QOTW: Are upgradeable games consoles a good idea?

[McEwin]

If done correctly - New games still 100% backward compatible and sensibly priced. The problem is they aren't done that way.

[Ttaskmaster]

You can (and I have) drive a Lambo, Porsche etc without understanding how the aerodynamics/traction control/fuel injection systems work.

Ah, so I just need to know the basics, yeh?
OK, so I have a licence... Gimme your Lambo and your Porsche and I'll drive just like I drive a Golf and a Merc and they'll perform with the exact same results, yeh?

So why then do we even have PCs?
Why does it matter about choice of components and compatibility?
Why do we overclock?
If it's all the same and we just plug and play.... why does that never work when randomly building a PC?

[shaithis]

If they made them with easy-to-change APU modules, it could work.

Although, would a new APU today change the performance of the XB1 and PS4 much? Perhaps if they switched to 16nm FinFET and Zen architecture.....but then would everything "just work" without having to re-write a lot of code? Lets not forget how close to the metal console code can be.

It's intriguing and as someone who had an N64 with "expander", I'd certainly be up for it.

[jag272]

If they made them with easy-to-change APU modules, it could work.

Although, would a new APU today change the performance of the XB1 and PS4 much? Perhaps if they switched to 16nm FinFET and Zen architecture.....but then would everything "just work" without having to re-write a lot of code? Lets not forget how close to the metal console code can be.

It's intriguing and as someone who had an N64 with "expander", I'd certainly be up for it.

I think what someone said on an earlier page is the most viable solution. Have an external GPU that when connected disables the graphics portion of the APU, allowing the CPU cores more headroom for higher clocks due to lower thermal output. GPU technology at least up until now has been developing far quicker than CPU, whether thats due to lacking multicore support or not remains to be seen. But I reckon the CPU in the consoles is probably sufficient to soldier on a few years (or adjustments could be made in future if this model were to be picked up), but a one off official external GPU in the middle of a console's life (say 3 years or so?) might be sufficient to allow them to keep up a bit.

[DanceswithUnix]

If they made them with easy-to-change APU modules, it could work.

Although, would a new APU today change the performance of the XB1 and PS4 much? Perhaps if they switched to 16nm FinFET and Zen architecture.....but then would everything "just work" without having to re-write a lot of code? Lets not forget how close to the metal console code can be.

It's intriguing and as someone who had an N64 with "expander", I'd certainly be up for it.

I doubt it would just work, unless they got sneaky.

XB1 uses cat cores and GCN 1.1 shaders, yes?

Let's say you shrink to 14nm giving you twice the transistors to play with, you double the number of shaders, and you *add* a couple of Zen cores and some L3 cache. Now you can run old software by putting it on the Cat cores and turning off the L3 cache. New software can schedule tasks on the new, faster cores and will know it has twice the shaders to play with and so make use of them.

You can pull those sorts of stunts when it isn't a Windows PC

[simonpreston]

They were completely 'new' consoles though. I think he meant, add-in upgrades to an existing one, which is what we're discussing after all... something like the Sega 32x... I also agree that there have been no successful upgrades in that context, but it doesn't mean it's impossible now. There's a much bigger market and consumers are possibly more open to it...

That's exactly what I meant. History is littered with failed console addons. Sega were the most confused, during the early 90s. Quite why they released the 32x, as an add on to the Megadrive, God only knows. Should have been a brand new console. Even then, it may have better if they didn't bother with it at all. They ditched it extremely quickly and annoyed a lot of their supporters in the process. Perhaps the Saturn may have been better received, if it was the straight forward successor to the MD. Whilst both the 32X and MegaCD were pretty cool, they just weren't successful.
Of course, delivery of games has changed somewhat. Format is becoming less of a concern. If you had the 2 Sega upgrades, you had a choice of 3 different formats to use (2 cart, 1 CD). Again, it made choosing which to develop for a right pain. Downloading a game removes that. I'm not sure if that would make it less of an issue, mind. Developers might still have a hard time trying to get the software to work properly on all systems. It would certainly make distribution easier though.

Releasing a 'revised' version of a console (faster cpu, gpu, maybe more RAM) isn't the same thing. It still gives developers a bassline spec to work with. Allows them to make use of the new features, whilst still making it run as required on the original spec. That way the same copy of the game will happily run on either spec, and not affect sales.

[b0redom]

Ah, so I just need to know the basics, yeh?
OK, so I have a licence... Gimme your Lambo and your Porsche and I'll drive just like I drive a Golf and a Merc and they'll perform with the exact same results, yeh?

Of course it will. Sure the clutch will have a different biting point, and it'll go faster, but it's the same controls.

Why does it matter about choice of components and compatibility?
Why do we overclock?

For the vast vast majority, it doesn't. They'll buy an off the shelf unit and never upgrade it. Same for overclocking.

If it's all the same and we just plug and play.... why does that never work when randomly building a PC?

...because you're doing it wrong?

[DanceswithUnix]

That's exactly what I meant. History is littered with failed console addons.

Which is probably why Phil Spencer in the article at the top of all this doesn't mention plug ins/add ons other than slagging off the PS4 VR addon box.

The thing is, I wonder who the market for an upgraded console would be. My most modern console is a PS3, and if the XBox or PS4 were made twice as fast I still wouldn't care to upgrade what for me is mainly a Blueray player. Would people who do already have an XBone want to upgrade? The nice point with evolving a console to lower cost is that it can drag in new purchasers who felt uncomfortable with the old price, so if instead of an XBox One Slim they made an Xbox One Super, would existing customers buy one or just feel hacked off? The more I think about it, I think the technical side of improving a console is the least of their problems. If they aren't careful, they could well be creating the new SteamBox full of uncertainty of what it will run and how well it will run it.

[Ttaskmaster]

Of course it will. Sure the clutch will have a different biting point, and it'll go faster, but it's the same controls.

OK, great, let's go..... ah, so where does the key go?
Oh, it's a new one, not even the slot type, but the kind where you just have to have the key nearby... and you have a Start button instead... and off I go without knowing to disable the automatic take-off or select a traction control profile.... CRASH. Oh well, your car...!!

For the vast vast majority, it doesn't. They'll buy an off the shelf unit and never upgrade it. Same for overclocking.

So we don't need upgradable consoles, then...
It's only the PC Elite few that ever upgrade and tweak and improve things to their preferred spec, yeh?

...because you're doing it wrong?

Ah, but it's all the same.... so I can take any old motherboard and any old GPU and any old processor and any old RAM and plug them all into the PSU and they'll just work, right?
I don't need to set anything up in the BIOS, no?

[DanceswithUnix]

... and off I go without knowing to disable the automatic take-off or select a traction control profile.... CRASH. Oh well, your car...!!

Pfft, that's not a car that's just software adjustment. Might as well just stick to a playstation

With my kit car you have to consider weight transfer all the time if you aren't just pootling around gently. The accelerator and brake have severe consequences if you push them hard, or even just lift off the accelerator on a corner. So satisfying when it is going right though.

[Pleiades]

That's exactly what I meant. History is littered with failed console addons.

Releasing a 'revised' version of a console (faster cpu, gpu, maybe more RAM) isn't the same thing. It still gives developers a bassline spec to work with. Allows them to make use of the new features, whilst still making it run as required on the original spec. That way the same copy of the game will happily run on either spec, and not affect sales.

I think a lot of people are completely misreading the question, which to my mind is a pretty simple one, and which you have answered accurately.

Really quite bemused as to how anyone can make that sort of basic comprehension error tbh...