Microsoft won't support next gen CPUs in older Windows versions

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Originally Posted by Corky34

I'm not angry, it's just your attempt at trolling is so obvious.

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I'm sorry you think that but when I encounter a gaggle of SJWs bemoaning corporate greed I like to at least view some sort of practical evidence that the figurative riot is justified.

Which one of the "reasons not to upgrade to Win10" are you most excited about? Privacy? Here is an article refuting that nonsense: http://www.zdnet.com/article/reveale...cs-are-missing

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Originally Posted by AzumaKazuma

I'm sorry you think that but when I encounter a gaggle of SJWs bemoaning corporate greed I like to at least view some sort of practical evidence that the figurative riot is justified.

Which one of the "reasons not to upgrade to Win10" are you most excited about? Privacy? Here is an article refuting that nonsense: http://www.zdnet.com/article/reveale...cs-are-missing

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The link i provided you gives you all the reason, while you may not agree with them that doesn't warrant ad hominem attacks on people that do, that just further reinforces my suspicion that your trolling. And i wouldn't consider Ed Bott exactly impartial, hes nothing more than a Microsoft shill with no more evidence than the very people he derides.

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Originally Posted by Corky34

The link i provided you gives you all the reason, while you may not agree with them that doesn't warrant ad hominem attacks on people that do, that just further reinforces my suspicion that your trolling. And i wouldn't consider Ed Bott exactly impartial, hes nothing more than a Microsoft shill with no more evidence than the very people he derides.

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Is anyone who disagrees with you a troll? What is this?

I'd hardly call my first reply to you an attack when all I stated was that I believed there is no practical problem here. In fact it was you who immediately attacked me. It was obvious that you were immediately irate.

And at least I have been trying to cite specific evidence rather than just linking to a Google search with very questionable reasons all of which will be completely nullified in 2017. I'd hardly call that ad hominem.

I don't know who Ed Bott is but I am a software developer and the technical arguments related to analytics and diagnostics logging is an essential part of modern software development. Not sure what is contentious there.

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Originally Posted by AzumaKazuma

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I don't know who Ed Bott is but I am a software developer and the technical arguments related to analytics and diagnostics logging is an essential part of modern software development. Not sure what is contentious there.

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Ed Bott is the pro-MS author of the very ZDNet article you supplied the link to. I think the use of "shill" suggests what Corky34 thinks of him as a source of an impartial view.

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Originally Posted by AzumaKazuma

Is anyone who disagrees with you a troll? What is this?

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My accusation that you're trolling has nothing to with a disagreement, it's that you started out pretending that you didn't know why someone wouldn't want to upgrade to the latest version of an OS, you were being deliberately obtuse in an attempt to sow discord, your original question implied that you didn't understand why someone wouldn't want to upgrade to Windows 10, i suggested you used Google, but in case you still can't be bothered to look up those reasons for yourself hears one of the top of my head, because i don't want to, happy now?

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Originally Posted by AzumaKazuma

I'd hardly call my first reply to you an attack when all I stated was that I believed there is no practical problem here. In fact it was you who immediately attacked me. It was obvious that you were immediately irate.

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See above, people tend to get defensive when it's obvious someone is attempting to sow discord by playing dumb, your attacks didn't start until later when you discovered that your trolling efforts had been discovered, that's when you decided to bring emotive ad hominem attacks into it by calling anyone how doesn't agree with you a Social Justice Warrior whose doing nothing other than moaning about corporate greed.

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Originally Posted by AzumaKazuma

And at least I have been trying to cite specific evidence rather than just linking to a Google search with very questionable reasons all of which will be completely nullified in 2017. I'd hardly call that ad hominem.

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What you cited isn't evidence, that's an opinion piece written by someone with all their chips in the game, someone whose written and still receives royalties from over 25 books all based on the same companies products, who claimed Windows 8 was the new XP, who has received bribes from Microsoft in the past and only saw it as a bribe when it was explained to him after he proudly announced it to the world, something hes probably kept quite about since then.

The fact is there's no "evidence" only opinions based on the information that's available, you may look at that information and form your own opinion, it maybe different than mine and that's fine, good for you, but to pretend that anyone who doesn't share your opinion is a Social Justice Warrior whose doing nothing other than moaning about corporate greed is rather insulting, it's rather insulting to feign ignorance in the hope that someone takes umbrage just because you want to sow discord.

