Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 16 of 31

Thread: Zen based APU with HBM to be AMD Carrizo successor

  1. #1
    HEXUS.admin
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    30,489
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked
    1,943 times in 684 posts

    Zen based APU with HBM to be AMD Carrizo successor

    Reveals a paper co-authored by AMD Fellow and graphics engineer, Mike Mantor.
    Read more.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    579
    Thanks
    42
    Thanked
    13 times in 13 posts
    • DemonHighwayman's system
      • Motherboard:
      • MSI Z97I Gaming
      • CPU:
      • Intel i7 4790K
      • Memory:
      • 16Gb 2.4Ghz Kingston Beast
      • Storage:
      • 256 Gb Samsung 850 Pro (Main), 4TB Toshiba X300 (games), 2TB External TV/Films HDD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • KFA2 RTX 2070 EXOC
      • PSU:
      • Coolermaster Real Power M700
      • Case:
      • Bitfenix Prodigy
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10
      • Monitor(s):
      • Asus PB278Q
      • Internet:
      • Yes most of the time

    Re: Zen based APU with HBM to be AMD Carrizo successor

    Interesting story but what a weird graphic with all its garlic and onions - whoosh, it went straight over my head.

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    ATLANTIS
    Posts
    1,021
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked
    25 times in 23 posts

    Re: Zen based APU with HBM to be AMD Carrizo successor

    cough cough coug Intel HD and nvidia the new trend is here: consumers who are poor (like me) can't afford laptops with a 960m or those with an intel HD IRIS graphics (which is slow by the way). Nvidia do not make CPU's while intel are not good with GPU's. APPLE and SAMSUNG will soon be going the AMD way. The next 3 years will be a windfall for AMD. SONY PS-5 with HBM...XBOX with HBM......

  4. #4
    Registered+
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    78
    Thanks
    9
    Thanked
    3 times in 3 posts
    • robredz's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus M5A97 Evo Rev 2
      • CPU:
      • AMD FX8350
      • Memory:
      • !6 Gb (4 x 4) Corsair Vengeance DDR 3 1600
      • Storage:
      • Ix Toshiba Sata 3 3 Tb, 1 X WD Sata 3 500 TGb, 1 x Maxtor Sata 3 1 Tb 2 x 200 Gb Maxtor Sata 2
      • Graphics card(s):
      • PNY Nvidia 760 2 Gb
      • PSU:
      • XFX 850 Watt Core edition
      • Case:
      • Casecom CS 13
      • Operating System:
      • Ubuntu Studio X64 Dual Boot with Windows 7 pro
      • Monitor(s):
      • 2 X Dell U2311H

    Re: Zen based APU with HBM to be AMD Carrizo successor

    How do they square the shared memory circle, as in using system RAM will always be slower than dedicated VRAM.

  5. #5
    Not a good person scaryjim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Gateshead
    Posts
    15,186
    Thanks
    1,227
    Thanked
    2,290 times in 1,873 posts
    • scaryjim's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Dell Inspiron
      • CPU:
      • Core i5 8250U
      • Memory:
      • 2x 4GB DDR4 2666
      • Storage:
      • 128GB M.2 SSD + 1TB HDD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Radeon R5 230
      • PSU:
      • Battery/Dell brick
      • Case:
      • Dell Inspiron 5570
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10
      • Monitor(s):
      • 15" 1080p laptop panel

    Re: Zen based APU with HBM to be AMD Carrizo successor

    Quote Originally Posted by DemonHighwayman View Post
    ... what a weird graphic with all its garlic and onions ...
    You probably want to add a fairly large pinch of salt to those alliums...

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    ATLANTIS
    Posts
    1,021
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked
    25 times in 23 posts

    Re: Zen based APU with HBM to be AMD Carrizo successor

    a good APU GPU running on 2400mhz DDR4 will experience a jump in performance. If AMD will add an eDRAM just like intel IRIS to the mix will further improve bandwidth on cheap laptops/AIO. On the midrange laptops (~$800) they might add a 4GB HBM 2.0 to the APU.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    519
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked
    55 times in 31 posts

    Re: Zen based APU with HBM to be AMD Carrizo successor

    Those buses are merely internal APU buses for clever communication between the CPUs and GPUs within the APU in order to enabled HSA.

    It looks like they're squaring the shared memory circle by putting a large HBM L4 cache on the APUs. The worst config (1 stack of HBM1) would give 1GB of L4 and 128GB/s of bandwidth, which would unlock the APU's GPU ability well. I feel that a two-stack, HBM2 solution is viable, so that could be 2/4 GB and 512GB/s (perhaps for the 2017 APUs).

