Computer FPS players might not be better real-world marksmen

[Telekloud]

I will tell you that, and I will be correct in telling you that. The best GT players can compete with professional drivers. It's not even difficult to believe.

Go on, then - How does training to press a button while sat on a stationary sofa translate to better sensing weight transfer and co-ordinating all four limbs through muscle memory?
How does moving a thumbstick translate to increased awareness and appropriately measured response?
How does staring at a 2-D screen translate to greater all-round observation, forward planning and realistic appreciation of one's own mortality?

Why don't you just write "I tried to play wii but my dentures fell out" next time. It would make you sound a little younger.

Because until you can put on your big boy pants and show me some hard evidence, I will happily remain sounding the old fogey with experience than the kid who knows nothing.

I honestly hoped you would say something like that. Where oh where will I find evidence?


Car simulators - "Former GT Academy winners Wolfgang Reip and Florian Strauss, alongside Japanese Formula 3 and Super GT driver Katsumasa Chiyo, have won the 2015 Bathurst 12 Hour at Australia’s world-famous Mount Panorama circuit."

"GT Academy has turned video gamers to racing drivers over a period of months, and NISMO Athletes have competed at international car racing competitions since 2009.

At the 24 Hours of Le Mans, Lucas Ordoñez finished second in the LM P2 category in 2011 and in 2013 finished third alongside Jann Mardenborough (2011 European winner). In 2014, Wolfgang Reip recorded the first ever all electric lap of the Le Mans circuit, driving in the Nissan ZEOD RC.

In the Blancpain Endurance Series, Jordan Tresson was winner of the GT4 class in 2011. In 2013, the Pro-Am cup was won by Lucas Ordoñez, while the Pro-Am team cup was won by Nissan GT Academy Team RJN, which included Jann Mardenborough, Wolfgang Reip (2012 European winner), Mark Shulzhitskiy (2012 Russia winner), Peter Pyzera (2012 Germany winner) and Steve Doherty (2012 USA winner). In 2015 Reip was part of the team that won the Pro Cup.

GT Academy Winners have also competed in the Dubai 24 Hours, FIA GT Series, FIA World Endurance Championship, British GT Championship, European Formula Three Championships, British Formula Three Championship, TRS Single-Seater Series, IMSA Continental Tire Sports Car Challenge, SCCA Solo National Championship and the United SportsCar Championship. In 2012, Lucas Ordoñez competed at the Petit Le Mans in the Nissan DeltaWing race car, and in 2014 began racing in the Super GT Series, class GT300, with NDDP Racing . In the same year, Jann Mardenborough began racing in the GP3 Series with Arden International, and at Motorland Aragon raced for the first time in a Formula Renault 3.5 test. In September 2014, Nissan announced that former US GT Academy Winners and finalists would be considered for Nissan's new LM P1 Le Mans 24 Hours and FIA World Endurance Championship Team."

Flight simulators - "Captain Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger, who guided his US Airways airliner to safety in New York’s Hudson River in January 2009, saving all aboard, echoes that sentiment. He says that repeated flight training through simulation gave him the "creative reserve" to think outside of the box. It allowed him to land on the water when no other option was possible at the time. "Flight simulator training and team building helped give us the foundation to solve that problem in 208 seconds," he says."

Like you said to the other commenter, how are any of your questions relevant? You said "players of driving games make better real-life drivers than those who don't play such things"
Where was weight balance mentioned then? Your boys lost.

Have you thought about getting an argument before you try to make an argument?

Now I will wait until you change your incontinence pouch and get back to me with whatever weak tish tosh you can make up.

[DanceswithUnix]

Of the people who watch TV, some went on to X-Factor and of those a few were genuinely very good singers. That does not mean that people who watch TV are better singers than people who don't.

It is wonderful that what is clearly an advertising stunt for a video game has exposed some genuine talent. But as I said in my last post, what matters isn't the starting group it is the fact you select one winner out of thousands. You could almost certainly get the same result from "people down the pub" as they will be a similar age and gender mix as the racing sim users. Starting with "People into flower arranging" probably wouldn't be far off, once you apply the filter of "fancy having a go at racing" to drive out the timid ones.

