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Thread: Intel announces laptop gaming chips with AMD Radeon graphics

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    Not a good person scaryjim's Avatar
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    Re: Intel announces laptop gaming chips with AMD Radeon graphics

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    ... Obviously I'm guessing that a 4/8 core/thread Kaby Lake mobile CPU paired with a custom Polaris like GPU in a 65-100W TDP envelope is going to be similar in performance to a 4/8 core/thread Ryzen Mobile APU paired with Vega GPU in a 25W TDP, ....
    The GPU in the Intel set up has more than twice the shaders and dedicated HBM2. It's going to obliterate the Vega 8/Vega 10 iGPs in Raven Ridge. And since the extra TDP can be balanced between the CPU and GPU it should perform well in any situation.

    This part isn't competing with APUs. It's competing with existing Intel H-series mobile chips paired with a GTX 1050 Ti or GTX 1060, putting that kind of performance into a smaller chassis. It kind of makes sense for them to do a desktop NUC version - it's never going to be a socketed processor that you can drop in to a motherboard yourself, but the integration will fit nicely into a tiny micro-PC where you'll also not have battery life or device weight to worry about so much. You can provide more power and beefier cooling systems to get mid-range gaming desktop performance in a NUC-sized package....

    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    Umm,you mean like the XBox One X GPU??
    I've not seen much info on the XBox One X GPU CAT; got any links handy?

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    Re: Intel announces laptop gaming chips with AMD Radeon graphics

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    I've not seen much info on the XBox One X GPU CAT; got any links handy?
    https://www.gamespot.com/forums/syst...ga-n-33402577/

    Apparently the PS4 also has Vega derived features such as FP16. So both seem to be a mishmash of Polaris and Vega features.


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    Re: Intel announces laptop gaming chips with AMD Radeon graphics

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    The GPU in the Intel set up has more than twice the shaders and dedicated HBM2. It's going to obliterate the Vega 8/Vega 10 iGPs in Raven Ridge. And since the extra TDP can be balanced between the CPU and GPU it should perform well in any situation.

    This part isn't competing with APUs. It's competing with existing Intel H-series mobile chips paired with a GTX 1050 Ti or GTX 1060, putting that kind of performance into a smaller chassis. It kind of makes sense for them to do a desktop NUC version - it's never going to be a socketed processor that you can drop in to a motherboard yourself, but the integration will fit nicely into a tiny micro-PC where you'll also not have battery life or device weight to worry about so much. You can provide more power and beefier cooling systems to get mid-range gaming desktop performance in a NUC-sized package....
    I always forget Ryzen mobile doesn't come with HBM (seems a daft move to me) but when did we find out how many shaders the AMD dGFX that Intel are going to be using has, either way it still seems odd for Intel to be pairing a better performing CPU with what looks to be a previous generation GPU.

    I get how pairing Kaby Lake with an AMD GPU is going to compete with Nvidia but if that's the case why isn't AMD just slapping on some HBM to a Ryzen 7 2700U or coming up with a Ryzen mobile paired with a Vega 20, isn't Ryzen Mobile within a few IPC's of Kaby Lake mobile?

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    Re: Intel announces laptop gaming chips with AMD Radeon graphics

    AFAIK,the interposers are thicker than EMIB as it lies on top of the substrate and is not embedded into it. OTH,we also don't know how long this project has been in the works for - it could have been before Ryzen was a fully known quantity.


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    Re: Intel announces laptop gaming chips with AMD Radeon graphics

    Good point, i forgot about the interposers, i know they apparently have a maximum size so i wonder if a Ryzen CCX + Vega + HBM exceeds that size, indulging in some wild speculation here but maybe AMD agreed to supply Intel with custom last gen GPU's if Intel agreed to supply them with EMIB further down the road.

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    Re: Intel announces laptop gaming chips with AMD Radeon graphics

    It seems Raja Kodori has joined Intel to develop discrete GPUs: https://www.anandtech.com/show/12017...hief-architect

    Seems like a strange move given they've just selected AMD graphics for some of their CPUs!

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    Re: Intel announces laptop gaming chips with AMD Radeon graphics

    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 09-11-2017 at 02:44 PM.


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    Re: Intel announces laptop gaming chips with AMD Radeon graphics

    Interesting; I wonder if that die is something semi-custom for Intel, or if we might see it as an entry-level Vega GPU? HBM2 could make it cost-prohibitive though for that market I guess. I might have a go guestimating the die size later.

    I wonder Intel are using an existing die for the CPU section, or if they've produced something specifically for this product without an IGP? My thoughts are probably not given the target market size and that something like a quad core CPU would likely be pad-bound with such a small die. Also given it looks a bit larger than the HBM2 die, it's likely >100mm2 so same as the standard die with IGP.