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Originally Posted by AzumaKazuma

I don't know who Ed Bott is but I am a software developer and the technical arguments related to analytics and diagnostics logging is an essential part of modern software development. Not sure what is contentious there.

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Then maybe you need to look at whose writing an article a little more closely before accepting their opinion as "evidence"
Also the only person to raise the spying boggy man was yourself, after saying you didn't know why someone wouldn't want to upgrade, that's reason enough for me not to go down that road as you only raised that in the hope of having someone or something to argue against when you discovered that the reasons for not wanting to upgrade were plainly obvious.

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Originally Posted by Saracen

Ed Bott is the pro-MS author of the very ZDNet article you supplied the link to. I think the use of "shill" suggests what Corky34 thinks of him as a source of an impartial view.

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Thanks. When I said I don't know who Ed Bott is, what I really meant was that Ed Bott's apparent reputation as a shill has so far eluded me.

Anyway here are some other sources of the same sentiment:

http://www.theguardian.com/technolog...blems-worry-me

http://www.laptopmag.com/articles/wi...es-exaggerated

http://www.computerworld.com/article...es.html?page=2

There are plenty of others too if the above do not suffice.

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Originally Posted by TheAnimus

You also didn't appear to realise the massive differences between 8.1 and 10. In particular in startup. These chipsets are really absurdly complex now, and nothing like they used to be as little as 10 years ago.

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I still don't think that gets around the basic issue: Drivers are not Microsoft's responsibility. If Intel are writing the drivers for their absurdly complex chipset then Intel get to choose what is supported.

It would be nice if Microsoft made an OS that people actually wanted to upgrade to thought.

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Originally Posted by AzumaKazuma

Anyway here are some other sources of the same sentiment:
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There are plenty of others too if the above do not suffice.

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That's the thing (IMHO) those are all opinions and that's fine, some people don't have the time or knowledge to form their own, that's the thing with opinions, everyone has their own and none are necessarily right or wrong, for some people Windows 10 maybe a perfect OS but that doesn't make people who don't agree with that wrong, just as it doesn't make people who don't like it right.

For some people changing the default on so called "spying" features to disabled is fine, for others the fact that Microsoft is attempting to "nudge" people into something is a sign of their intentions, others say if that's what they tell you about what aren't they telling you about, no single opinion is right or wrong, people can decide for themselves where along the scale Windows 10 is and if their comfortable with that.

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Originally Posted by ik9000

Would it simplify things then if intel stopped releasing a new chipset each time they release a new tick/node improvement? 1156 to 1155 to 1150 to.... IIRC people have demonstrated that they could have been made compatible with each other.

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The march of progress! I wouldn't mind so much if Intel hadn't taken such an ax to their QA and bug fixing process. Move fast and ship bugs doesn't work.

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Originally Posted by Corky34

Sorry you've lost me with the "I kept owning his pre-intel macbook" either I'm having a bad day or that doesn't make much sense.

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So being highly professional we used to play pranks on each other. This guy, the graphics designer had little choice in his wallpaper and screensaver, it was The Hoff. This is because we could "own" his machine that is hack and compromise to the root level.

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Originally Posted by Corky34

It doesn't matter how massive the differences between 8.1 and 10 is, not that i believe that as despite Microsoft re-versioning the kernel to better match the overlying OS Windows 10 is based on the same kernel (major version) as Windows 7, but no matter how massive the differences are it still doesn't change that Microsoft have once again gone back on their word, they promised to issue nonsecurity hotfixes, design changes and feature requests for Windows 8.1 until the 17th January 2017.

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There isn't much to believe, grab the HDK (Hardware Dev Kit) and have a look.

This is a new feature, they made no promises for that. Mainstream vs Extended support has never behaved this way, DirectX is a good example of that, due to the complexity of how it often bypasses the main kernel and often in newer versions would be considered a micro-kernel in it's own right.

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Originally Posted by Corky34

Why anyone would trust what Microsoft says is beyond me when they have consistently gone back on their word, trust is hard earned and easily lost and for me Microsoft have shown themselves to be untrustworthy.

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Link to their word? They've never said such things to me or my company.

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Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix

I still don't think that gets around the basic issue: Drivers are not Microsoft's responsibility. If Intel are writing the drivers for their absurdly complex chipset then Intel get to choose what is supported.