Welcome to the forum though, a brave first couple of posts there

Edit: Flight sims is probably more like it. Not sure it would work for fighter craft, I have only ever had an introductory flying lesson in a Cessna but it seemed more working by numbers than by feel. That would explain why simulator hours are considered relevant to pilots and have for years.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I think if you are in a position to need to shoot a gun,a calm demeanour and being able to take stock of a situation quickly is probably more useful in reality.

[wazzickle]

It's like online vs live poker. Being great at one doesn't guarantee you'll be even passably good at the other, but they share common skillsets, and someone good at one will find the other easier.

[Macman]

Why is Telekloud making an argument out of this?

[DanceswithUnix]

Why is Telekloud making an argument out of this?

Dunno, hopefully we haven't scared him off. I might think he had a basic logic error, but he put a lot of effort into that answer, which is nice. Many on the Internet would have just skipped straight to the name calling

[scaryjim]

... Many on the Internet would have just skipped straight to the name calling

I thought the dentures comment was sailing close to the wind, personally...

But yes, there's a huge difference between "good racing simulator players can also make good racing drivers" and "players of driving games make better real-life drivers than those who don't play such things".

The only way to effectively test the latter would be to assemble a large group of driving gamers and a large group of people who've never played driving games, then subject them all to a number of real-life driving situations and statistically analyse the results to see if there are any differences between the groups...

[Xlucine]

I thought the dentures comment was sailing close to the wind, personally...

But yes, there's a huge difference between "good racing simulator players can also make good racing drivers" and "players of driving games make better real-life drivers than those who don't play such things".

The only way to effectively test the latter would be to assemble a large group of driving gamers and a large group of people who've never played driving games, then subject them all to a number of real-life driving situations and statistically analyse the results to see if there are any differences between the groups...

You'd need an interventional study to really separate correlation & causation, people who are more interested in cars ought to self select into the 'driving games' group.

[Macman]

Top/Pro FPS vs Real World Marksmen.

Real World Marksmen win hands down. Study isn't needed.

[Ttaskmaster]

Like you said to the other commenter, how are any of your questions relevant? You said "players of driving games make better real-life drivers than those who don't play such things"

I'm still waiting for you to cite some actual evidence on that...

Where was weight balance mentioned then? Your boys lost.

You're right.... which is why everyone trains for their driving licence on an XBox now, yes?
Because players make better drivers than non-players, yes?
Not just competitive racing drivers, but everyone, yes?

No?
Can't be true, then.

Have you thought about getting an argument before you try to make an argument?

Have you thought about understanding what the actual argument is before you spit out irrelevant witter that doesn't even address the issue?

Now I will wait until you change your incontinence pouch and get back to me with whatever weak tish tosh you can make up.

I will just let you continue your assumptions and shout arguments at the cheese, while the rest of us continue our shopping.

someone good at one will find the other easier.

May.
They may find the other easier.

I thought the dentures comment was sailing close to the wind, personally...

Depends if I choose to take offense at his assumption of my age... I think he'd be surprised to learn the truth!!

But yes, there's a huge difference between "good racing simulator players can also make good racing drivers" and "players of driving games make better real-life drivers than those who don't play such things".

I'd still argue not.
Just because a few people can do it doesn't make it a universal truth either way.
I know plenty of players who can't drive for spit in real life and would utterly CACK themselves if you put them in command of a real racing car.... heck, they cacked themselves when I showed them what 'spirited driving' in a poxy little 1.9TDi Škoda Octavia was like!!

Fear does a LOT to people's reality.

[Gerrard]

Seems like an obvious thing that FPS != RL Marksmen. However, it is interesting that the report refers to the games as "violent video games" rather than FPS, which may infer that andrenaline or something may have helped.

Regarding racing games versus RL racing, I have to say that there it would seem like there is more transferable skills, but that is because there is more to racing than just the driving aspect. Things like racecraft, racing lines, circuit knowledge and an understanding of how to setup the car and the resulting handling characteristics can be simulated quite well and therefore I would expect people who do so to have a headstart on those who don't. Note, I am referring to sim-racers and not people who can play GT with a gamepad well. But I also agree that after some RL training, it will come down to more than just knowledge, and even skill, but "guts".

