Windows 10 unified store starts to appear for Insiders

[shaithis]

Ah Samsung, say no more! I do love their hardware but hate their software.

Both tablets I have had were Samsung ("Tab 2 10.1" and "Tab 4 Pro 10.1") both of them were rooted and installed with Cyanogenmod on the first day I had them. Not only does it solve the problem you encountered but makes the tablets feel like they just got a 300% speed improvement.

[GuidoLS]

Because the OS for a "personal" computer is supposed to be enabling software that allows me to pay for the software ONCE, then configure the machine how I want it, not how some giant corporate wants me to have it. It's not supposed to be a marketing trojan horse enabling MS to data profile me, and THAT is what I find objectionable in having a central MS account that links all sorts of discrete services together, enabling them to build all sorts of metrics and data about me, personally.

And I will no more sign up for Google Play or iTunes, in a way that identifies me personally, than I will for MS. I don't have an iTunes account and never will have. The only Google account I have leads to an email account I've never used, beyond that initial startup. Even the IP address isn't going to help them. I don't even use Google as a search engine, and the sky hasn't fallen in on me yet.

For basic privacy reasons, I won't use such services, and MS look like they're going the same way. If they do, I stop using MS products too. I don't expect MS to notice, or care, unless far larger numbers than I expect do the same, but nonetheless, if they go that route, I go LINUX. I've been expecting this, and have preoared for it, since the Win8 launch, but it looks like my personal L-day is getting closer. Even .... close. If so, shame, but so be it.

It's a store. Just like Steam is a store. Or Amazon, or any other online entity - they all require some kind of ID to purchase products. None of them, as far as I know, require you to purchase an item more than once, to use on the same machine multiple times. There's nothing that's forcing anyone to buy from the Windows Marketplace. Nothing.

As of right now, there is a requirement to set up an account based on an e-mail to download and run Windows 10. It's how they do beta quality control, and has been since at least Vista, and possibly earlier. There was no requirement to maintain it once the release(s) went gold. People are talking 100% convinced of this, or that. A couple of months ago, people were 100% convinced Win10 was going to be a subscription service... they were wrong.

Let the product actually roll out before condemning it to death. I'm as big a Linux fan as most, and even I remember the fiasco with Canonical. And I know a LOT of people that are still mad over the way Red Hat went all commercial... and those were back-door changes. Microsoft has been up-front - more so than ever in its past.

[Corky34]

It's a store. Just like Steam is a store. Or Amazon, or any other online entity - they all require some kind of ID to purchase products. None of them, as far as I know, require you to purchase an item more than once, to use on the same machine multiple times. There's nothing that's forcing anyone to buy from the Windows Marketplace. Nothing.

AFAIK Steam, Amazon, or other stores that are platform agnostic don't have the capability to report how someone is using their computer, like what programs they run, it's bad enough that Microsoft include things like the Customer Experience Improvement Program (CEIP) that we are told doesn't uniquely identify people even though it gathers IP addresses that can now be linked to a Microsoft account.

Sure Steam knows how often and how long i play a game, Amazon knows i have a kettle with built in water filter, but there are limits to what they know.

They don't have a gaming console with built in camera in my home, they don't know how often i phone someone or where i am when i place a call, what software i run on my personal computer and how often i use the start menu along with a plethora of other telemetry about how i use my personal computer, they can't link all that metadata together and attribute it to an individual.

As of right now, there is a requirement to set up an account based on an e-mail to download and run Windows 10. It's how they do beta quality control, and has been since at least Vista, and possibly earlier. There was no requirement to maintain it once the release(s) went gold. People are talking 100% convinced of this, or that. A couple of months ago, people were 100% convinced Win10 was going to be a subscription service... they were wrong.

I wouldn't count those chickens yet.
Windows 10 hasn't even been released, its unknown what's going to happen after the year of free upgrades is over, or what Microsoft consider the lifetime of a device.

Microsoft has been up-front - more so than ever in its past.

For me that's part of the problem, the best prediction of future behavior is past behavior so you'll have to forgive me when i say I'll believe it when i see it.

[Saracen]

It's a store. Just like Steam is a store. Or Amazon, or any other online entity - they all require some kind of ID to purchase products. None of them, as far as I know, require you to purchase an item more than once, to use on the same machine multiple times. There's nothing that's forcing anyone to buy from the Windows Marketplace. Nothing.