It would be nice if Microsoft made an OS that people actually wanted to upgrade to thought.

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Problem is chipset drivers aren't like any other driver on the system. I was reading a paper the other day about how they are looking to change event scheduling, this is when something signals across a boundary from kernel to user (IOCTRL) this was really down to changes in the low power chipset. I can totally believe that there is a hell of a lot of work from both sides involved in the design of this stuff. I can really see how backporting it could break all sorts of existing bits of code.

I agree it would be great if MS would address the concerns with 10, their march to a google style evil your data are belong to us.

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Originally Posted by Corky34

My accusation that you're trolling has nothing to with a disagreement, it's that you started out pretending that you didn't know why someone wouldn't want to upgrade to the latest version of an OS, you were being deliberately obtuse in an attempt to sow discord, your original question implied that you didn't understand why someone wouldn't want to upgrade to Windows 10, i suggested you used Google, but in case you still can't be bothered to look up those reasons for yourself hears one of the top of my head, because i don't want to, happy now?

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Look, this is crazy. You are obviously quite angry with me. Please try to relax. I am not trolling or attempting to incite hatred.

Here is the bottom line, I do not believe that there are legitimate reasons for not upgrading to Win10 from Win8. Yes this is just my opinion. Yes you have your own opinions. It is difficult for me to understand why people like you are being so militant about this subject. I am not feigning ignorance or "playing dumb".

The reason I brought up privacy was because you were not providing a specific reason so I decided to pick the most obvious one and wanted to go through each reason with you and discuss why I felt the reason was unjustified. Isn't this what forums are for? To discuss and debate subjects?

So let's just agree to disagree, because this seems to be getting out of hand.

I had no idea that Ed Bott had such a reputation. And yes it does seem that he is very biased.

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Originally Posted by TheAnimus

So being highly professional we used to play pranks on each other. This guy, the graphics designer had little choice in his wallpaper and screensaver, it was The Hoff. This is because we could "own" his machine that is hack and compromise to the root level.

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That's me being stupid then, i was thinking of owned as in it belongs to me and not the slang meaning, apologies. :)

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Originally Posted by TheAnimus

This is a new feature, they made no promises for that. Mainstream vs Extended support has never behaved this way, DirectX is a good example of that, due to the complexity of how it often bypasses the main kernel and often in newer versions would be considered a micro-kernel in it's own right.

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But like i said this is nothing to do with IF they could or couldn't make a certain feature of newer hardware work on an older OS, it's about them stating their not going to do it, before they previously said they would.

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Originally Posted by TheAnimus

Link to their word? They've never said such things to me or my company.

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When you, I, and everyone else paid for a copy of Windows it came with a license agreement, an agreement between yourself and Microsoft that they'd provide mainstream for 5 years during which time the would issue nonsecurity hotfixes, design changes and feature requests, they also promised to provide a further 5 years of extended support during which time they would only provide security related fixes.

Microsoft have now gone back on that agreement twice, firstly when they stated that they would no longer support older versions of the JavaScript / HTML rendering engine, and the Windows Internet Protocol Handler that they integrated into older operating systems, when Microsoft said they would provide extended support for Windows 7 until 2020 that meant the whole OS and not just a part of it, IE is so tightly integrated into Windows that it can't be removed, you can't just not use it and if you can't, for what ever reason, upgrade it then you're left with parts of an OS that Microsoft agreed to issue security updates for until 2020 that's not going receive those updates.

The second time is how they've now reneged on their agreement to offer mainstream support for Windows 8.1 until Jan 2017, that doesn't mean as some people seem to think that Microsoft must support new features even if it's technically impossible/difficult, if something can't be done that's understandable, what isn't (IMO) is to say you're not even going to try, that you just can't be bothered, or that it's going to cost to much.

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Originally Posted by AzumaKazuma

Look, this is crazy. You are obviously quite angry with me. Please try to relax. I am not trolling or attempting to incite hatred.

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Like i said earlier I'm not angry, i call it as i see it and to me when someone says they can't understand why people wouldn't upgrade IMHO their either being very naive or their just playing dumb in the hope that someone will fall into their trap.

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Originally Posted by AzumaKazuma

Here is the bottom line, I do not believe that there are legitimate reasons for not upgrading to Win10 from Win8. Yes this is just my opinion. Yes you have your own opinions. It is difficult for me to understand why people like you are being so militant about this subject. I am not feigning ignorance or "playing dumb".

