QOTW: Should the UK introduce online voting?

[Top_gun]

When have enough people spoiled their ballot papers to become newsworthy? And, having done so, what did it achieve?

Really comes down to whether people are aware about the issue of spoiling their ballot papers. Most don't. However, there is a growing number of people becoming more aware although we're still a long way from building critical mass.

[Saracen]

Really comes down to whether people are aware about the issue of spoiling their ballot papers. Most don't. However, there is a growing number of people becoming more aware although we're still a long way from building critical mass.

But by definition, if large numbers of people spoil their ballots, the fact that they have done so does not invalidate the election of whoever gets the largest number of "valid" votes because, under electoral law, rejected ballots don't count. Ergo, it's pointless.

That person will be the person elected even if there are far more "spoiled" ballots than votes gor the winning candidate.

Could the number of spoiled ballots ever reach such gargantuan proportions so as to completely undermine the whole system and force a change? Well, it's theoretically possible and, lacking a reliable crystal ball I wouldn't like to guess at if, let alone when. it might happen. I will say that I will neither hold my breath, nor risk a flutter on it at my local betting shop.

I am curious, though. Do you think this will happen, or is it a devil's advocate type of academic argument? I have grave doubts it will ever happen, though that's a 'gut feeling' assessment.

[DanceswithUnix]

But even if you stand and, by some miracle, get elected, what will it achieve?

OK, forget standing as an independent. Fundamentally I hear lots of people complain that they don't like their voting choice and seem to feel the candidates are idiots & they can do better. Go join a party and do better then. That is part of being in a democracy that you have that ability.

Major parties will start you off in a nearby no-hope seat to get you used to what the whole process is about so that you don't mess up in a seat that stood a chance.

[Top_gun]

Here's the Huffington Post guide to spoiling your ballot paper. Enjoy.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entr...b0e95ac1955386

[Ttaskmaster]

If people feel that disconnected with the candidates, perhaps they should stand for election themselves?

It's not about doing a better job than a candidate, it's about the candidate not doing the job they were elected in (and are actually employed) to do - You don't replace a Police Officer, or an engineer with yourself, so you shouldn't have to do that with politicians.

[chrestomanci]

... I'd actually prefer a system where people had to earn the right to vote by performing some kind of public service. Working in emergency services, armed forces, teaching, NHS, etc ought to do it, 'cos goodness knows those doing that an't be doing it for the super-high money. Voluntary service, charity work etc, also qualifies. There no doubt are others.

Just checking, how long since you last read Starship Troopers (SciFi novel in which only military veterans are allowed to vote)

Though the idea has merit, but I think it would not work in practice, and the judgement about what forms of public service count would be very controversial and subject to discrimination.

For example, former soldiers would probably be more right wing than former nurses or social workers. Likewise do we treat a volunteer Sunday school teacher differently from the Muslim equivalent? What if the "Sunday school" belongs to a fringe christian cult or made up religion?

[Ttaskmaster]

Just checking, how long since you last read Starship Troopers (SciFi novel in which only military veterans are allowed to vote)

Not so much in this thread (although I did allude to that), but this has been discussed somewhere around here before, IIRC...

Though the idea has merit, but I think it would not work in practice, and the judgement about what forms of public service count would be very controversial and subject to discrimination.

"A citizen accepts personal responsibility for the safety of the body politic, defending it with his life, a civilian does not".
So they must prove they are willing to put the needs of the community before their own personal well-being. They must prove beyond all doubt that they understand the value of society and are willing to vote for what is best for that society.

To vote is to wield authority; it is the supreme authority from which all other authority derives. Force, if you will... The franchise is force, naked and raw, the Power of the Rods and the Ax. Whether it is exerted by ten men or by ten billion, political authority is force.

To permit irresponsible authority is to sow disaster; to hold a man responsible for anything he does not control is to behave with blind idiocy. Therefore you must determine whether a voter is socially responsible to the extent of his literally unlimited authority.
Thus - Service.