As of right now, there is a requirement to set up an account based on an e-mail to download and run Windows 10. It's how they do beta quality control, and has been since at least Vista, and possibly earlier. There was no requirement to maintain it once the release(s) went gold. People are talking 100% convinced of this, or that. A couple of months ago, people were 100% convinced Win10 was going to be a subscription service... they were wrong.

Let the product actually roll out before condemning it to death. I'm as big a Linux fan as most, and even I remember the fiasco with Canonical. And I know a LOT of people that are still mad over the way Red Hat went all commercial... and those were back-door changes. Microsoft has been up-front - more so than ever in its past.

I'm not condemning it to death before rollout. What I said was I don't like the 'direction of travel' and IF it goes where it looks to be going, it goes without me.

We don't yet know if MS are going subscription, so those people weren't wrong. Yet. And I was one that was suspicious of that. I didn't then and don't now claim they WILL go that way, or will straight away, but plenty of signs indicate moves in that direction, bit by bit, chip by chip. And it may not be this year. Or next. Only time will tell, but MS have said themselves bithcthat they see their future as a services company not a software product one, AND that they are changing how they "monetise" Windows. What they didn't say was how they're changing it.

As for Steam, I don't have, or want, a Steam account, though for different reasons. Mainly, I'm simply not forking over money for games that have DRM that allows ANY company to invalidate by ability to play games after I've paid for them. I will not do that, now or ever, under any circumstances.

As for being 100% convinced, you quoted me and said that, but the only thing I'm 100% convinced of is that IF MS go the way it's starting to look, I go a different way. Nothing I've said refers in any way to MS beta program operations. My comments have been about full retail versions.

[Percy1983]

God damn microsoft for trying to make the best unified optional marketplace going and not forcing me to use it.

How evil to give your operating system away and try and make it so you will choose to spend money on services from them.

Oh wait... I am failing to see a problem here.

[Saracen]

It's a near-monopoly product that millions, or billions, of people have been relying on for decades, and what they appear to be doing is changing the entire basis on which it's available.

But who is saying it's "evil" of them?

But if they are also leveraging it into the sort of obnoxious data-gathering exercise that Google is, then yeah, evil isn't a bad word. Again.... IF.

All I'm saying is I don't like the look of the direction of travel, and if that is where they're going, I'm not going with them. If you are, good luck to you. But I'm not, any more than I'm going with Adobe into their monthly subscription model for Photoshop, a product I've been using since v3. But no more, no future versions for me. I'll stick with my current version until (and if) I no longer can, then I'll find a replacement.

[GuidoLS]

AFAIK Steam, Amazon, or other stores that are platform agnostic don't have the capability to report how someone is using their computer, like what programs they run, it's bad enough that Microsoft include things like the Customer Experience Improvement Program (CEIP) that we are told doesn't uniquely identify people even though it gathers IP addresses that can now be linked to a Microsoft account.

Sure Steam knows how often and how long i play a game, Amazon knows i have a kettle with built in water filter, but there are limits to what they know.

They don't have a gaming console with built in camera in my home, they don't know how often i phone someone or where i am when i place a call, what software i run on my personal computer and how often i use the start menu along with a plethora of other telemetry about how i use my personal computer, they can't link all that metadata together and attribute it to an individual.



I wouldn't count those chickens yet.
Windows 10 hasn't even been released, its unknown what's going to happen after the year of free upgrades is over, or what Microsoft consider the lifetime of a device.



For me that's part of the problem, the best prediction of future behavior is past behavior so you'll have to forgive me when i say I'll believe it when i see it.

Had a lot to reply to here, and then got to the video game console with the camera comment, and realized that anything remotely logical would be a complete and total waste of time and effort. Lessons learned. And for the record, Steam and Amazon are a lot of things, but agnostic isn't among them.

[GuidoLS]

It's a near-monopoly product that millions, or billions, of people have been relying on for decades, and what they appear to be doing is changing the entire basis on which it's available.

But who is saying it's "evil" of them?

But if they are also leveraging it into the sort of obnoxious data-gathering exercise that Google is, then yeah, evil isn't a bad word. Again.... IF.

