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Thread: News - Microsoft announces emergency patch for IE's zero-day flaw

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    News - Microsoft announces emergency patch for IE's zero-day flaw

    Windows XP will also receive security update, despite its end of support last month.
    Read more.

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    Re: News - Microsoft announces emergency patch for IE's zero-day flaw

    XP the OS that just wont die, personally i would have left the flaw in XP unpatched.
    It's not like people who still want to use XP couldn't use another browser, or shock horror actually upgrade.

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    Re: News - Microsoft announces emergency patch for IE's zero-day flaw

    Might seem like the obvious answer is to stop patching XP, but it's not that simple unfortunately. Microsoft have got numerous major organisations (various national governments, the NHS etc) paying them to keep XP patched because those organisations are too big to change. So Microsoft have got to produce the patches for their paying customers anyway, and then what are they going to do? NOT give them to anyone else?? They'd never get away with that!
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    Re: News - Microsoft announces emergency patch for IE's zero-day flaw

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    XP the OS that just wont die, personally i would have left the flaw in XP unpatched.
    ... in that case I'm glad you're not in charge then! Apart from anything else, as the article says that there's still 26% of folk using it - do we really want to give the scummy blackhats that large a target to aim for? Don't forget that - as I was reminded recently - a pwned system can still be used for DDoS and spamming attacks on systems that don't have the flaw. Perhaps the old cliché about standing together or hanging separately applies?
    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    It's not like people who still want to use XP couldn't use another browser, or shock horror actually upgrade.
    Actually I thought the same - apart from anything else I find using IE to be a poor experience compared to Chrome or Firefox. However I've come across some discussion that the "broken" bit is one of those components that the OS can also use, so just avoiding IE use (easy) isn't necessarily a guaranteed fix. If this is true it kind of rams home why bolting your web browser deep into the OS is a bad idea.

    I've got XP for a test virtual machine - mainly because I had a spare license and Windows 7 was more resource intensive plus the licensing terms weren't as "compatible". So I'll be firing that VM up shortly to see if I can get the fix.

    I'll leave it to Saracen to explain why some people don't want to be bullied into upgrades, especially if that "upgrade" is to Windows 8.

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    Re: News - Microsoft announces emergency patch for IE's zero-day flaw

    It isn't really bullying.....it's a completely justified business practice. Microsoft already support their products way beyond the point the most others do.
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    Re: News - Microsoft announces emergency patch for IE's zero-day flaw

    Quote Originally Posted by crossy View Post
    ...

    I'll leave it to Saracen to explain why some people don't want to be bullied into upgrades, especially if that "upgrade" is to Windows 8.
    Well, one reason is where XP is running, quite happily, on a machine that just won't run W7 or W8. So, "shock horror actually upgrade" means shock, horror, buying a whole new machine.

    I have XP running on a 550Mhz dual-Pentium 2 machine with 256MB of RAM. Good luck running W7 on that. In fact, it wouldn't even fit on the HD in that machine.

    Another machine is driving a specific piece of hardware, for which drivers later than XP don't exist. If I "shock horror just upgrade" I also have to find a replacement for that hardware, which by the way, works perfectly. So now, I'm buying a whoke new PC, and replacing that hardware, just to upgrade XP? Erm, no.

    I have another machine with a database package running on it. Again, that database doesn't have a later version, because the company moved out of that product line. So, I have about 20 years of data in a customised (by me) database program which runs a central part of my business admin. I could probably find a new package to sort-of do what that package does, but it would take a lot of my time and effort, and even more to transfer history data from that old machine. And I find that history data very useful, so I either have to keep it on an old, XP machine and run something else going forward, ending up with split data, or I have to spend a LOT of time and effort identifying a new package, checking suitability and then writing all the customisations.

    What I don't care about, though, is MS providing a patch for this, or any other, flaw. My XP machines, quite deliberately, don't have any internet connection, because nothing I do on them needs one. The only way they get security-compromised is where someone gets physical access.