The only discrimination that could be a factor is you can't serve if a psychiatrist determines you can't fully comprehend the Oath of Service. Beyond that, you show up, you get found something you can do.
From there on, it's up to you to complete your service. Quit and you get nothing.

For example, former soldiers would probably be more right wing than former nurses or social workers.

Which is why you allow both, to include perceptions on value from all walks of life.

Likewise do we treat a volunteer Sunday school teacher differently from the Muslim equivalent?

Are they different?
Then no.

What if the "Sunday school" belongs to a fringe christian cult or made up religion?

Religion is your own personal belief in something. Nothing more. It should have nothing to do with 'The State'... and The State nothing to do with your religion... any more than your name, race or gender does.

[peterb]

Nevil Shute proposed a variation of that system in "A Town Like Alice". Everyone had a single vote, but could earn up to 5 more for various reasons, academic qualification one one criteria iirc. There was a 7th vote which was an honour bestowed by the monarch for exceptional civic service.

[chrestomanci]

For example, former soldiers would probably be more right wing than former nurses or social workers. Likewise do we treat a volunteer Sunday school teacher differently from the Muslim equivalent? What if the "Sunday school" belongs to a fringe christian cult or made up religion?

Replying to my own post...

The point I was trying to make is that you have to draw the line somewhere, and the person or body that decides which government employees are considered worthy enough to get a free vote, and which are not will have enormous political power and influence.

For example, while few would question if soldiers and police officers are performing a public service, it gets a bit more ambiguous for workers doing jobs like teaching or nursing that also exist in the private sector. At the far end of the scale you get to office cleaners who will be on the same low pay regardless of if they are cleaning a government or privately owned building, so probably don't deserve any extra reward just from the owner of the building they are working in this week.

If you want to give credit to volunteers then the situation gets even more confusing, which is why I brought up Sunday school, and the possibility of a made up religion. If we allow all religions then anyone could claim to be volunteering for one, and the situation becomes ridiculous, if we don't then some religions get discriminated against. Add to that the extreme atheists who consider all religions to be made up and without legitimacy.

In other words, a find theory, but impossible in practice.

[Ttaskmaster]

The point I was trying to make is that you have to draw the line somewhere, and the person or body that decides which government employees are considered worthy enough to get a free vote, and which are not will have enormous political power and influence.

That body with the power to decide will be The People. It will probably be the last time everyone gets to vote, but everyone gets to decide... that, or the power is seized by a bunch of persons like myself, kinda like how it happened in the book, who then implement Service as the requirement.

For example, while few would question if soldiers and police officers are performing a public service, it gets a bit more ambiguous for workers doing jobs like teaching or nursing that also exist in the private sector.

Gonna stop you there and dismiss the remainder of the argument.
This Service that guarantees Citizenship is not about what job you currently do. You have to volunteer for Service, leave your life behind for whatever period (two years in the book), go do whatever Service role you're best suited to (if you can't find something, we will find something for you) and only then return to a job in the private sector.
The point is that, even if there are public and private nurses and teachers, you are volunteering to do the public service one. You are doing this to prove yourself.

One other point requires that I repeat this quote:
"A citizen accepts personal responsibility for the safety of the body politic, defending it with his life, a civilian does not".
That strongly suggests that Service is likely to be dangerous. So it may be you go to be a teacher to children that live in the middle of a warzone, or something. You prove that you are willing to give up everything to further society's progress, including your life.

Everyone in the Service is a volunteer. There is no being pressed into Service... officially, anyway. Social pressure or personal aspirations may well be factors, but officially no-one is forcing you. You have to ask for it.

which is why I brought up Sunday school, and the possibility of a made up religion. If we allow all religions then anyone could claim to be volunteering for one, and the situation becomes ridiculous

Separation of church and state.
Doesn't matter what you believe in, you are here for Service.
Religion is not a factor - Service is for the benefit of all Society, not just those who joined some Tom Cruise cult or Jesus Christ Sing-A-Long meeting... and you won't be doing that role in the Service, you'll be doing something that suits your skils.