All I'm saying is I don't like the look of the direction of travel, and if that is where they're going, I'm not going with them. If you are, good luck to you. But I'm not, any more than I'm going with Adobe into their monthly subscription model for Photoshop, a product I've been using since v3. But no more, no future versions for me. I'll stick with my current version until (and if) I no longer can, then I'll find a replacement.

On this, we are 100% in agreement. I'm less concerned on the direction Microsoft is going in than you are - they aren't going to do anything to kill their home market, and I seriously doubt they think that the typical home user is willing to pay a subscription for their OS when the other commercial effort, OSX, is essentially free (and usable on the vast majority of new PCs, and a larger number of older ones than people realize.)

And thank you for being one of the few rational PC users that aren't claiming that The Gimp is the best thing since sliced bread.

[Corky34]

And for the record, Steam and Amazon are a lot of things, but agnostic isn't among them.

The word i used was platform agnostic, Steam and Amazon stores are available on many different platforms and don't force people to use only their stores.

And the comment regarding privacy concerns about the data gathered by the Kinect 2.0 are perfectly valid (imho), that is unless you're so trusting of a commercial entity that you believe them when they say we won't spy on you, we won't comply with the law if ordered to grant access, and we can keep the network 100% safe from hackers, then you haven't been keeping up with recent developments.

[crossy]

On this, we are 100% in agreement. I'm less concerned on the direction Microsoft is going in than you are - they aren't going to do anything to kill their home market, and I seriously doubt they think that the typical home user is willing to pay a subscription for their OS when the other commercial effort, OSX, is essentially free (and usable on the vast majority of new PCs, and a larger number of older ones than people realize.)

OS X definitely is NOT "free" - just checked the Apple site and you can upgrade for free, but that obviously presupposes that you've got a copy of OS X to upgrade from. And those cost serious money (unless you're willing to swim in the shark-infested waters of eBay!). For example a non-eBay copy of OS X Leopard is about the same cost as a Windows 8.1 Pro boxed set. And I was under the impression that using OS X on non-Apple hardware was - at best - in a grey area wrt licensing.

And thank you for being one of the few rational PC users that aren't claiming that The Gimp is the best thing since sliced bread.

Maybe I'm being overly sensitive but I really don't think a snide comment against open source advocacy was really necessary. And for the record I'm definitely not one of the Gimp fans - always found it a bit overly complex. But get me onto why I use Ubuntu rather than Windows for everything but gaming and that's more cut and dried.

And a parting shot - re what Corky34 said. Assume you have an XBox One, a Windows 10 PC and a Windows Phone (and at this point Microsoft fans are drooling). Now think what connections an evil corporation could make if you're using the "marvellous" Microsoft unified id. They know what you played, who you were teamed with, who you called and/or texted, etc, etc. And that's not even starting to get into the "fun" if they decide to capture Kinect microphone input or start scanning your Hotlook/Outlook mail. It's actually quite frightening! Where's my tinfoil hat at....

[Saracen]

On this, we are 100% in agreement. I'm less concerned on the direction Microsoft is going in than you are - they aren't going to do anything to kill their home market, and I seriously doubt they think that the typical home user is willing to pay a subscription for their OS when the other commercial effort, OSX, is essentially free (and usable on the vast majority of new PCs, and a larger number of older ones than people realize.)

And thank you for being one of the few rational PC users that aren't claiming that The Gimp is the best thing since sliced bread.

Trouble is, Guido, all the smoke signals coming from MS, by which I mean both actual official statements and reasonable inferences from actual decisions made, suggest that they think their "home" market is changing .... mutating, evolving.

And I've no doubt, no doubt at all, that it is.

Which is why I'm worried about "direction of travel". And for clarity, I mean home/consumer markets, not business/corporate.

There's obviously change in the proliferation and adoption of both smartphones and mobile devices, like tablets. There's changes in the integration of software into the "offering" of such devices, with the various "stores" and so far, for one declared reason or another, be it Steam, or iTunes, or Amazon Kindle, or Android Play, they pretty much ALL seek to exert control over, first, what goes into their 'store', and second, what you can put on 'their' hardware comes, in as far as they can, ONLY from them.

