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Thread: Microsoft does u-turn on tricky Windows 10 upgrade popup

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    Microsoft does u-turn on tricky Windows 10 upgrade popup

    And the corporation announces large cuts to its smartphone operations.
    Read more.

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    Re: Microsoft does u-turn on tricky Windows 10 upgrade popup

    So in other words their not changing anything other than presenting the same devious malware'esc popup a second time before starting the upgrade, I'm looking forward to installing Mint 18 in the next few months as it seems their phone business isn't the only thing in a death spiral.

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    Re: Microsoft does u-turn on tricky Windows 10 upgrade popup

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    So in other words their not changing anything other than presenting the same devious malware'esc popup a second time before starting the upgrade, I'm looking forward to installing Mint 18 in the next few months as it seems their phone business isn't the only thing in a death spiral.
    So what's stopping you from installing Mint now?

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    Re: Microsoft does u-turn on tricky Windows 10 upgrade popup

    To be fair, closing a notification window it that way has never had reliable results. It's not like anyone who actually read the message would be in any doubt about whether or not their computer was scheduled to install the upgrade. Most people who'd really care wouldn't be set to automatically install recommended updates anyway (I've certainly never let a Windows 7 install automatically install recommended updates), and anyone who just automatically closes any notification window without reading it ... well, I won't say they deserve everything they get, but refusing to interact with software is tantamount to giving it permission to do what it wants (the line "Click here to change upgrade schedule or cancel..." is pretty clear).

    Of course, whether the Windows 10 upgrade should be rolled out over Windows Update is another question entirely, but calling this a "nasty trick" is a bit harsh - the upgrade has been scheduled in accordance with the users update preferences, and they've been notified that it's been scheduled along with a link to follow that is clearly marked as being for changing or cancelling the upgrade. What exactly are people expecting the close button to do? Offer a different schedule? Cancel something that's already been scheduled according to the users update preferences? I'd say that's further from the "traditional use of the Windows close gadget" than closing the notification and leaving all other settings as they are...

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    Re: Microsoft does u-turn on tricky Windows 10 upgrade popup

    Might want to be careful who you finger for the quote:
    Quote Originally Posted by BBC News
    Brad Chacos, senior editor at the PC World website, described it as a "nasty trick".
    My Windows 8 desktop seems to have given up on pushing this upgrade on me at least. I did install it as a clean install on the other half's old win 7 AiO PC, pretty nippy with an SSD but wasn't happy about the amount and difficulty of uninstalling the bundled junkware.

    ps I wonder if Windows 'signature edition' PCs also get 3rd party apps installed by default like Candy Crush?

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    Re: Microsoft does u-turn on tricky Windows 10 upgrade popup

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    So what's stopping you from installing Mint now?
    Nothing other than not wanting to go to the bother of installing a new OS only to be reinstalling or updating it to a newer version a couple of months later.

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    Re: Microsoft does u-turn on tricky Windows 10 upgrade popup

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbouk View Post
    Might want to be careful who you finger for the quote:
    True and very good point. But the BBC also did their typical non-attributary headline calling it a 'nasty trick' in inverted commas and only clarifying someone else said it in the full article.

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    Re: Microsoft does u-turn on tricky Windows 10 upgrade popup

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    It's not like anyone who actually read the message would be in any doubt about whether or not their computer was scheduled to install the upgrade.
    Plenty of people, like my daughter, won't. I think for an 11 year old, the rule she was taught of "just click the close box of anything that looks suspicious" is a reasonable one. If something looks odd, she will come and ask for help. She didn't come for help, and her PC upgraded so I an guessing she saw something that looked like the nag she had dismissed a thousand times and just made it go away the same as the others.

    And yes, her PC was set to automatically install updates because I want it patched against security flaws in a timely manner and I can't expect an 11 year old to selectively choose updates, and I don't have time to nanny every stupid Windows box in the house.

    Dismissing a box should not be potentially destructive, it should cancel. That's decades old basic user interface design.

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    Re: Microsoft does u-turn on tricky Windows 10 upgrade popup

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    Plenty of people, like my daughter, won't. I think for an 11 year old, the rule she was taught of "just click the close box of anything that looks suspicious" is a reasonable one. If something looks odd, she will come and ask for help. She didn't come for help, and her PC upgraded so I an guessing she saw something that looked like the nag she had dismissed a thousand times and just made it go away the same as the others.

    And yes, her PC was set to automatically install updates because I want it patched against security flaws in a timely manner and I can't expect an 11 year old to selectively choose updates, and I don't have time to nanny every stupid Windows box in the house.

    Dismissing a box should not be potentially destructive, it should cancel. That's decades old basic user interface design.
    To my mind, we're conflating two separate things.

    This message itself is not (to me) a problem. It says the upgrade is going to happen unless you change it. Dismissing a window is not an active decision, it's effectively saying "I don't want to deal with this". Therefore making the upgrade happen is the logical flow.

    The problem is that MS have made it a recommended update, and thus automatic. As several people have pointed out, yourself included, it's one thing to automate patches, it's another to automate the install an entirely new operating system. That should never have happened.

    On a side note, the first time I read the headline, I thought the box said 'Do you want to install Windows 10?' and the red x was interpreted as yes. That would be totally unacceptable, and I think many of the articles were very misleading.

