News - Windows 8.1 will be downloadable from 17th October

[HEXUS]

Full retail launch of Windows 8.1 software and devices will start on 18th October.

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[edzieba]

Is the 'new start screen button' removable? With keyboard and/or bezel hardware buttons on pretty much everything in existence (and the autohiding 'button' hot-corner from 8.0) it's just a waste of space beyond the 5 minutes it takes to learn to push a button.

[zoomee]

tell that to the million and one Windows 7 users still crying at the loss of the start button mate - Even with it now back most of them still ain't happy! lol

[wildwestgoh]

Can I install it fresh instead of upgrade over the vanilla Windows 8?
I have a CoreSingleLanguage version of OEM Windows 8, I would prefer a fresh install for many reasons.

[SciFi]

Is the 'new start screen button' removable? With keyboard and/or bezel hardware buttons on pretty much everything in existence (and the autohiding 'button' hot-corner from 8.0) it's just a waste of space beyond the 5 minutes it takes to learn to push a button.

This... If I can't switch off the start button I will be staying with vanilla for as long as I can, I do not need to go backwards! People should just learn to bloody adapt !

[cheesemp]

I don't get why this is only available via the Windows store? This will mean a lot of people might miss out. Should have been made available as a regular update. Personally I'm looking forward to the update so I can enable 'boot to desktop' as all I ever use Modern UI for is to start Chrome or Steam and I can do that with shortcuts!

[Saracen]

tell that to the million and one Windows 7 users still crying at the loss of the start button mate - Even with it now back most of them still ain't happy! lol

That's because the objection never was about the Start button. It was about far more than that, and there are several very detailed threads on here about it. To make a load of changes large numbers of people don't like, then reverse about 1% of it and expect them to say "oh great" is wholly unrealistic.

If MS want to disarm the criticism, ALL they have to do is build in the ability to do what Start8 etc allows anyway. What's got lots of people really annoyed with MS isn't the changes but the fact that they tried (wholly unsuccessfully) to FORCE them on users, want it or not, and for MS's benefit, not that of users.

Just build in a simple user-selectable setting, MUI or Classic mode. That's pretty much all it needs. But will they? Doubtful. Why not? Because they put their own cross-platform strategic objectives over the needs of users, and want to force us to go along.

[Tpyo]

That's because the objection never was about the Start button...*some text missing*

Just build in a simple user-selectable setting, MUI or Classic mode. That's pretty much all it needs. But will they? Doubtful. Why not? Because they put their own cross-platform strategic objectives over the needs of users, and want to force us to go along.

This.

[cjs150]

w8 and 8.1 are fine in niche uses. Excellent on a phone or tablet. I am running w8 on my HTPC and it works very well (WMC, Chrome all work from the MUI). But for work desktop we are not moving from w7 - I hate touch on a desktop (I cannot reach my screens) and the idea that you can only have 2 application windows open at once (or with w8.1 is it now 3) is not how we work.

I will upgrade when it comes out. If it is not good enough for my home (non-HTPC) PC then I will head over to Stardoc website for some proper upgrades

[kingpotnoodle]

w8 and 8.1 are fine in niche uses. Excellent on a phone or tablet. I am running w8 on my HTPC and it works very well (WMC, Chrome all work from the MUI). But for work desktop we are not moving from w7 - I hate touch on a desktop (I cannot reach my screens) and the idea that you can only have 2 application windows open at once (or with w8.1 is it now 3) is not how we work.

Where the hell does this touch on desktop myth rubbish come from. Just because Windows 8 *supports* touch doesn't mean you *must* reach out and fondle it, Windows isn't your dog, it won't get all pissed off and uppity because you don't pet it often enough. Windows 8 is more than usable with a mouse and keyboard if you just learn a few very basic keyboard shortcuts and new methods, if you're at all "good with computers" you should have no trouble. Once you go to desktop mode it's almost exactly like Windows 7 except that to launch programs you now have a full screen 'start' solution which is perfectly competent to start applications with, you can multi task in just the same way as before. It's only MUI apps (which are tablet oriented basic things like Android or iOS apps) that are subject to the 2/3 split limitation, you don't even need them on desktops.

If MS want to disarm the criticism, ALL they have to do is build in the ability to do what Start8 etc allows anyway. What's got lots of people really annoyed with MS isn't the changes but the fact that they tried (wholly unsuccessfully) to FORCE them on users, want it or not, and for MS's benefit, not that of users.

Just build in a simple user-selectable setting, MUI or Classic mode. That's pretty much all it needs. But will they? Doubtful. Why not? Because they put their own cross-platform strategic objectives over the needs of users, and want to force us to go along.

Most of the moaners are people who think they are 'power users' and seem capable for installing Start8 if they want to (given they mostly have/are), why reinvent the wheel?

Anyway Microsoft don't really want a huge proliferation of control mechanisms and UI styles, whilst people more familiar with using computers may be able work multiple UIs fluently unfortunately for a lot of less tech-savvy people simple consistency across platforms is far preferable to fragmentation. Similar usage paradigms across all devices can help those less technical (we all know them) to learn their way around and need less help. Having some classic mode means confused people when they accidentally change it or go to a different computer thinking they know Windows 8 but find it totally different. Microsoft don't want the Linux situation of "How do I do X?" to be replied with something like "Well, are you running Gnome, KDE, Unity or are you a command line guy?" (replace with MUI, Classic, custom etc) - most people will simply reply "I don't know".

Windows 8 is designed for more than grumbly techies and band waggoner's, it's a bold goal to unify UI schemas to work on many devices and IMHO it's the future and of course it needs some more work but we should applaud them for trying and be constructive rather than just appealing for backward steps back to anachronistic UIs that were inefficient already. I hated the start menu, it was and fiddly and annoying.

