyboard, and frankly (IMHO, again) is an unmitigated nightmare on keyboard and laptop trackpad.

    A LOT of what most people do on desktops is not oriented towards touch. There will no doubt be some exceptions. Supermarket checkouts are, by and large, no longer dedicated hardware with custom keyboards, but generic PCs with custom applications, combining the necessary security aspects with touch screens and tile-based interfaces, and they work fairly well. An example would be the self-service weighing scales in Waitrose, with two or three screens of icons (tiles) narrowing down what it is the customer has placed on the scales.

    So, app(lication) design is determined in no small part by interface hardware, and like it or not, desktop application design comes from 30 years of mouse and keyboard, and is not well suited to tile-like design and touch screens, yet that's exactly what MUI prioritises, at the expense of compromising desktop mode. And that, IMHO, is the problem.

    Long term, maybe application interfaces will be redesigned with touch in mind, and maybe it'll improve the app interface. I'm not holding my breath, and it sure hasn't happened yet. And it's probably due to chicken and egg - why redesign the interface when so few users have touch screens on a desktop, and why buy touch screens for desktops when, given application interfaces, they don't work well with the applications.


    MUI apart, Win 8 has a lot ( under the hood, as it were) to commend it.

    If MUI were less intrusive to desktop mode, my objections disappear.

    I move from tablet to desktop too (tablet right now), because sometimes, a tablet is far, FAR more convenient to use. But it's an android tablet. That requires a bit of a learning curve for anyone used to PCs, but of course, it was my choice to buy, and doesn't affect. how I use my desktop.

    If this tablet was based on WinMUI, I still would not accept MUI, as currently implemented, on my desktop. A consistent interface is not enough for put up with the nuisance to someone only interested in desktop mode on my PC desktop. And personally, having a consistent interface would be a tiny consideration in selecting my next tablet.

    And for that matter, personally, I far prefer both Apple and android interfaces to MUI, so if interface were a big issue, it'd be a negative for me, as things stand.

    Long term, if MS can refine MUI, and remove the objections, then fine. In the mean time, I rather object to being effectively an unpaid and very unwilling UI beta test department, along with the rest of the Windows userbase, when doing so is a pain in the .... erm .... pants, in my day to day PC life.

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    Re: News - Next Windows officially named Windows 8.1 - free for Win8 users

    The thing is, a lot of people who are holding out wouldn't be if Windows 8 had a "must have" feature for them. Once that happens, people switch.

    The fact we are even debating whether you would or wouldn't upgrade shows you want to....perhaps there are people who are trying their damnedest to justify not upgrading....

    Because, lets face it, I have heard from people who won't upgrade because of a single mouse-click after logon (and for domain logons, you actually save time before the mouse-click, so swings and roundabout)......people who won't upgrade because they want to click on their program icons in start menu instead of MUI

    Really? Are those features THAT "broken" for you?

    Why aren't I hearing about people who refuse to upgrade because Windows Backup was ripped out? Or MCE was removed and is now "paid for"? (and completely missing on VL) Or DVD playback was removed? Or persistent shadow copies has been butchered? (previous versions) Or recently edited documents is missing?

    These are the issues I expect to hear about. These are the things which can really change the way people work on their systems and maintain them.....Yet it's all about the odd mouse click.....stttrrraaannggee.
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    Re: News - Next Windows officially named Windows 8.1 - free for Win8 users

    I cant help feeling that you haven't actually read what myself, Saracen, aiden, CTF and the many others who don't feel W8 represents the requirements of the user have said in this, or other threads, but anyway...

    Damned right i want to upgrade, i like things to be up to date and i would like to utilize the improved 'under the hood' efficiency of W8. Im not trying to justify not upgrading, i'm trying to explain to people why this isn't a case of, 'just live with it' or 'stop being lazy' etc etc. The fact is that i just do not like the way things work.

    I would argue that the fact that we are having this argument/discussion proves that Microsoft has done nothing more than create another controversial OS, much like Vista or ME.

    MCE isn't so much of an issue because i prefer XBMC anyway. With DVD playback and all the other bits and bobs, i think i will always now look towards 3rd party apps that im familiar with, i can see why it might bother others although i cant actually remember the last time i played a DVD.
    Shadow copy and backup facilities are of definite importance and they do baffle me a little bit, but in the case of most users and most of the kind of operation they would do day to day, they actually are not about the way people work. These are more superuser activities and the reason they haven't been complained about as much is because most people never used them in the first place, or at least didn't know they were using them.
    Recent documents is something i hadn't really noticed as its not something i personally used, i always tend to go to it from within the application I'm using or create shortcuts to the folders which contain my regular documents. With the versioning system i use at work, 'recent documents' doesn't really work for us anyway.

    Otherwise yes, those features are THAT broken for me. In independence of each other they all don't seem like much, but as a whole when you add all the little things together, it results in a total package that feels cumbersome and un-intuitive. In my opinion, Its not an improvement in a user interface point of view.
    Last edited by Biscuit; 21-05-2013 at 03:53 PM.

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