There are, in theory at least, good reasons for that, not least supposedly giving customers assurance that such products are safer, free from malicious elements, etc. Personally, I don't buy it, not least because of how they define malicious, such as unauthorised use of our data, and partly because among less tech-aware users, that engenders a false sense of security. How many people read Android permissions, never mind understand the implications of what they're agreeing to, by accepting and downloading apps from the Play store.

A big, huge even, part of these businesses going forward is going to be user data. These companies are ALL desperate to database the tiniest and most intimate details of our lives that they can get, because that info is hugely valuable. It allows far, FAR more accurate marketing, by targetting to very tightly defined and pre-selected groups of users, be it by age, gender, location, occupation, preferences in clothes, food, music, hobby, whatever. Or, of course, combinations of such.

For me, ANY such collection of data about me, EVEN in a supposedly anonymous or pseudo-anonymous manner, is utterly unacceptable unless it has my express and informed consent in advance, and that is NOT going to be forthcoming, for ANY of these companies, now or at any future time.

One such issue with MS, therefore, is that the more different 'services' they lump together under one unified ID, the more information becomes available about me, personally, as an individual, should they EVER manage to link that unique ID to me, specifically. And of course, if any user with such a unified ID EVER buys something from MS, product or service, that links a credit card to that unified ID, then all that 'unified' but anonymous data just became entirely identified and unanonymised, instantly and permanently.

All that, and much more, is the proverbial genie out of the bottle, the bell that can't be unrung.

So, historically, I have MS products, including Windows but also Office, but MS have no way to identify me, as an individual. Or at least, not without help from an ISP to provide account details for a given IP address at a given point in time, and my ISP will be breaching Data Protection regs big time, if they do that without a court order, etc.

Similarly, the Android tablet I often use for web browsing can't be traced to me individually, because I never, EVER put personal data of any sort, like names, calendar appointments, etc, on it, and it was bought, in person not online, and paid for with cash.

I'm sure lots of people out there regard all this as paranoid, but it isn't. It's really whether we each, as individuals, CARE about our personal info or not. Many people apparently don't, and just shrug. Fair enough, if that's their, or your view. It isn't mine, though. I do care, I DO NOT want these companies building data on me, for marketing or any other purposes unless I explicitly agree to it. If I buy from a company other than by cash, I expect any data to be used ONLY for the purposes of providing those goods, and necessary account maintenance purposes, and NEVER for any form of marketing unless I agreed to it, which by the way, won't be the case.

There are NO reasons I can think of where I would agree to data mining my TV viewing, geo-location data, purchasing habits, web-browsing, phone calls, let alone Kinect-style microphones in my own home, no offers they can make, no products they can inform/market at me, where I would agree.

I take this very seriously. For instance, rarely use debit or credit cards, never provide personal information where not absolutely necessary, and even then ALWAYS carefully opt out of marketing options, and I will not, under any circumstances, use shop 'reward' cards, or the likes of Quidco.

This isn't, despite what some no doubt think, paranoia. Anyone thinking this data mining doesn't happen is, frankly, naive. The only issue is the value judgement of whether you care? If you don't, or do but not much and will sacrifice that for convenience or discounts, fair enough. Your life, your choice.

But I do care, and won't sacrifice my expectation of privacy for ANY remotely realistic inducement marketing companies could come up with. Put it this way, if the offer was to agree to this invasion of privacy, and the inducement was a new car (full size, not toy, etc) fully funded, petrol, servicing, insurance, all included, with NO restrictions on what it was, I'd turn it down. Free Ferrari for agreeing to this intrusion? I wouldn't hesitate for a second to reject it.

So, when I see a direction of travel of Windows heading towards unified IDs, unified hardware and software building 'platforms' designed to spread across ever-larger segments of our lives, to be even able to track our activities, and even towards being a 'services' company providing comouting 'services' like Sky or Virgin provide TV, phone or b/band services, then my response to that direction of travel is 'no way in hell'.

That's not that I think that's what Win10 will be, or that it's happening quite yet. It's that that is what so much of recent decisions and statements from MS suggest is the direction of travel.