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So are you seriously saying it's impossible for you to conceive of a single reason that someone wouldn't want to upgrade?
Because if you are i can only assume you're trolling or you really don't understand the freedom of choice, legacy software, and all those other reasons a quick Google search would present you with, now while you may personally not agree with those reasons that doesn't mean there not valid reasons for some people, it's just that there not valid reasons for you, are you really that narrow minded that you can't conceive that other people have different opinions and reasons for either doing or not doing something that may not be the same opinions and reasons that you have.

Me personally i could give you reasons that I don't want to upgrade but that not the question you asked, you asked why "people" didn't want to upgrade, i provided you with a way to find out why "people" didn't want to as i can't speak for every persons individual reasons.

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Originally Posted by AzumaKazuma

The reason I brought up privacy was because you were not providing a specific reason so I decided to pick the most obvious one and wanted to go through each reason with you and discuss why I felt the reason was unjustified. Isn't this what forums are for? To discuss and debate subjects?

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The reason i didn't provide a specific reason is because you didn't ask a specific question, you just said the whole debate is purely academic, you said what's the big deal, that it's only a problem for people who refuse to upgrade, that only organisations with legacy systems cannot upgrade, then when i said you must have been living under a rock to have such a simplistic view and that you should use Google to read about why some people can't or choose not to upgrade you decided to ignore that advise, you refused to read about peoples opinions that differed from yours, you decided to carry on sowing discord, you attempted to pick a reason so you could argue how wrong someone is.

I'm all for discussion and debates but when someone is being deliberately obtuse in an attempt to sow discord discussion and debating is probably the last thing on their mind, when someone pretends to know nothing about peoples widely publicised opinions on a subject it's very probable they just want to start an argument.

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Originally Posted by Corky34

So are you seriously saying it's impossible for you to conceive of a single reason that someone wouldn't want to upgrade? Because if you are i can only assume you're trolling or you really don't understand the freedom of choice, legacy software, and all those other reasons a quick Google search would present you with, now while you may personally not agree with those reasons that doesn't mean there not valid reasons for some people, it's just that there not valid reasons for you, are you really that narrow minded that you can't conceive that other people have different opinions and reasons for either doing or not doing something that may not be the same opinions and reasons that you have.

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Why do you keep saying that I am being deliberately obtuse and "pretending"? If it was not already clear, for the record I deny that accusation.

You mentioned legacy software there. I think this is where you're misunderstanding the problem. We are talking about Windows 8 here. All previous versions of Windows have already ended mainstream support. There are no legacy apps that have been written to target Win8. Any software written to target Win8 will work in Win10. If you are talking about legacy software that requires WinXP or any previous version of Windows then that is completely irrelevant in this discussion because we are talking about MS implementing support for a bleeding edge CPU into operating systems that are still under mainstream support.

Yes I realise that mainstream support for Win8 is supposed to run till 9th Jan 2018.

Yes there is the question of freedom of choice or any of the many other reasons to not upgrade. But if you want to have the latest Kaby Lake CPU are you seriously saying that any of these reasons are so dire that you will flatly refuse to upgrade out of principal?

This is a storm in a teacup. I accept that other people may have reasons not to upgrade but in my opinion those reasons are inconsequential.

The type of person who purchases a bleeding edge Kaby Lake CPU will want to install a bleeding edge operating system. This is a non-issue and it boggles the mind that people are up in arms about it.

Is there a single person here who is planning on purchasing a Kaby Lake CPU and running Win8? If so, how long do you intend to run Win8 for? Because if you're not happy with Win10 now then what happens if the next version of Windows still disappoints? Stick with Win8 until the end of time? Switch over to Linux or MacOS?

All because of some grandiose notion of principals or freedom of choice? Well, whatever makes you happy.

Here is what I say: if you want the latest Kaby Lake CPU but refuse to upgrade to Win10 out of principal, tough luck. You're obviously not happy with Microsoft's direction anyway so you will inevitably need to switch to Linux / MacOS.

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Originally Posted by AzumaKazuma

Why do you keep saying that I am being deliberately obtuse and "pretending"? If it was not already clear, for the record I deny that accusation.