[Saracen]

....

Most of the moaners are people who think they are 'power users' and seem capable for installing Start8 if they want to (given they mostly have/are), why reinvent the wheel?

Anyway Microsoft don't really want a huge proliferation of control mechanisms and UI styles, whilst people more familiar with using computers may be able work multiple UIs fluently unfortunately for a lot of less tech-savvy people simple consistency across platforms is far preferable to fragmentation. Similar usage paradigms across all devices can help those less technical (we all know them) to learn their way around and need less help. Having some classic mode means confused people when they accidentally change it or go to a different computer thinking they know Windows 8 but find it totally different. Microsoft don't want the Linux situation of "How do I do X?" to be replied with something like "Well, are you running Gnome, KDE, Unity or are you a command line guy?" (replace with MUI, Classic, custom etc) - most people will simply reply "I don't know".

Windows 8 is designed for more than grumbly techies and band waggoner's, it's a bold goal to unify UI schemas to work on many devices and IMHO it's the future and of course it needs some more work but we should applaud them for trying and be constructive rather than just appealing for backward steps back to anachronistic UIs that were inefficient already. I hated the start menu, it was and fiddly and annoying.

That logic might hold IF Win8 was the prevalent tablet/phone OS, but it isn't, and all the signs are, it never will be.

Also, I dispute the notion that "moaners" are all power users. They might be on here, but as a tech forum, most people here either already are technically astute, or are interested enough to want to be more so. But I come across a lot of people that just want a PC to work, to do their normal mundane tasks, be it online shopping, email, video chats with the kids, WP, accounts, or whatever, with minimal hassle. And if they're using a tablet or mobile phone, it's either Android or iOS, and sure as hell isn't, almost without exception, Windows. This change from MS isn't making their life easier, but harder. The now not only have to cope with changing Android or iOS to Windows on their PC, but between what is very likely Win7 on their office PC, to Android/iOS on tablet/phone AND now Win 8 MUI if they've upgraded. Swit hing between classic and MUI could be as easy as a menu option or a button on the taskbar, so that line won't wash. An if Stardock and others can produce utilities for $5, or even $0, and can adapt from W8 to W8.1 in a matter of days without access to MS internal docs, then I don't accept it as any great burden on MS to provide users with the choice.

I agree it's a bold goal, though. It's a bold goal to shoehorn market share in tablets/phones by leveraging the existing desktop userbase, because they're currently getting totally creamed by Apple and Android in both markets, growing markets I might add, while the desktop market is, at best, stagnant.

If the MUI paradigm actually did a decent job as a desktop UI, I wouldn't mind, but it doesn't. It is an intrusive nightmare that gets in the way of people using PCs the way they have for years.

For me, Win 8 is a good OS but ONLY if I dump MUI. I can, and have, done that with a 3rd party tool. But unless MS change tack on this (which, by the way, I don't expect) Win8 will most likely be my last MS OS.

Given the apparent intent of MS to move to a subscription model, like Adobe have just done for CS, and MS are doing with Office 365, I expect to be migrating away from MS anyway, and have already started. And given the lack of development on Photoshop other than subscription-based, I'm sticking with my current Photoshop, and Win7, for as long as I can or until I get a suitable alternative, and everything else I'm moving off of Windows anyway. I am NOT, personally, paying a subscription either for Windows, or Office, or Photoshop. Not now, not ever. And I see no benefits to me from MUI either.

So my current main "everyday" machine boots either to Win7, Ubuntu or (de-MUI'd) Win 8 depending on which boot drive I use, and it's rarely Win8. And I cancelled a laptop purchase on the basis of not wanting to pay for Win 8 again, and repurposed an old one with Ubuntu.

Nothing I do or say will, obviously, matter a damn to MS, so I might as well jyst do what suits me, which is slowly but steadily ditch Windoes entirely. And as for me EVER buying a Windows tablet, after this move by MS, the chances are zero. Animus even offered (well, kind-of) to give me one, and while I appreciate the offer, I don't even want a free one. If I won one, I'd sell it or give it away.

There is a silver lining, though. I've made a good few quid showing customers frustrated with MUI how to get round it with Start8, etc. It certainly more than paid for my own Win8 licences.

[cjs150]

[QUOTE=kingpotnoodle;39181

Where the hell does this touch on desktop myth rubbish come from. Just because Windows 8 *supports* touch doesn't mean you *must* reach out and fondle it, Windows isn't your dog, it won't get all pissed off and uppity because you don't pet it often enough. Windows 8 is more than usable with a mouse and keyboard if you just learn a few very basic keyboard shortcuts and new methods, if you're at all "good with computers" you should have no trouble. Once you go to desktop mode it's almost exactly like Windows 7 except that to launch programs you now have a full screen 'start' solution which is perfectly competent to start applications with, you can multi task in just the same way as before. It's only MUI apps (which are tablet oriented basic things like Android or iOS apps) that are subject to the 2/3 split limitation, you don't even need them on desktops.
[/QUOTE]


You know that MS considers the current MUI/desktop an interim solution that ultimately is intended to be replaced with everything running from MUI?

Sure you do not need to use touch - w8 sucks if you use a mouse across a large screen you need to use BIG mouse movements to get to the relevant corner of the screen for the right bar to pop up. So your solution is that we all learn the keyboard shortcuts to make the system work? Not exactly a modern way of doing things is it. Change for change sake is nearly always bad - I, like many of the people in our office, still hate what MS did to Office when they introduced the ribbon as being an exercise in ensuring the option you need is never where you think it should be