[GuidoLS]

OS X definitely is NOT "free" - just checked the Apple site and you can upgrade for free, but that obviously presupposes that you've got a copy of OS X to upgrade from. And those cost serious money (unless you're willing to swim in the shark-infested waters of eBay!). For example a non-eBay copy of OS X Leopard is about the same cost as a Windows 8.1 Pro boxed set. And I was under the impression that using OS X on non-Apple hardware was - at best - in a grey area wrt licensing.

Maybe I'm being overly sensitive but I really don't think a snide comment against open source advocacy was really necessary. And for the record I'm definitely not one of the Gimp fans - always found it a bit overly complex. But get me onto why I use Ubuntu rather than Windows for everything but gaming and that's more cut and dried.

And a parting shot - re what Corky34 said. Assume you have an XBox One, a Windows 10 PC and a Windows Phone (and at this point Microsoft fans are drooling). Now think what connections an evil corporation could make if you're using the "marvellous" Microsoft unified id. They know what you played, who you were teamed with, who you called and/or texted, etc, etc. And that's not even starting to get into the "fun" if they decide to capture Kinect microphone input or start scanning your Hotlook/Outlook mail. It's actually quite frightening! Where's my tinfoil hat at....

Yes to the overly sensitive - I've been an open source/alternative option advocate for as long or longer than most people have thought it was cool to hate on Microsoft. I wrote software for the KDE environment when there was still some serious compatibility problems between KDE, Gnome and XFace. So no, it wasn't a snide remark against open source advocacy - it was a swipe at The GIMP, or more properly, a swipe at people that swear it's the best thing since sliced bread. Because the one thing I despise is absolutes based on the fanboi principle. Doesn't matter if it's MS lovers, or MS haters, or Linux lovers (note my system - I run a dual boot system, including a Slack based system that is so far away from the original that I could give it my own distro name and not be accused of stealing it), or the Hanging Gardens of Apple. I spent hundreds of dollars supporting companies like Loki, and buying games that I'd already paid for in the past, so that there would be some love for Linux.

Re - what Corky said. Be aware that Canonical is leading you down that same path that people are saying Apple has created, and MS is possibly doing. IMO, any good they have done for the community has been completely neutralized by the 'evil' they have done, not only to the community at large, but to the users in general. Just so long as we never forget that they've been caught spying on their customers, all is good.

And speaking solely for myself, I'm a PC gamer, and have been since before that was ever a term used in public. I have no use for a console, and no use for a 'smart phone'. The LG 'feature' phone I have connects just fine to the PC via USB. And, like some here, the day that MS forces everyone into a walled garden, I'll delete that partition on my HD, and I'll already be set up for Linux. And I've managed to get 75% or so of my Windows games to work mostly just fine with Linux.

(as for the Apple comment - the best way to deal with that is to do a purchase as a student. The discount is amazing. Then the upgrades are free. As for the grey area, as long as you aren't selling a computer that isn't marked as an Apple machine, there is no grey area. At least here in the US. No idea how the UK version of the copyright police behave, or misbehave, whichever the case may be.)

[GuidoLS]

@Saracen - not going to quote everything. There's a lot there And I flat out agree with 95% of it. Not sure what Quidco is, but personally, the only 'discount' card I use is for a grocery outfit here called Food Lion, and only because there are no personal identifiers involved (unless one actually chooses to fill out and return the information card - it's not required). I'm as big a privacy advocate as the next person, but I also realize that, at least here in the US, and you may as well include the UK as well, the moment you connect to the net, your privacy has become forfeit. Maybe not directly, but it's no secret that the NSA and GCHQ vacuum every bit of data on the web. What they do with it, I don't know - but they have it.

That being said, I've never used any Microsoft product that required any kind of personal identifier. I've voluntarily registered multiple copies of Windows. There's benefit to that, and so far, there's been no downside. It was certainly never something that I was required to do. I voluntarily gave a valid e-mail address for the purposes of beta testing Win10. So far, there's been no untoward e-mails as a result. There's been no downside that I've seen, and I am far more wary than most people (although I freely admit I'm not quite as private as you).

But you'll have to forgive me if I just shake my head and laugh when I see comments on things like the Kinnect - the solutions are simple. Don't use the Kinnect - it's not required. Unplug the XBone from the net... don't buy the darned thing to begin with. Whatever. (Yes, I realize it wasn't you commenting on the Kinnect - just explaining *MY* mindset on that particular issue.)