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    Re: Intel announces laptop gaming chips with AMD Radeon graphics

    Quote Originally Posted by watercooled View Post
    Interesting; I wonder if that die is something semi-custom for Intel, or if we might see it as an entry-level Vega GPU? HBM2 could make it cost-prohibitive though for that market I guess. I might have a go guestimating the die size later.

    I wonder Intel are using an existing die for the CPU section, or if they've produced something specifically for this product without an IGP? My thoughts are probably not given the target market size and that something like a quad core CPU would likely be pad-bound with such a small die. Also given it looks a bit larger than the HBM2 die, it's likely >100mm2 so same as the standard die with IGP.
    Rumours say it is a 24 CU design with around R9 285 level performance. Some other rumours put it between a GTX1050TI and a GTX1060.


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    Re: Intel announces laptop gaming chips with AMD Radeon graphics

    Quote Originally Posted by watercooled View Post
    Interesting; I wonder if that die is something semi-custom for Intel, or if we might see it as an entry-level Vega GPU? ...
    There are rumours of a Vega-based replacement for the RX 580, but I'd assume that would have more shaders than this. The release from Intel explicitly calls it "custom-to-Intel", so the development might even have contained clauses forbidding AMD using this exact design. OTOH, the rumours also reckon this doesn't have some of the special Vega sauce (like Infinty Fabric), so AMD creating a "proper" Vega 24 isn't out of the question, I guess...?*

    Quote Originally Posted by watercooled View Post
    I wonder Intel are using an existing die for the CPU section, or if they've produced something specifically for this product without an IGP? ...
    Can't remember where, but at least one of the comments I've read about this is that the graphics will be switchable. Given the whole thing apparently has a Kaby codename (Kaby-G, I think?) my guess would be it's the same CPU die as the Kaby-R 15W quad cores...


    *EDIT: hmmm, an interesting possibility just occurred to me. Z-heights might make it impracticable, but I wonder if AMD could stick a small GPU + HBM on a normal package MCM along with, say, a couple of CPU dies. Can anyone think of a product that uses a couple of CPU dies and has some spare space on a package that needs balancing....?

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    Re: Intel announces laptop gaming chips with AMD Radeon graphics

    I still can't work out why AMD didn't make a similar chip as this one, why they stopped at making two Ryzen mobile CPU's with rather weak iGP and no HBM.

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    Re: Intel announces laptop gaming chips with AMD Radeon graphics

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    I still can't work out why AMD didn't make a similar chip as this one, why they stopped at making two Ryzen mobile CPU's with rather weak iGP and no HBM.
    This probably is a solution for Apple,and if it is using Polaris based graphics was probably in the works for quite a while before Ryzen was a viable option. Also,AMD needs to get traction with OEMs first. So I suspect time to market and whether they would get market penetration. I expect once Ryzen is more established we will see something like this over the next few years.

    However,something else about EMIB. An interposer needs to be on top of the substrate and EMIB is embedded into the substrate so I expect its a thinner solution too.


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    Re: Intel announces laptop gaming chips with AMD Radeon graphics

    I guess AMD are probably making as many Ryzen cpu's and Vega's as they can right now. Not much sense in spreading it all around that much, get some products out and cash in then diversify
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    Re: Intel announces laptop gaming chips with AMD Radeon graphics

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    There are rumours of a Vega-based replacement for the RX 580, but I'd assume that would have more shaders than this. The release from Intel explicitly calls it "custom-to-Intel", so the development might even have contained clauses forbidding AMD using this exact design. OTOH, the rumours also reckon this doesn't have some of the special Vega sauce (like Infinty Fabric), so AMD creating a "proper" Vega 24 isn't out of the question, I guess...?*
    That smaller Vega is supposed to be GDDR5 based for lower cost & mass market availability.

    I don't know how much volume Intel can get for this product, but it does make it seem like a niche high end device.

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    However,something else about EMIB. An interposer needs to be on top of the substrate and EMIB is embedded into the substrate so I expect its a thinner solution too.
    True, but you are talking about a very thin interposer and a few microbumps to connect them so probably not as important as cost differences to most people. Nothing Intel does seems to be cheap

    But then as you point out, the biggest influence on Intel integrated graphics is Apple screaming for more performance, so perhaps on Apple products a reduction of 0.1mm is worth a price premium.

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    Re: Intel announces laptop gaming chips with AMD Radeon graphics

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    That smaller Vega is supposed to be GDDR5 based for lower cost & mass market availability. ...
    Really? Does that mean it'll have a High Bandwidth Cache Controller ... but no High Bandwidth Cache?! Or are they going to claim that the GDDR5 is the cache?

    I really wish AMD could keep their feature-sets straight...

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