    Other AMD documents also note that they are looking at HBM stacks with embedded GPU logic in the base die - they think they can fit 12 CUs per stack at 14nm - but there are power consumption considerations.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    ATLANTIS
    Posts
    1,021
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked
    25 times in 23 posts

    Re: Zen based APU with HBM to be AMD Carrizo successor

    HBM will be used by the GPU only. CPU will use DDR4. Maybe the cheaper versions of ZEN APU will use the shared DDR4 and possibly add an eDRAM to boost the GPU.

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    3,157
    Thanks
    436
    Thanked
    400 times in 278 posts

    Re: Zen based APU with HBM to be AMD Carrizo successor

    It will? Is that just speculation or do we have something more concrete to go on.

  10. #10
    Not a good person scaryjim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Gateshead
    Posts
    15,186
    Thanks
    1,227
    Thanked
    2,290 times in 1,873 posts
    • scaryjim's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Dell Inspiron
      • CPU:
      • Core i5 8250U
      • Memory:
      • 2x 4GB DDR4 2666
      • Storage:
      • 128GB M.2 SSD + 1TB HDD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Radeon R5 230
      • PSU:
      • Battery/Dell brick
      • Case:
      • Dell Inspiron 5570
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10
      • Monitor(s):
      • 15" 1080p laptop panel

    Re: Zen based APU with HBM to be AMD Carrizo successor

    Quote Originally Posted by lumireleon View Post
    HBM will be used by the GPU only.
    Got any references for that? HBM is simply a form of volatile memory: there's no reason it has to be used only for GPUs...

    Quote Originally Posted by lumireleon View Post
    ... CPU will use DDR4. Maybe the cheaper versions of ZEN APU will use the shared DDR4 and possibly add an eDRAM to boost the GPU.
    CPUs probably will continue to use DDR4 as system RAM on desktop and larger laptop systems, purely for the convenience of being able to expand/replace memory as required.

    Why you think AMD will mess with eDRAM when they've already invested heavily in HBM is beyond me. The eDRAM in Crystalwell is 129MB and offers 100GB/s bandwidth. A single stack of HBM 1 offers 8x the cache capacity with higher bandwidth. The only issue might be latency, but istr reading some articles about HBM bandwidth actually being lower latency than DDR3/GDDR5 at least.

    And of course in mobile, where upgradable memory is basically irrelevant, a single stack of HBM2 can provide up to 8GB of capacity at 256GB/s: that's 10x the bandwidth of a dual-channel DDR3-1600 interface. Even a quad channel DDR4 interface will struggle to get near that bandwidth. AFAIK there's no technical reason you couldn't run an APU with HBM as system RAM.

  11. Received thanks from:

    Pleiades (04-01-2016)

  12. #11
    root Member DanceswithUnix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    In the middle of a core dump
    Posts
    11,269
    Thanks
    610
    Thanked
    1,237 times in 1,050 posts
    • DanceswithUnix's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus X470-PRO
      • CPU:
      • 3700X
      • Memory:
      • 16GB 3200MHz
      • Storage:
      • 1TB Linux, 1TB Games (Win 10)
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Asus Strix RX Vega 56
      • PSU:
      • 650W Corsair TX
      • Case:
      • Antec 300
      • Operating System:
      • Fedora 30 + Win 10 Pro 64 (yuk)
      • Monitor(s):
      • Benq XL2730Z 1440p + Samsung 2343BW 2048x1152
      • Internet:
      • Zen 80Mb/20Mb VDSL

    Re: Zen based APU with HBM to be AMD Carrizo successor

    Quote Originally Posted by lumireleon View Post
    Nvidia do not make CPU's while intel are not good with GPU's.
    Nvidia don't make x86 cpus, but they not only make CPUs but they have their own 64 bit CPU core currently tuned for ARM V8 instructions. We just got an HP Chromebook which has a quad core Nvidia chip in it, and very nice it is too.

    I think it is a real shame that Intel denied Nvida an x86 license, but then I think we know that Intel aren't in this game for the good of humanity.

  13. #12
    root Member DanceswithUnix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    In the middle of a core dump
    Posts
    11,269
    Thanks
    610
    Thanked
    1,237 times in 1,050 posts
    • DanceswithUnix's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus X470-PRO
      • CPU:
      • 3700X
      • Memory:
      • 16GB 3200MHz
      • Storage:
      • 1TB Linux, 1TB Games (Win 10)
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Asus Strix RX Vega 56
      • PSU:
      • 650W Corsair TX
      • Case:
      • Antec 300
      • Operating System:
      • Fedora 30 + Win 10 Pro 64 (yuk)
      • Monitor(s):
      • Benq XL2730Z 1440p + Samsung 2343BW 2048x1152
      • Internet:
      • Zen 80Mb/20Mb VDSL

    Re: Zen based APU with HBM to be AMD Carrizo successor

    Quote Originally Posted by sykobee View Post
    It looks like they're squaring the shared memory circle by putting a large HBM L4 cache on the APUs.
    I don't see it being cache, 1GB of cache would need such a massive TLB to index into it you would be forced to have a second HBM stack to act as tag storage. So your 1GB of cache needs 2GB in total of HBM to work and you are back up to two busses working in parallel to get workable performance. At that point, it would probably be cheaper to have a single HBM2 stack of 4GB and for most people that is all the main memory they need. If you need to add more ram, then add DDR4 sticks and run the HBM2 as graphics ram.