And considering the younger generations complete lack of concern with hanging their butt out a window, and taking selfies while doing it, is it any wonder there aren't plenty of organizations that are going to find some way to make coin on it?

Ah well - I hope you and I are just reading the tea leaves differently. Can I see MS pulling an "evil" stunt of some kind or another? I can see ANY company pulling some kind of evil stunt or another. In this case, I'm not seeing the evidence now. If I do, I have no issue admitting error and changing course immediately.

[Saracen]

@Guido - I think the earlier references to Kinect were because the initial implementation of Kinect on the XBOne was, first, it was built-in, and second, was always 'listening'. It's possible to over-react, of course, but where you've installed something with cameras and microphones in your own home, and a link to the net, you're putting a very considerable degree of trust in the company that programmed it. After several TV manufacturers have been caught monitoring what set owners watch, and 'calling home' with that data, I'm afraid I find trust in any of these manufacturers to be in short supply, from me.

On it's own, the Kinect thing is ..... immaterial. Out it with a number of ither decisions and either a trend, or at least the appearance of a trend starts to emerge. I just don't trust that that appearance is hecessarily misleading.

I agree on the provision of a valid email for the Win10 beta. It's why I haven't tried it. And for a beta, fair enough. But if I buy a retail version of Windows, over the counter in a local store, I don't exoect to then have to give MS my address to use it. They haven't YET made that mandatory, but they have made it less and less obvious that there is a 'local account' alternative. And the more 'services' they integrate, the more likely that someone will buy into something they offer. And because any and all metrics they record using the unique ID offered across the board by an MS account unlocks EVERYTHING if you just once associate ANY service, at any time, with physically identifying info, such as payment data for credit card. That unique ID ties it all together.

As for NSA/GCHQ, I regard that as a serious but rather different issue. As long as appropriate safeguards and oversight is in place, I see a marked difference between intelligence services snooping for national security or crime prevention reasons, and corporates doing it so they can sell me stuff.

I don't have a particular probiem with GCHQ, for instance. Anything they find in my emails, phone conversations etc is going to bore them rigid. Corporates have NO valid justification for snooping on me that I find acceptable.

[crossy]

Yes to the overly sensitive - I've been an open source/alternative option advocate for as long or longer than most people have thought it was cool to hate on Microsoft. ... Because the one thing I despise is absolutes based on the fanboi principle.

Fair enough - sometime easy to get the "wrong end of the stick". I tend to go on the defensive because of too many encounters with the "if you didn't buy it from MS or Apple then it's manure" attitude. Some of those from people who really should know better.

Re - what Corky said. Be aware that Canonical is leading you down that same path that people are saying Apple has created, and MS is possibly doing. IMO, any good they have done for the community has been completely neutralized by the 'evil' they have done, not only to the community at large, but to the users in general. Just so long as we never forget that they've been caught spying on their customers, all is good.

Canonical definitely aren't "good", but neither are they the zenith of evil, (my personal nomination for that "honor" is Oracle). And they - Canonical - seem to be winding back a bit from the "we do everything" setup - e.g. the cloud storage project being shelved.

And speaking solely for myself, I'm a PC gamer, and have been since before that was ever a term used in public. I have no use for a console, and no use for a 'smart phone'.

Again, fair enough, although the lack of "smartphone" puts you in a seeming minority. I refuse to get all "zealot" about any device - it's just a tool, so the more useful the more I like it. I do have a console - an XBox 360 - and it's pretty reasonable in that it's a gaming system that causes me a lot less hassle than the darned Microsoft PC.

(as for the Apple comment - the best way to deal with that is to do a purchase as a student. The discount is amazing. Then the upgrades are free. As for the grey area, as long as you aren't selling a computer that isn't marked as an Apple machine, there is no grey area. At least here in the US. No idea how the UK version of the copyright police behave, or misbehave, whichever the case may be.)

Hmm, dubious. Over here (last time I checked) you had to prove that you actually were a student. Although if a certain large US conglomerate has it's way then I might be a student, (or more likely joining the ranks of those seeking new "employment opportunities" - so much for this "marvellous" recovery that our politicians keep telling us we're enjoying).

[Tabbykatze]

There's a thin fine line between paranoia and taking measures for your own security, careful which way you drift.