    That won't be true for all users, though. I'm probably the exception, not the rule. And, when we bought XP, it's supposed to be fit for purpose. If there's a serious security flaw like this, then I'd say there's a duty to patch it, in order to supply what we all paid for in the first place.

    At it's simplest, if someone has an XP machine and they're happy that it does everything they want of it, which may be nothing more than sending and receiving a few mails and doing some online shopping, why be forced to upgrade. An old lady I know does exactly that, and it's all she does. She's in her 90's, on a very limited income, and she has to buy a new machine in order to run W7 or W8 in order to be able to send and receive a few mails and buy a few bits and bobs using online shopping? I don't think so.

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    Re: News - Microsoft announces emergency patch for IE's zero-day flaw

    I've had this argument before with Saracen, and I think that people's attitude like his are the reason for a lot of security issues in the world and with PC's. I'm not saying it's all roses, and Saracen has on more than one occasion justified his reasons, but surely even the old biddy who only wants to do a few bits and bobs is likely to be the one who is compromised and helps launch a DDOS attack or something?
    People need to move away from XP and it's flaws if they're going to be connected, especially slightly more vulnerable to attack people. If that means getting them a tablet then so be it - but XP should really have been retired years ago. As for big corporations, then they should have budgeted better and more wisely instead of sticking their heads in the sand, I mean it's common knowledge that XP was being retired...

    PS Saracen it's not an attack on you par se but on the attitudes that some people have. You have some specific reasons to not upgrade which you've outlined, but I still feel to a point that you're not very pro-active, something I feel that is quite short sighted and almost arrogant, and is something that many other people share. Those people then go on the t'internet and continue the nice circle of DDOS/bots et al with not a care in the world for the bigger picture...
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    Re: News - Microsoft announces emergency patch for IE's zero-day flaw

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    Well, one reason is where XP is running, quite happily, on a machine that just won't run W7 or W8. So, "shock horror actually upgrade" means shock, horror, buying a whole new machine.

    I have XP running on a 550Mhz dual-Pentium 2 machine with 256MB of RAM. Good luck running W7 on that. In fact, it wouldn't even fit on the HD in that machine.

    Another machine is driving a specific piece of hardware, for which drivers later than XP don't exist. If I "shock horror just upgrade" I also have to find a replacement for that hardware, which by the way, works perfectly. So now, I'm buying a whoke new PC, and replacing that hardware, just to upgrade XP? Erm, no.
    Install a free OS that is designed to run on older machines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    I have another machine with a database package running on it. Again, that database doesn't have a later version, because the company moved out of that product line. So, I have about 20 years of data in a customised (by me) database program which runs a central part of my business admin. I could probably find a new package to sort-of do what that package does, but it would take a lot of my time and effort, and even more to transfer history data from that old machine. And I find that history data very useful, so I either have to keep it on an old, XP machine and run something else going forward, ending up with split data, or I have to spend a LOT of time and effort identifying a new package, checking suitability and then writing all the customisations.
    So how long should Microsoft carry on supporting XP ? Like it or not products reach an EOL and no longer have parts made for them, and the company no longer support them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    That won't be true for all users, though. I'm probably the exception, not the rule. And, when we bought XP, it's supposed to be fit for purpose. If there's a serious security flaw like this, then I'd say there's a duty to patch it, in order to supply what we all paid for in the first place.
    And that is exactly what they have done, when you installed XP you agreed to the license agreement that states...
    "Microsoft warrants that the Product will perform substantially in accordance with the accompanying materials for a period of ninety days from the date of receipt."
    I would say they have gone well past those 90 days.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    At it's simplest, if someone has an XP machine and they're happy that it does everything they want of it, which may be nothing more than sending and receiving a few mails and doing some online shopping, why be forced to upgrade. An old lady I know does exactly that, and it's all she does. She's in her 90's, on a very limited income, and she has to buy a new machine in order to run W7 or W8 in order to be able to send and receive a few mails and buy a few bits and bobs using online shopping? I don't think so.
    No one is forcing them to upgrade, simply side-grade to a version of Linux, there are plenty to choose from. No new hardware needed, no extra cost involved other than time.