  14. Received thanks from:

    Pleiades (04-01-2016)

  15. #13
    Moosekateer CAT-THE-FIFTH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Not here
    Posts
    30,217
    Thanks
    3,436
    Thanked
    4,764 times in 3,678 posts
    • CAT-THE-FIFTH's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Less E-PEEN
      • CPU:
      • Massive E-PEEN
      • Memory:
      • RGB E-PEEN
      • Storage:
      • Not in any order
      • Graphics card(s):
      • EVEN BIGGER E-PEEN
      • PSU:
      • OVERSIZED
      • Case:
      • UNDERSIZED
      • Operating System:
      • DOS 6.22
      • Monitor(s):
      • NOT USUALLY ON....WHEN I POST
      • Internet:
      • FUNCTIONAL

    Re: Zen based APU with HBM to be AMD Carrizo successor

    There could be more than one SKU though as I expect it to have a DDR4 memory controller too. Imagine if AMD made one SKU for laptops with 8GB of HBM2?? It would mean a much smaller package as not only is Carrizo an SOC and I expect its sucessor to be too,but it means one small package with the RAM included. The HBM2 could be use as a unified system memory for BOTH the CPU and GPU.

    That would pretty much mean no need for a lower end GPU for AMD as even 640 to 800 GCN shaders with decent bandwith on-die would be easily GTX750/GTX750TI level performance,plus with the CPU getting decent bandwidth it would also probably help in that area too.

    I would also expect a socketed desktop version where the DDR4 memory controller is used instead,since having to use an interposer for all versions probably increases the cost and complexity overall.


    Those despicable Elk,stealing the pond weed!

  16. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    ATLANTIS
    Posts
    1,021
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked
    25 times in 23 posts

    Re: Zen based APU with HBM to be AMD Carrizo successor

    HBM is super fast and super efficient but its expensive for low end PC's at this period of time. I think certain versions of the Zen APU will not have HBM in-built but will just rely on DDR4. The issue of GDDR5 and HBM having low latency is negligible for general purpose PC's and consoles just like the PS4.

  17. #15
    root Member DanceswithUnix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    In the middle of a core dump
    Posts
    11,269
    Thanks
    610
    Thanked
    1,237 times in 1,050 posts
    • DanceswithUnix's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus X470-PRO
      • CPU:
      • 3700X
      • Memory:
      • 16GB 3200MHz
      • Storage:
      • 1TB Linux, 1TB Games (Win 10)
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Asus Strix RX Vega 56
      • PSU:
      • 650W Corsair TX
      • Case:
      • Antec 300
      • Operating System:
      • Fedora 30 + Win 10 Pro 64 (yuk)
      • Monitor(s):
      • Benq XL2730Z 1440p + Samsung 2343BW 2048x1152
      • Internet:
      • Zen 80Mb/20Mb VDSL

    Re: Zen based APU with HBM to be AMD Carrizo successor

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    I would also expect a socketed desktop version where the DDR4 memory controller is used instead,since having to use an interposer for all versions probably increases the cost and complexity overall.
    But mass production drives cost down, so once you have the interposer for one part you may as well knock out all the parts with interposer and decide at the last minute at packaging which ones go BGA for laptops and which go into PGA/LGA for desktops. I expect trying to mount silicon intended for an interposer directly onto a flipchip carrier would be tricky, so possibly worth using the interposer to keep things simple just don't fit the HBM2 ram if you don't want it.

    There is also the worry that if you give a no HBM option then laptop manufacturers will knock out machines with a single stick of DDR4 to go with the 1366x768 cheap panels and tiny batteries and keep the idea going that AMD based laptops aren't very good

    So I would hope that the DDR4 interface is an option. You might get a pair of empty slots there if the HBM memory is enough for you, but people like the option to expand even if most never use it.

  18. Received thanks from:

    Pleiades (04-01-2016)

  19. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    ATLANTIS
    Posts
    1,021
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked
    25 times in 23 posts

    Re: Zen based APU with HBM to be AMD Carrizo successor

    if AMD will have APU's with inbuilt 4GB/6GB/12GB/16GB shared HBM versions it will be a blessing for laptop manufacturers as it will reduce laptop size, increase efficiency and improve performance like crazy but what about costs? is a 4GB HBM APU nearly the same price to an APU with no HBM relying on DDR4 memory? consumers are sensitive to cost.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •