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With Denmark considering cash-free shops, could the UK follow suit?
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With Denmark considering cash-free shops, could the UK follow suit?
I been looking strange at people with cash for last decade.. seriously who uses cash any more.
Got to be honest I never carry cash so I'm all for making cashless living more easy however it seems unfair to force this on people. Couldn't they keep using a carrot rather than a stick?
Kids don't have cards.... So no more popping to the shop for sweets or comics.
There's a place for cash - under my mattress :-)
cards all they way. Any coins i have my son steals them.
I'm all for it!
But I hear a lot of people who say they are less inclined to spend a lot if they use cash instead of card. Maybe it's a student thing...
hey, I still use cash. have my reasons for doing it, main one being I haven't changed my bank account to a card based one yet. that's besides the point though. ;)
as to the question of a cash-less high street, well Southport is turning into a shop-less high street so if the UK does go that route it will be very easy to implement around here.
But who is paying the bill for all the digital transactions taking place ? for anything below a tenner 100 dkr ? The baker i used to frequent in Denmark, did not take any cards since most of the shopping is below a fiver and it would cost 5 pence 50 øre pr transaction for the shop. And a small afterthought, the big country south of Denmark Germany :P they hardly uses any card transaction on the high street, last i was there, back in 2000, i and some friends drove through Germany to go to france and stopping at a mcdonalds there, we couldn't pay since all we had was card, and they didnt take cards :P
At this point and time in history, this would NOT work in the US. Denmark, as a nation, has a smaller total population than multiple large cities here, and what works well there (or multiple other European nations, EU or not) won't work here, simply based on scale. I'm not certain if this is a good thing or not.
As for me, I'm cash and carry on smaller (<$250) purchases, and bank card on larger items, with paper checks used for payment of utilities, in person.
HAHA yeah right, with UK shops mostly not accepting cards for low transactions and sometimes not accepting higher expense cards like american express...
uk wont be coinless for at least a decade and more if nothing changes
We're nowhere near ready. Having a physical currency to spend, gives you a strong sense of how much you're spending, while spending digitally takes that sense away and can lead to people spending a lot more then they would have imho.
Wouldn't work in cash centric Japan for a long, long time. Whereas back in the UK, I rarely withdraw more than a tenner or twenty quid at a time as I know it would last me ages since I pay most transactions by card, here in Japan, it isn't uncommon for me to withdraw a hundred quid just so that I don't have to make another withdrawal soon. It is hard enough in Tokyo (unless you stick to high end establishment), but head to to smaller towns and it is definitely cash only. It does help I suppose that crime rate is low over here, so you don't have to worry as much.
I do and I pay for everything with cash. A cashless society is a controlled society.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smikis
Once NFC/eCash payments take off for smaller purchases, I can really see this flying.
Regarding people mentioning the costs. If the nation were to get rid of coins and notes then the Government would lean a lot hard on banks to reduce these and I would not be surprised if the savings from no longer printing money (which is surprisingly expensive quick Google shows that for the USA it's about 10 cents per bill, or 5 cents for $1 and $2 bills) are used to form some kind of tapered subsidiary.
Rural areas will always pose an issue, some form of caching (your cash...*snigger*) and 'calling home' feature will be required I'd imagine.
Works for me though. Coins and paper to represent money seems oddly archaic IMHO. But something is only worth what people think it is.
Good on Denmark for being progressive in these matters though.
I very rarely carry a card around with me, and like not having to. When I go to work, all I have is my bus pass and about a fiver in change for emergency. I'd hate having to take a card in, as the area where we store our belongings isn't completely safe IMO. Also, how would stuff like this work for staff collections for birthdays etc? IMHO I think it completely limits freedom, and like others have said, no more kids being able to buy a comic or sweets. What happens to some poor homeless person maybe busking hoping to get a bit of money for the day? They wouldn't be able to get a card, and people certainly wouldn't start taking them to a cash machine! Having cash means more control and discipline over what you spend, and I notice in my personal experience that alot of people who pay with a card only often are the same people who have no discipline regarding money too, and are often in debt. It's an out-of-sight, out-of-mind thing, whereas with cash you can physically see the money go down in your wallet/purse, and it makes you think before you buy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smikis
A cashless society is a huge threat to freedom. With ultimate control with the banks and we are all feeling what happens when banks do what they like. Where governments and banks can take you cash from your accounts without your permission...Just like Cyprus...Remember Northern rock when people queue tried to get their savings out...How are you going to do that with no cash?
I only use cards for big purchases, for everything else i prefer cash.
Heaven sent opportunity for Government/Big Brother to keep an eye on everyone.
Being cashless is no problem for Corporations and those who have enough money to have accountants and lawyers to move funds around seamlessly. This is a scheme to make sure that those on the lower and middle economic scale pay every penny the government can wring out of you, after all its easier to make and collect pennies from everyone than get pounds from the wealthy.
What happens when I want to pay my window cleaner? Does he now need to buy and carry a card machine? And I suppose I can't get my windows cleaned or hair cut without paying the bank a percentage .... for doing what, exactly??
I use cash almost exclusively. Most months my card bill = £0, and I could easily manage without cards, 99.9% of the time. They're only used for larger purchases, and not always even then. And things like foreign car hire.
The only way I'm going cashless is if I starve if I don't. I hope to NEVER see a society where I'm forced to use cards. And as for phone payments, that's 1000 times worse than NFC cards, IMHO. And I sent my NFC card back to the bank and told them I wanted a non-NFC card.
With a cashless society how do transfer electronic money from person to person? Will every vagrant,drug dealer,corner musician or street walker have to have electronic money transfer facilities?
Will cashless society mean the end of ATMs?
How secure are cashless systems, were is the cash kept, centrally at your bank or on the electronic device used to pay the bill with? I often have to wait behind someone paying by card for a very small amount money, while I always pay cash which takes a lot less time!
I keep my bank cards which have near field payment facilities in a metallized bag to stop accidental payments!
Keep cash! that what I say!:rockon:
Services like Square are popping up in the US, which allow card processing for small business or sole traders via smartphone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saracen
So it's 2015, and we're only now asking the question "could we handle not exchanging goods and services for piles of shiny pebbles and pictures of old ladies"?
"Is the high street ready for not exchanging goods for chickens and goats?"
So I've got to buy a smartphone, which I don't want, in order to pay for window cleaning?Quote:
Originally Posted by directhex
A lot of small traders will accept direct bank transfers for the convenience of not having to carry large amounts of cash about, or frequent trips to the bank to pay it in.
On the other hand, accepting cash is a method of tax evasion as there is no audit trail.
I very rarely use cash. The 'minimum transaction' issue is one that I encounter very rarely, and that can be solved through alternate payment infrastructures. For example: Bitcoin. There's lots of whinging and sillyness about using it as a currency, but that's kind of missing the entire point. Bitcoin is a payment processing system with dramatically lower transaction fees and effectively no initial buy-in cost, a competitor to Mastercard and Visa rather than a competitor to Sterling or Dollars. It's perfect for handling low-value transactions that would traditionally be the realm of physical cash (where the lack of a built-in chargeback is a non-issue and handled legally rather than technically), with higher value transactions benefiting from the chargeback system of current payment processors. That's not to say a chargeback infrastructure could not be layered on top of the Bloakchcain network though, but so far no-one has done so.
Square (and similar devices) are for RECEIVING credit and debit-card payments.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaracenSo I've got to buy a smartphone, which I don't want, in order to pay for window cleaning?Quote:
Originally Posted by directhex
Technically, we could. Should we? Probably not. There's value in having physical currency tokens. For one, they don't come with an ass load of metadata attached to you.
You assume of course that cash is free to businesses to process? Our standard tariff for processing cash over a counter is int the £0.60/£100 region. Maybe £0.20 if you use a van, but then G4 are charging you as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saracen
Assuming it goes through the books contactless will be as cheap or cheaper than cash for most businesses, and following the change in regulation on interchange lots of chip & pin transactions will be as well. Debit card transactions aren't a % by the way, its usually somewhere between 10-50p/transaction depending on the acquirer and the type of goods you're buying.
I think most people haven't read the article properly. The proposed legislation is to remove the requirement for certain businesses to have to accept cash, not to require them not to.