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    Re: News - Microsoft announces emergency patch for IE's zero-day flaw

    Just advising XP users to use another browser sadly doesn't cut it. There are many applications out there which embed the IE rendering engine and thus users would/could be affected whether or not they use IE (deliberately).

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    Re: News - Microsoft announces emergency patch for IE's zero-day flaw

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    Install a free OS that is designed to run on older machines.
    I'm intrigued - which free, low-resource OS are you thinking of that will run an entire XP software stack unmodified? Or did you not bother reading the bit where he pointed out that there are a number of business-critical pieces of software and hardware he has that won't run on another OS, or even another version of Windows?

    The fact that 26% of people are still running Windows XP should be enough reason for it to get critical security updates when serious attack vectors become known. Otherwise Microsoft become "the company that allowed one quarter of the world's PCs to be hijacked and turned into netbots".

    If XP was basically obsolete and had a low single-digits percent market penetration, dumping it completely might be justifiable, and indeed that's been the case for most previous versions of Windows 13 years after release. But with XP, the successor was very late, poorly received, and had a new driver model that broke a lot of cross-compatibility. As a result, most people didn't even consider moving away from XP until Windows 7 was released, and by that point many hardware vendors and software companies had given up trying to port old pre-Vista products. For sure that issue isn't just Microsoft's fault, but once they'd created the inertia they were always going to be left supporting XP way after it should have reached natural EOL. They don't really have anyone to blame but themselves.

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    Re: News - Microsoft announces emergency patch for IE's zero-day flaw

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    Install a free OS that is designed to run on older machines.
    Like I said, no drivers for specific hardware.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    Install a free OS that is designed to run on older machines.


    So how long should Microsoft carry on supporting XP ? Like it or not products reach an EOL and no longer have parts made for them, and the company no longer support them...
    I'm not expecting MS to make parts. I'm expecting the "parts" I paid for originally to work, and to carry on working. Nobody (sensible) expects improvements, and unlike physical "parts", code works now as it worked years ago. It doesn't wear out, or need replacing. What it needs, in this case, is for a long-existing and just found fault to be patched.

    As for parts, let's say you bought a car, with a 12 month warranty. After 15 months, or even several years, a fault was discovered that meant there was a real risk of failure csusing a fatal accident. Would you expect the maker to say, "oh well, we know our design flaw might kill you, but it's out of warranty, so go buy a new car".

    Personally, I don't care if MS supply "emergency" patches or not, not least because I haven't applied ANY patches to my XP systems in years, and nor do I have any intention of applying this one. My XP systems aren't broke, and I have zero inrention of risking breaking them by applying patches of any description, unless it directly affects something I do that isn't working, and since everything I do is working, and has for years, no patching for me.

    Are MS legally obliged to continue releasing patches? No.

    Is it reasonable to expect product upgrades? No.

    Is it reasonable to expect major non-emergency flaws to be patched. I'd expect major flaws to have generally come to light by now.

    But major security weaknesses? MS might not be obliged to patch them, but I'd suggest fixing major security issues, even after support is officially withdrawn, is good business and good PR. God knows they need some of that after recent PR fiascos with W8 MUI and the 'fluid' XBOne feature set.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    ...

    No one is forcing them to upgrade, simply side-grade to a version of Linux, there are plenty to choose from. No new hardware needed, no extra cost involved other than time.
    You did read the bit about this being a 90-year old lady .... with no computer background, by the way. And you want her to side-grade to Linux?

    It took her about two years to work out how to get the TV guide on her TV, because the old TV packed up and the "guide" button on the new remote was in a different place. I had to provide written instructions, step by step, to show her how to record, and then play, a program on her video.

    Side-grade to Linux just requiring time? I sincerely doubt she has that much time left, if she worked at it 24/7.

    Even if I did it for her, I honestly doubt she'd ever learn to use it, because whatever version of Linux I used, it would look different.

    Lots of elderly ieople manage life by routine, and changing things throws them. My mother-in-law expects lunch at 12:30 and dinner at 6. If we had lunch at 1pm instead of 12:30, it would throw her off-balance for the rest of the day. And she's nearly 20 years younger than the lady with the XP system.