[Saracen]

Just checking, how long since you last read Starship Troopers (SciFi novel in which only military veterans are allowed to vote)

Yikes. Umm, dunno. 10 years?

But, at least in fiction, Heinlein had some great idea. Like the society (Number of the Beast??) where the justice system was that whatever criminals did to their victims was what the system did to the criminal as punishment. For example, the drunk who crippled an innocent pedestrian by driving drunk was staked out in the ground before having their legs similarly smashed by driving a car over them, and was then left lying there, bleeding and in agony, for the exact same 18 minutes that their victim had to wait for emergency help.

Heinkein's ethos was that the result was a VERY low crime rate, and almost everybody treated everybody else with the utmost courtesy and civility. And even lower incidence of rape.

But that, nonetheless, it wasn't as idyllic a place to live as it first appeared.


Note - Can't remember offhand which book it was, but it was the one where the 'heroes' invent a contraption that lets them travel through 6 dimensions into a vast array of parallel universes, some of which are virtually identical and others that are utterly alien.

[Ttaskmaster]

But that, nonetheless, it wasn't as idyllic a place to live as it first appeared.

Such things never are... but certainly better with social attitudes toward bettering the country as a whole, rather than a bunch of individuals focussed more on what they can get out of it for themselves alone, I'd say...

[DanceswithUnix]

It's not about doing a better job than a candidate, it's about the candidate not doing the job they were elected in (and are actually employed) to do - You don't replace a Police Officer, or an engineer with yourself, so you shouldn't have to do that with politicians.

I would like to point out that the police go through a training regime and an engineering degree takes a minimum of 3 years. Of that list the politicians are the most easily replaced in terms of skill set, they are just people like you and I. Clearly there is no entrance exam or IQ test to being an MP, just a strong enough opinion to stand.

So yes the MPs should do the job they were elected for, and we don't usually see the amount of time spent in surgery talking to locals and trying to help them so I suspect many do a far better job than the tabloids would have us believe. But still, I suspect with so many millions of possible candidates out there the ones we have are not the best, but most people don't even think for a second of standing as an MP.

[Ttaskmaster]

Of that list the politicians are the most easily replaced in terms of skill set, they are just people like you and I.

But just like being a copper or an engineer (not to be confused with an Engineer, who has actual qualifications even if not a protected job title), being a successful politician requires you be a certain type of person and not everyone could do that job.

Clearly there is no entrance exam or IQ test to being an MP, just a strong enough opinion to stand.

And theoretically a sufficient understanding of 'how things work' in this country...

So yes the MPs should do the job they were elected for, and we don't usually see the amount of time spent in surgery talking to locals and trying to help them so I suspect many do a far better job than the tabloids would have us believe.

The job is to deliver what they promised us and what subsequently got them elected to a position from which they could deliver. They were made a horse, they were led to water, and now they have to drink... which is possibly the most abstract analogy I've ever conceived, but it's been a long day!

but most people don't even think for a second of standing as an MP.

Having seen that the job appears to comprise diverting attention from things, wittering around to avoid actually answering any questions, and trying to shout over the speakers from any other parties, I'm not surprised no-one is stepping up.

[scaryjim]

... just like being a copper or an engineer (not to be confused with an Engineer, who has actual qualifications even if not a protected job title), being a successful politician requires you be a certain type of person and not everyone could do that job. ...

The vast majority of people who are elected to parliament will never be "successful politicians" - they will spend their entire political careers on the back benches, campaigning, working for their constituents, with hardly anyone knowing their names. You don't need to be a politician to be a member of parliament. That's not your job. Your job is represent the views of your constituents. That takes no special skill beyond listening to people.

[Ttaskmaster]

That takes no special skill beyond listening to people.

It's certainly seems a rare skill though, given how many talk about how wonderful their party is and how few actually listen to the replies...!!