Incidently, there was recently a race at CES that Formula E did with 10 sim-racers versus the RL pro-drivers on a simulator that the sim-racers unsurprisingly won. However, the pro-drivers were competitive and I am sure if they had spent years on sim-racing they could have won, but it does show that the skills aren't 100% interchangeable. After all, having years of actually feeling the car move around and giving feedback is different to observing it only. And if the situation was reversed, I wouldn't expect the sim-racers to be close, again mainly due to experience.

[spanna5]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olWCXfwTvhI

Laguna Sega versus the Real thing : Top Gear - That clip should clear things up for you

[Corky34]

So all those years of shooting at waves of aliens that move horizontally back and forth across the screen with a laser cannon have been wasted, that's depressing.

[peterb]

I honestly hoped you would say something like that. Where oh where will I find evidence?


Car simulators - "Former GT Academy winners Wolfgang Reip and Florian Strauss, alongside Japanese Formula 3 and Super GT driver Katsumasa Chiyo, have won the 2015 Bathurst 12 Hour at Australia’s world-famous Mount Panorama circuit."

"GT Academy has turned video gamers to racing drivers over a period of months, and NISMO Athletes have competed at international car racing competitions since 2009.

At the 24 Hours of Le Mans, Lucas Ordoñez finished second in the LM P2 category in 2011 and in 2013 finished third alongside Jann Mardenborough (2011 European winner). In 2014, Wolfgang Reip recorded the first ever all electric lap of the Le Mans circuit, driving in the Nissan ZEOD RC.

In the Blancpain Endurance Series, Jordan Tresson was winner of the GT4 class in 2011. In 2013, the Pro-Am cup was won by Lucas Ordoñez, while the Pro-Am team cup was won by Nissan GT Academy Team RJN, which included Jann Mardenborough, Wolfgang Reip (2012 European winner), Mark Shulzhitskiy (2012 Russia winner), Peter Pyzera (2012 Germany winner) and Steve Doherty (2012 USA winner). In 2015 Reip was part of the team that won the Pro Cup.

GT Academy Winners have also competed in the Dubai 24 Hours, FIA GT Series, FIA World Endurance Championship, British GT Championship, European Formula Three Championships, British Formula Three Championship, TRS Single-Seater Series, IMSA Continental Tire Sports Car Challenge, SCCA Solo National Championship and the United SportsCar Championship. In 2012, Lucas Ordoñez competed at the Petit Le Mans in the Nissan DeltaWing race car, and in 2014 began racing in the Super GT Series, class GT300, with NDDP Racing . In the same year, Jann Mardenborough began racing in the GP3 Series with Arden International, and at Motorland Aragon raced for the first time in a Formula Renault 3.5 test. In September 2014, Nissan announced that former US GT Academy Winners and finalists would be considered for Nissan's new LM P1 Le Mans 24 Hours and FIA World Endurance Championship Team."

Flight simulators - "Captain Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger, who guided his US Airways airliner to safety in New York’s Hudson River in January 2009, saving all aboard, echoes that sentiment. He says that repeated flight training through simulation gave him the "creative reserve" to think outside of the box. It allowed him to land on the water when no other option was possible at the time. "Flight simulator training and team building helped give us the foundation to solve that problem in 208 seconds," he says.".

Training simulators, whether they are for aircraft, cars, submarines etc with motion and force feedback and real controls and indicators and instructors operating the simulator are useful in exploring situations or conditions that would be too dangerous to try out in real life - however they do enable pilots etc to train should those real life situations occur. They are a world away from computer simulations for home use, which while allowing the user to experience something of real life flight (or whatever) cannot provide the same immersive sense of a full simulator costing several million pounds.

There are situations where computer visual simulations are useful for RL training, troops going into unfamiliar territory have used VR simulations to familiarise themselves with the terrain before deployment - it's a question of providing appropriate training for the task in hand,

I have PMd you about the other comments in your posts.