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    Re: Microsoft does u-turn on tricky Windows 10 upgrade popup

    Quote Originally Posted by jim View Post
    The problem is that MS have made it a recommended update, and thus automatic. As several people have pointed out, yourself included, it's one thing to automate patches, it's another to automate the install an entirely new operating system. That should never have happened.
    So effectively the underlying issue to all this is the classification of the "Windows 10 upgrade" as an update....maybe they need to add a new classification of update......but I think the Win10 upgrade has just been lumped in to the future of Windows 10.....where new build of Windows are merely updates as far as Microsoft is concerned (just like the upgrade to 10586 happened)
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    Re: Microsoft does u-turn on tricky Windows 10 upgrade popup

    In other POSITIVE news, that probably will NOT be posted by tech sites, MS is doing well in the U.K:

    "Microsoft Surface Pro outselling iPad Pro into enterprise in UK"

    http://mspoweruser.com/microsoft-surface-pro-outselling-ipad-pro-enterprise-uk/

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    Re: Microsoft does u-turn on tricky Windows 10 upgrade popup

    Quote Originally Posted by shaithis View Post
    So effectively the underlying issue to all this is the classification of the "Windows 10 upgrade" as an update....maybe they need to add a new classification of update......but I think the Win10 upgrade has just been lumped in to the future of Windows 10.....where new build of Windows are merely updates as far as Microsoft is concerned (just like the upgrade to 10586 happened)
    Yes, I think we're more or less past it now, in that the new model for Windows appears to be streaming updates rather than major releases.

    And according to MS we'll lose the ability to update Windows 7 imminently. Although the more I think about it, I suspect it will return in some guise in the future.

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    Re: Microsoft does u-turn on tricky Windows 10 upgrade popup

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    To be fair, closing a notification window it that way has never had reliable results. It's not like anyone who actually read the message would be in any doubt about whether or not their computer was scheduled to install the upgrade. Most people who'd really care wouldn't be set to automatically install recommended updates anyway (I've certainly never let a Windows 7 install automatically install recommended updates), and anyone who just automatically closes any notification window without reading it ... well, I won't say they deserve everything they get, but refusing to interact with software is tantamount to giving it permission to do what it wants (the line "Click here to change upgrade schedule or cancel..." is pretty clear).

    Of course, whether the Windows 10 upgrade should be rolled out over Windows Update is another question entirely, but calling this a "nasty trick" is a bit harsh - the upgrade has been scheduled in accordance with the users update preferences, and they've been notified that it's been scheduled along with a link to follow that is clearly marked as being for changing or cancelling the upgrade. What exactly are people expecting the close button to do? Offer a different schedule? Cancel something that's already been scheduled according to the users update preferences? I'd say that's further from the "traditional use of the Windows close gadget" than closing the notification and leaving all other settings as they are...
    The really offensiveness is the presumption that replacing your entire OS, without explicit agreement, is acceptable. Personally I agree in never having automatically accepted updates. I always vet them them and install only what I regard as nedded or desirable. But given the torrent of patches, it's a pain even for someone pretty PC-literate and a nightmare, or simply not an option, for the majority on non-techies.

    The ONLY thing MS had to do, even if they were going to offer Win10 via the upgrade service was to offer users a dialog that had a small set of clear options, like :-

    - upgrade now
    - defer (set delay)
    - do not upgrade.

    If you selected the last, it could offer advice on how to change your mind.

    Then, given those options, DO NOTHING unless the user explicitly opts for it.

    A complete OS upgrade is not a patch, the vast majority of which most users will bever notice have, or have not, been done.

    But no, MS decided for their benefit, to try to shove Win10 on users whether they want it or not. Scheduling it without the user's explicit agreement is the act that is really offensive, in much the same way as Scan adding the purchase of insurance into customer's basket without an explicit agreement to do so was.

    This "nasty trick" is little more than the latest round of MS trying to force stuff on users that started with Win8 MUI, and the entire underhand, deceitful, leveraged upgrade process is disgraceful, and about as honest as another large company installing rootkits.

    All they had to do was show users sufficient respect to offer them the option to upgrade, and even promote the benefits of doing so, while still giving users the courtesy of an actual choice, without having to jump through hoops trying to stop MS pestering, or forcing an upgrade if you blink and miss the carefullly lacking in prominence method of not getting it foisted on you.

    Offering users an obvious choice, and an informed choice at that, is one thing but this sort of guerilla marketing stinks, and has cost MS any respect at all I had for them.

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    Re: Microsoft does u-turn on tricky Windows 10 upgrade popup

    Quote Originally Posted by jim View Post
    This message itself is not (to me) a problem. It says the upgrade is going to happen unless you change it. Dismissing a window is not an active decision, it's effectively saying "I don't want to deal with this". Therefore making the upgrade happen is the logical flow.
    Don't go throwing logic into the mix.

    Seriously though for semi tech savvy users it's really not a problem, heck even for someone that spent 5min reading it wouldn't be a problem, what is though is that for years people have, as DanceswithUnix points out, been taught that if they think something looks a bit suspect then to just close it using the big red X, even Microsoft themselves say the same, added to that is how that's the way the GWX popup worked for something like 10 months.

    What Microsoft are doing are using social engineering techniques to get people to install Windows 10.

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    Re: Microsoft does u-turn on tricky Windows 10 upgrade popup

    I'm going to miss Windows Phone.

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    Re: Microsoft does u-turn on tricky Windows 10 upgrade popup


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