I prefer cash, only use card for online / large purchases.
I loathe the way merchant services are so costly to my family's business :( , so the thought of cashless society makes me :censored: .
People come in with a card expecting them to take it for very small purchases (<£5) or on items which they make less than 5% profit.
For example they generally make GP of 20% that would mean out of each £5 they take they make £1 (before tax/running costs). The bank then take 15p out of that when a buyer pays with card, they lose 15% profit out of that transaction! and that's not taking into account the monthly charges they have to pay for the terminal and business account!
News stories of when banks state card transactions account for such a low percentage of a purchase amount should come and speak to small retailers.
Consumers think merchants services are free! they are not!
They also pay higher rates for the so called "Premium Credit / Debit cards" , the ones where the customers get points / % rebates.
Rant over, sorry :embarrassed:.
It's a fair rant, and banks aught to be more reasonable about merchant charges, especially for small businesses. It's not like they're not making an absurd amount of cash on the interest of the balance.Quote:
Originally Posted by gupsterg
The variance is going, and if you're paying 15% for credit cards they're getting bent over (unless they sell furniture or something). TBh even at 15p for debit cards they're getting a crap deal. Barclaycard will do it for less just on their published pricing, never mind if they get a decent broker.Quote:
Originally Posted by gupsterg
Terminals and such are expensive, but no more so than tills, its a cost of doing business. I imagine I'm not alone in not shopping places where I know they won't take cards, so unless I'm desperate for something they wouldn't make 85p, they'd make nothing.
Perhaps my reply is not in the context of your post.Quote:
Originally Posted by peterb
We dispose of it at wholesalers, as banks charge fees on cash deposits into bank account. Another method that can be used is deposit cash in your personal account then do electronic transfer to your business account.
I agree and disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by peterb
Our size of business means we are VAT registered, we have to provide till rolls as proof of sales with accounts plus from purchases invoice of goods we sell anyone can gauge what we should be making / declaring.
These goods we buy to sell are from VAT registered wholesalers, another paper trail.
Then there is the means test if your investigated ie what you own and lifestyle.
We have a thing called paypoint, which people want for bills , etc. You need to offer the same service as other so you don't miss out on trade. Other merchant services don't offer these facilities and having two sets of monthly fees works out not cost effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by herulach
Yes credit cards are 2.0% (IIRC), but less transactions on that payment method, even on £5 transaction we lose 10p out of £1 profit.
Once companies have you in a contract they also have the right to change these fees, it's in the small print of all of them and usually you can't get out. My family been doing this business now for over 25yrs and all promise x and deliver something else when in a contract.
We've had paypoint change the rate of commission they pay us on services change about 4 times in the past 1.5yrs of a 5yr contract :( .
I agree it is a cost of doing business, I just wanted to share what it does cost.Quote:
Originally Posted by herulach
I feel a cashless society would mean us bearing the costs.
I just don't see why carrying £5-£50 is so inconvenient / insecure for people, small retailers are losing 10-15% of their profit plus other fees they pay and this calc is based on £5 spend with £1 GP.
Banks are still getting a percentage of each non-cash (I.e. used to be cash) transaction, which was my point, not that they're getting a percentage transaction fee.Quote:
Originally Posted by herulach
And agreed about the "requirement" issue, but it's the thin end of the wedge. We all know where it's intended to end up.
As for charges for handling cash, I'm aware of that. First, I run a business. Also, I'm fully aware of why supernarkets always seem to ask card-paying customers "Want any cash back?"
But my points aren't about businesses with large cash handling issues, but about a cashless society where none of us can make small payments without having to use digital methods, being it card or e-payment.
No. Your window cleaner can use a smartphone and a Square dongle (or similar like PayPal Here) as an EFTPOS terminal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saracen
Where would it stop?
The local boot fair and private items in local papers would be a thing of the past if the seller had to accept card payment.
I still maintain the underlying reasons are that state bodies want to know what you are doing, who with and why, 24/7. They want to wring out of you every last penny to pay for an increasingly bloated governmental system.