    If I changed her browser from one to another, say Firefox to Opera, I doubt she'd ever learn to cope. And her PC, those few emails, etc, are basically her lifeline to the outside world. Take that away and I'd expect her will to live to vanish with it.

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    Re: News - Microsoft announces emergency patch for IE's zero-day flaw

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    I'm intrigued - which free, low-resource OS are you thinking of that will run an entire XP software stack unmodified? Or did you not bother reading the bit where he pointed out that there are a number of business-critical pieces of software and hardware he has that won't run on another OS, or even another version of Windows?
    Linux with Wine runs most things, and even if it doesn't no one forced anyone to use an OS with a known end of support data.
    If i had business critical software should i just hope that its going to be supported 10 years from now ? Or should i plan my business around an expected EOL data like the EOL of Windows 7 in 2020, or Win 8 in 2023.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    Like I said, no drivers for specific hardware.
    I have yet to come across hardware that does not have driver support under Linux, what is this specific hardware ? Normally someone has come across a similar situation and written basic drivers.


    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    I'm not expecting MS to make parts. I'm expecting the "parts" I paid for originally to work, and to carry on working. Nobody (sensible) expects improvements, and unlike physical "parts", code works now as it worked years ago. It doesn't wear out, or need replacing. What it needs, in this case, is for a long-existing and just found fault to be patched.
    And the parts you paid for did work, just like the door lock on old cars stopped people from stealing them. That is until the thief's developed new way of exploiting the old technologies such as simple keys and locks, should a car manufacture be responsible to fit a car they no longer make with modern locks, alarm system, and immobilizer ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    As for parts, let's say you bought a car, with a 12 month warranty. After 15 months, or even several years, a fault was discovered that meant there was a real risk of failure csusing a fatal accident. Would you expect the maker to say, "oh well, we know our design flaw might kill you, but it's out of warranty, so go buy a new car".
    What you mean like when cars didn't come with seat belts, or air bags, or when all cars used leaded petrol ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    Even if I did it for her, I honestly doubt she'd ever learn to use it, because whatever version of Linux I used, it would look different.

    Lots of elderly ieople manage life by routine, and changing things throws them. My mother-in-law expects lunch at 12:30 and dinner at 6. If we had lunch at 1pm instead of 12:30, it would throw her off-balance for the rest of the day. And she's nearly 20 years younger than the lady with the XP system.

    If I changed her browser from one to another, say Firefox to Opera, I doubt she'd ever learn to cope. And her PC, those few emails, etc, are basically her lifeline to the outside world. Take that away and I'd expect her will to live to vanish with it.
    So how did they learn to use XP in the first place ? has 12 years robbed them of the ability to adjust to some minor changes.
    There are even Linux Distro's specifically tailored to make the transition away from XP as close to XP's GUI as possible, such as Puppy Linux, or Linux Mint

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    Re: News - Microsoft announces emergency patch for IE's zero-day flaw

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    Linux with Wine runs most things, and even if it doesn't no one forced anyone to use an OS with a known end of support data.
    If i had business critical software should i just hope that its going to be supported 10 years from now ? Or should i plan my business around an expected EOL data like the EOL of Windows 7 in 2020, or Win 8 in 2023.


    I have yet to come across hardware that does not have driver support under Linux, what is this specific hardware ? Normally someone has come across a similar situation and written basic drivers.

    ....
    I was asked why some people chose not to be bullied into upgrading. I did so with several different examples, including why I haven't upgraded some of my machines. I did NOT say I expected support 10 years later for business-critical software. In fact, I said exactly the opposite.

    First, IIRC, I said it was important, not critical. Second, how is anyone supposed to plan for the fact that a package from a big company will be sold, then development refocussed in such a way to take away the functions I need, years later. And the original product, from a "big" company, was IBM, by the way.

    Third, I do have a plan to provide on-going business needs. Specifically, I have enough spare hardware to keep several XP machines running, effectively indefinitely. As isolated platforms, I am at zero risk from net-based incursions, because there is no net connection. None at all. That is the plan. For me, both for hardware and software reasons, keeping those systems exactly as they are keeps them working.