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Yet that's exactly what you're doing, when all it would take is 5-10min reading some Google results for you to be aware of what's the big deal when the upgrade to Win10, that it's not only a problem for people who refuse to upgrade, that the entities that cannot upgrade are not just organisations with legacy systems, that the whole debate isn't just purely academic, and in fact they're practical problem to upgrading.

So yes when a quick Google search could rebut all those claims i do say you're being deliberately obtuse and pleading ignorance, even common sense should be telling you that those aren't the only problems.

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Originally Posted by AzumaKazuma

You mentioned legacy software there. I think this is where you're misunderstanding the problem. We are talking about Windows 8 here. All previous versions of Windows have already ended mainstream support. There are no legacy apps that have been written to target Win8. Any software written to target Win8 will work in Win10. If you are talking about legacy software that requires WinXP or any previous version of Windows then that is completely irrelevant in this discussion because we are talking about MS implementing support for a bleeding edge CPU into operating systems that are still under mainstream support.

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No we're talking about why why some people can't or choose not to upgrade, that being the initial premise of what you first posted in this thread.
We're also not talking about Windows 8, that left extended support on the 13th of November, 2015, 24 months after the release of Windows 8.1 that's still in mainstream support until January 9, 2018. You seem to be conflating the two issues.

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Originally Posted by AzumaKazuma

Yes I realise that mainstream support for Win8 is supposed to run till 9th Jan 2018.

Yes there is the question of freedom of choice or any of the many other reasons to not upgrade. But if you want to have the latest Kaby Lake CPU are you seriously saying that any of these reasons are so dire that you will flatly refuse to upgrade out of principal?

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No, Windows 8 is not support by Microsoft, it hasn't been for around two months, it's also not about Windows 8.1 "supposedly" still being in mainstream support, it is still in mainstream support, no ifs, no buts, no supposedly.

It's not a matter of principal, it's a matter of Microsoft going back on their word and for a company that's made such a big thing out of earning peoples trust and how important trust is, this isn't the way to earn that trust (IMO), it's also not a matter of "if" you want the latest Kaby Lake CPU that you must upgrade to use it, you don't, it's just some features may only be supported by Windows 10, although that's neither hear nor there, if you have need of a particular feature that isn't available in an older OS it maybe worth upgrading, what this is about is Microsoft yet again going back on their word, that doesn't exactly instil confidence when they say trust us we won't do X, Y, or Z.

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Originally Posted by AzumaKazuma

This is a storm in a teacup. I accept that other people may have reasons not to upgrade but in my opinion those reasons are inconsequential.

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Again with that rather bigoted view that other peoples opinions and reasons are inconsequential.

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Originally Posted by AzumaKazuma

The type of person who purchases a bleeding edge Kaby Lake CPU will want to install a bleeding edge operating system. This is a non-issue and it boggles the mind that people are up in arms about it.

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Again it's not about if, it's about a company that says "Trust is a core pillar of our More Personal Computing vision, and we know we have to earn it." Yet their actions (IMO) do anything but make me trust them, basically their talking the talk but not walking the walk.

Just to stop this descending into a flame war,nwhich we strongly deprecate...

Azumakazuma

as the new boy here, it does appear that you could have joined here just to champion Microsoft's products. The italics are intended to say that it is a possibility, not a fact :)

There are some legitimate concerns about Microsoft's strategic direction, towards a subscription type of service, and the rather indecent haste in which they are 'encouraging' existing users of Windows 7/8 down the Windows 10 route, through the installation of the nag tools. This has, rightly or wrongly, encouraged some mistrust of Microsoft.

You may not share those concerns, and your references have been chosen to illustrate the fact that you think the concerns are baseless.

Corky34

No one doubts your sincerity or integrity, and I can understand your frustration at a the dismissal of your concerns.

However, you are both approaching this from opposite ends of the spectrum, and therefore are unlikely to come to any agreement or persuade each other of the opposing view.

For my own part, I don't like the changes to the GUI introduced by Win8 and I don't like the move towards subscription.

But above all, I have absolutely no need to move away to Windows 7 which does all I need for the very few legacy applications that are Windows only, I I find the marketing hype tedious.

So Corky34 and Azumakazuma, can you draw a line under your disagreement and agree to differ?

Will do guvnor. :)
I think it maybe best for everyone if i add Microsoft to my list of things not to discuss, along with religion and politics. ;)

Yep I think it's run its course. Anyway, I had already stated that I thought the discussion was getting out of hand. It's also far too time consuming!