I pay no more for a casback credit card than I do for a standard one, but I do get money back, so I save money over the year.Quote:
Originally Posted by gupsterg
I work as a volunteer in a community shop. We are actively looking at taking card transactions for small purchases for customer convenience and to reduce cash handling. The transaction fees for a debit card transaction of £5 is less than 3p, and for a credit card less than 15p. Yes, it adds to the overhead, which we will absorb, but greater convenience and security all round, as the cash ends up straight in the bank, with an audit trail. Less risk of theft or mis-accounting.
If you are VAT registered your accounting system will be more robust and you will be issuing and receiving VAT invoices, but if you are doing that, the thought of receiving and carrying large wedges of cash is a potential security nightmare. I get nervous if I have more than £20 in my wallet.Quote:
Originally Posted by gupsterg
But if that suits your workflow....
But I'm sure the same arguments were applied 40 or 50 years ago when companies moved away from paying employees in cash and moved to direct bank transfer. Would you really want to go back to that? (Perhaps only if you are a small trader). Reducing the transfer and storage of cash is a reduction in the opportunity for violent crime (although digital banking carries a new set of security risks)
Cashless spending is just the logical extension of the general trend away from cash.
Yes it wont be long till they bring in the rsd-chip inserted in our hands or wherever
THE MARK OF THE BEAST WILL BE HERE SOON the embedded chip
and only true Christians will refuse this.
the devils crowed will all accept it
read the bible its all in there, the one world currency, one world Government, one world church,
the globalist are winning, big corporations big business, rich get richer, poor get poorer
Are you high?Quote:
Originally Posted by tomthum
Yes you do but our merchant services provider may class that card as "Premium card" and we have to pay higher processing fee. IIRC business cards are the highest fees, 2nd is Premium cards, 3rd is std cards and lowest is contact-less.Quote:
Originally Posted by peterb
That is a magical rate IMO, even on our last discussion with a company (can't recall name but can fish out emails) they were only bettering Paypoint by a 1p or 2 on DC and perhaps 0.5% on CC but we lost bill payment / top ups and other services for customer / competing with other businesses that offer it. It would help us and perhaps others I know if you could share by PM who you use?Quote:
Originally Posted by peterb
Prior to Paypoint we were with a company called PostTS (2004 was sign up), that had no monthly fee and low rates. They got taken over by Payzone, initially they kept the terms of the PostTS agreement. We left them in 2013, every year they kept changing things on commission payments for top-up / bill payments and merchant services. Every year was a rolling contract and you got notification of changes upon renewal but you had to have given notice 3months earlier IIRC. We only stayed with them for so long as nothing else seemed any better on rates and didn't wanna lose money on changing terminals and downtime of acquirer change.
We don't issue invoices as such but perhaps a till receipt, it's a convenience store. I can see how large wedges of cash can seem like security nightmare but we go wholesaling 3 times a week and it's disposed of. We never really go over the sum which is insured for holding on premises. Cash in transit and goods are also covered, the insurance extra for all this is only a very small percentage of overall cost of policy a year or negligible IIRC as they are commercial policies.Quote:
Originally Posted by peterb
No I wouldn't. BT / DD don't cost us anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by peterb
I can agree this statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by peterb
Unless you till rolls/receipts are carefully designed, they may not be acceptable for VAT purposes. They must have VAT number, tax point date, amount and rate of VAT. I'm sure you would have that covered if you are VAT registered though.
I've PMd you.
Cashless society means ultimate control of wealth by government and corporate entities that you'll be unable to prevent from raiding your bank account as they see fit. It not really about how you pay the window cleaner for services etc..Its about control.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...vings/2595837/
What about the convenience of customers that want to pay cash?Quote:
Originally Posted by peterb
Don't get me wrong. Taking small value card payments, or contactless e-payments, for customers that want it is fine. I don't have a problem with that. I do have a problem with shops going cashless. Any shop doing that will lose any chance of business from me unless every possible source of whatever I'm buying has done likewise.
Entirely agree. The window cleaner example is just that. My two principle reasons for prefering cash are privacy and control.Quote:
Originally Posted by rob4001
I live in Denmark, so I would be directly affected by this. For several reasons I sincerely hope this doesn't come to pass, however.
First of all, many elderly people aren't used to anything but cash and really shouldn't be forced to. I know for a fact that my mum neither can nor wants to have anything to do with a credit card.
Secondly, I might be wrong here, but in my opinion if you're paying by card you don't have as strong a connection to the money you're actually parting with. I'd go as far as to say that paying by card makes you more prone to using money you might not actually have and too many people are already spending way above their means. There're TV shows here featuring people needing debt restructuring. With a cashless society they probably won't run out of partakers for a while.
Last, but not least. A major reason listed by our government for cashless transactions is supposed to be lowered costs for businesses and the creation of new jobs. I can't really see that happening and neither can the political opposition. For in the end what this boils down to is propaganda for the imminent election here in Denmark. Sometime before 2015 is out we have to elect a new government, which means that right now there's all sorts of pre-election promises flying around.
Oh, and one more thing (tm), even though most of our money is already just bits in memory somewhere, right now I can still go down to my bank and get my money in physical form. Granted, this physical form isn't worth the value it denominates and is far far away from the gold standard, but it still beats purely electronic cash. Virtual money is virtual money. Here for the moment, gone the next.
We won't stop taking cash, it's an additional service that we have been asked to provide. Most of our transactions are under £10.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saracen
Indeed, but the thread subject was about a cashless high street.Quote:
Originally Posted by peterb
But unless you are completely cash driven and don't have a bank account at all, you cannot avoid that. It would be next to impossible to do online shopping (for example) without a bank account with a debit card.Quote:
Originally Posted by rob4001
Which doesn't matter if you don't shop online, but are you paid in cash? How do you save up for a large purchase, obtain credit for very large purchases?
Even paying utility bills becomes a faff if you are paying cash.
Cash is so much comfortabler under the mattress than credit/debit cards and is a better insulater. ;-)
Am trying to get enough under mine so that my nose touches the ceiling when laying flat on my back. :-)
Try having the ceiling lowered! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Myss_tree
Sounds expensive. If only he could pay for such a service with cardQuote:
Originally Posted by peterb
No that'll be strictly cash in hand mate, know what I mean nudge nudge...Quote:
Originally Posted by directhex
Try not to burn your bum on the light-bulb when doing a bit of rumpy-pumpy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myss_tree
Those stone age people who refuse to buy smartphones will be taken to the square and shot. That's why the service is called Square.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saracen
Gulp!Quote:
Originally Posted by ET3D
Anyone got a blindfold I can borrow?
By 'borrow', I mean you can it retrieve yourself once I, umm, am .... finished .... with it.
I think the consensus from everyone here is that the UK is not ready for this. Denmark is different, their social and monetary systems have changed in regards to physical moneys.
I'm not quite Saracen, but I like physical monetary for a lot of reasons, but a digital age is a digital age so both have their places. As the world becomes more digitised, physical money may cease to exist or we will turn into a Judge Dredd society where we use credit chips xD
I'm not sure I would completely support doing away with cash but for the past decade I've hated carrying cash, I always use my card where I can, it allows me to spend exactly what I need to without getting a pocket full of change afterwards, for convenience, space and time saving it's significantly better than carrying cash, how many times have you had a fiver in your pocket and then had to go withdraw an odd amount or cash to pay for something, the time wasted on this annoys me.
I feel the digital medium gives you more control over your spending than the physical, it's all mindset I suppose, there are some people that still can't wrap their heads around the idea of digital money and spend more than they need to. I certainly don't have this problem and in fact I find that when using cash you are almost always going to have spare or left over change from purchases, which encourages people to spend it.
It should remain a choice, forcing it would just be another way for authorities to control and monitor the population. Another problem is that if there's an issue with the banks or machines you're totally screwed unless you have cash on you, it's always nice to have backup.
Finding an electronic payment card down the back of the sofa just wont have the same feel to it.
Did everyone completely ignore my post? I'm living in Denmark and we're really not much different to the UK, when it comes to money. Yes, debit cards are widespread here, but not everyone uses them and pretty much for the same reasons people in the UK don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabbykatze
We'll be ready for "cashless high streets" when the high streets become merely a collection of coffee bars, fast food chains and trendy boutiques. IMHO, it's only the large chains that have the size to be able to absorb the overheads of cashless - I can't see the banks giving machines FOC and not levying some kind of "handling charge" on cash sized transactions.
Cashless might (actually scratch that, "probably will") become the preferred route for purchases in the cities and larger towns, but I can't see it happening in the "provinces". As many have said above there's privacy and fiscal control reasons why plastic "ain't best".
And that's assuming that whatever cash system is adopted is sensible. Our local council introduced a card system for paying for school dinners. Trouble is that that (expletive deleted) card top up machines don't take paper notes only accept a limited selection of coins, and there's no "bank transfer" type option neither. So Sunday night becomes a scavenger hunt for any pound coins so the kids can have school dinners through the week.
I am ready for high streets where we don't need to pay for anything.
Already had that - Tottenham August 2011.Quote:
Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH
How will the homeless cope? Or those who are refused bank accounts?
How will black market sales take place? Second-hand goods (carboot sales!)?
I think we are a LONG way from this being a flyer in the UK. Some countries, sure but most are far from it.
There is very little I pay for in cash but I still do use it and I feel I am at the more extreme end of the people that don't use cash much.
In the near future, I see high streets void of shops except for food banks with tins of Soylent Green in plentiful supply. No one will have any money due to all work done by AI robots which are also planning revolution! (Not good!)
Any electronic money systems will ever suffer front rampant electronic forgery by snotty nose kids, therefore wiping out any value the electronic pound may have had or viruses designed by nasty people to destroy the banking system or over head nuclear bomb using the EMF generated to send us back to the stone age, a present front North korea. Digi watches may not work after such an event!
Any power cuts or computer problems in the cashless control system, instantly reduces everybody to the same level of spending power ie broke & with mounting brokeness due not being able to service expensive and excessive rates of interest from your local friendly payday lender! (broken legs not included!)
The high street banks will probably vanish completely due to a cashless society! Bank robbers will be unemployed!
At least in a cashless society, it would cure the moral problem when you are given a forged note in your change and what to do with it! take to the police etc and therefore lose the spending power of it or pass it on to some snotty nose checkout person!:)
No we're not.
Yes we are using cards for greater number of transactions, when they get the mechanism right we will use our phones to pay for stuff also. However I do not want a society that is totally cashless as that one is ripe for the state to control who what and when you can do something.
i hope it comes asap, coin change is a utter waste of time and effort. Scrap anything less than 10p too.
Use your phone or contactless card or watch.
A lot of it is cashless now; it's just the last mile that isn't 100%. :)
I agree with some previous points that cash-less would possibly cause people to spend more due to the psychological aspect of you not seeing immediately your money diminishing. It's not necessarily a good idea from a consumer point of view!
One of the thing I wonder about going cashless, is how that is going to work out for minors, short-term immigrants and tourists. I imagine that the card will have to be linked to some kind of bank account, but depending on the country, may not be available until a certain age. People on temporary leaves may also have difficulty opening bank accounts, again depending on the country. And unless the cost of foreign transactions is decreased significantly, tourists going to a card-only country could end up paying quite a lot as they add up all the micro-transactions (coffee, snack, transports etc.).
I am not convinced we are ready. I am convinced it can be done eventually, but it'll take time and a lot of investment in establishing a cost effective, efficient infrastructure.
Japan, at the moment is basically an efficient antithesis of a cash-less society. The infrastructure is in place to pay almost everything by cash. Even utility bills and pretty much every on-line orders can be paid in cash either through a convenience store available everywhere, or in the case of online orders for products, can be paid on delivery directly to the courier knocking on your door.
People who don't want every single move/bought item tracked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smikis
I really don't want all my spending tracked. I get enough spam and "helpful" adverts as it is.
Finally somebody with brains who understands a few things about this. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by iranuI do and I pay for everything with cash. A cashless society is a controlled society.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smikis
I also pay with cash everywhere and resent using a card. Paying with cash is some of the last freedoms they want to take away from you. First thing about using a card is - they can track everything you pay for. Second thing about using cards is - the highway robbers that call themselves bankers these days make money on every transaction you make, which is not the case if you use cash.
Think about it. Cheers!