    As for what the hardware is, sorry but if I wanted to publicly discuss that, I would have. One item, though, is a controller board allowing computer control of a specific radio transmitter. And there are no Linux drivers.


    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    ...

    So how did they learn to use XP in the first place ? has 12 years robbed them of the ability to adjust to some minor changes.
    There are even Linux Distro's specifically tailored to make the transition away from XP as close to XP's GUI as possible, such as Puppy Linux, or Linux Mint
    Do you have any experience of how the aging process affects people? If not, let me tell you a couple of things. First, different people "slow down" at vadtly different times, and vastly different rates. Things that people would do without thinking can be insurmountable a year, two of five years later, never mind twelve. And that applies to some between, say, 73 and 78, never mind between 80 and 90+.

    Second, she got used to Win95, then 98, the adapted to XP. That migration was relatively easy, and that 12 years makes a VAST difference.

    And nothing I've said above refers to Alzheimers, or other forms of dementia, though even there, there's a spectrum.

    And finally, her sight was a lot better 12 years ago, and in part, she relies on things being where dhe expects them to be. She can see, but not well. Things you, or even I, would take for granted and not think twice about, are a significant obstacle for her. Any, and I mean ANY change is an obstacle. I wouldn't want to do a W95 to XP upgrade for her now, let alone XP to Win 7 or, God help us, W8 with MUI.

    I said it before, but I'll stress it again, for her, it's the system she's used to, or give up her major link with the outside world, her major contact with kids, and grandkids around the world.

    For her age, she's bright and lively, both in intellect and physically, but she does have challenges. Nonetheless, she gets by living on her own, with some assistance on things like shopping, and getting to hospital.

    It might sound like hyperbole, but it isn't. I think upgrading her would kill her. Oh not directly or immediately, but I think removing that contact would destroy her will to battle on. And from then on, I think it would be a rapid descent, and end. I've seen it happen before, including to my grandmother, when she lost the will to carry on, and it can be rapid, and once started, unstoppable.

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    Re: News - Microsoft announces emergency patch for IE's zero-day flaw

    end of support was mentioned for years - MS should have let XP die and not do this.

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    Re: News - Microsoft announces emergency patch for IE's zero-day flaw

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    I was asked why some people chose not to be bullied into upgrading.
    Well i apologise then. But at what point has Microsoft used force, threatened, or intimidated people into upgrading ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    Do you have any experience of how the aging process affects people?
    Yes, but sadly the world moves on and the best thing we can do is make it easier for people who struggle with that change, at times that doesn't always work. But we do the best job we can because the alternatives are far worse.

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    Re: News - Microsoft announces emergency patch for IE's zero-day flaw

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    Well i apologise then. But at what point has Microsoft used force, threatened, or intimidated people into upgrading ?

    ....
    I thought the word used was "bullied", not any of those. But it wasn't me that used it. As I said, I haven't applied any XP patches in years, and won't be. My guess that "bullied" was perhaps a slightly exaggerated term for the way MS has tried to convince people to upgrade, not least by intimations of the potential consequences of failing to do so. Is "bullied" a mischaracterisation? I'd say it's not wildly off the mark. But when does a dire warning become bullying, or a threat.

    Personally, I'd respond in exactly the way you suggested, that being instead of upgrading to W7 I'd upgrade, or sidegrade to Linux. I already have on a couple of W7 machines rather than put up with W8 MUI, and it's not because I can't get round MUI, if I want to, but as a direct response to the attitude of some MS executives, who appeared to think that if MS said jump, users would all ask "how high". Nuts to that. I jumped alright, from W7 and MS Office to Ubuntu and Libre. I jumped from regularly buying MS products, to not buying them.

    So now, my legacy stuff stays on what it's on, and up-to-date systems are or have migrated to Linux. And MS O/S's? One of my machines has a removable drive cage, and I have one drive with W8 installed, and another with W7 Ultimate. And a third with Ubuntu.

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