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Thread: Nissan unveils Brain-to-Vehicle, or B2V, research

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    Nissan unveils Brain-to-Vehicle, or B2V, research

    B2V can speed up driver reaction time at critical moments.
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    Re: Nissan unveils Brain-to-Vehicle, or B2V, research

    Getting EEG to work in a typical car is not a simple task, normally research is done in a Faraday cage to eliminate any induced voltages. I wonder how they're making the car "brake better" or "corner better" with the forewarning?

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    Re: Nissan unveils Brain-to-Vehicle, or B2V, research

    Quote Originally Posted by Xlucine View Post
    Getting EEG to work in a typical car is not a simple task, normally research is done in a Faraday cage to eliminate any induced voltages. I wonder how they're making the car "brake better" or "corner better" with the forewarning?
    My friend whose a neuroscientist was telling me about all of the electrode technologies they use and in most cases the signals being read for this kind of thing are strong enough thatbwith shielded electrodes and cabling you dont need outside shielding from outsource emf. However if you go for deep brainwave analysis like for image recognition or thought type recordings then absolutely having an emf free environment is a must.

    But apparently you can pull a substantial amount just from basic electrodes. But the weird thing is they generally still need a form of interface gel else they can be really noisynjust from the natural electromagnetic charge of your skin. I'd be throroughly interested to see what kind of electrode technology they are using and whether or not outsource noise would cause my car to inadvertently apply the brakes xD

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    Re: Nissan unveils Brain-to-Vehicle, or B2V, research

    Oh jeez, will manufacturers PLEASE stop with these stupid ideas for future cars... they're solutions to problems that don't even exist!!

    When most people think about autonomous driving, they have a very impersonal vision of the future, where humans relinquish control to the machines. Yet B2V technology does the opposite
    Then it doesn't matter what they think, because by definition this is NOT autonomous, is it???!!!
    Idiots....

    by using signals from their own brain to make the drive even more exciting and enjoyable
    You mean the car will stream adverts from whoever inevitably sponsors this junk, and plaster it inside all the windows to the literally captive audience within? Yay, progress.....

    more autonomy, more electrification and more connectivity
    The more connected, the more hackable and/or susceptible to system bugs. Good plan.
    Oh, I'm sure it will indeed have THE absolute latest in technology, software and security... How's that working out for Intel and Micosoft?

    You want to take a powerful weapon like a car and connect it directly to the most irrational, stuffed up brains on the planet?
    Go home Nissan, you're drunk!!

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    Re: Nissan unveils Brain-to-Vehicle, or B2V, research

    Quote Originally Posted by Xlucine View Post
    I wonder how they're making the car "brake better" or "corner better" with the forewarning?
    Don't see how they can. If your foot is on the accelerator, then the car shouldn't be breaking. Second law of robotics.

    My car senses when you take your foot very quickly off the accelerator, and starts filling the brake calipers on the expectation you will hit that pedal next. No brain wiring required.

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    Re: Nissan unveils Brain-to-Vehicle, or B2V, research

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    Don't see how they can. If your foot is on the accelerator, then the car shouldn't be breaking. Second law of robotics.

    My car senses when you take your foot very quickly off the accelerator, and starts filling the brake calipers on the expectation you will hit that pedal next. No brain wiring required.
    But .... you've answered your own question.

    You said it yourself .... your car senses you taking the foot off the accelerator, and predicts what comes next. But for that to be happening, your foot has to be moving.

    Now, if this B2V idea works, they're looking at .... call it 'latency' in the process of luzard brain reacts to stimulus, conscious mind thinks "need to brake", nerve signals get sent, muscles contract, bones move, foot lifts and only then does your cars predictive tech start anticipatoty loading of brake cylinders.

    But if we're talking about sensing, direct from the brain, that your noggin is about to brake, then it can bypass all the really slow mechanical bits like muscles, etc.

    If you like it's like SSD rather than HD .... you get the speed improvement largely from keeping it electical and eliminating the really slow mechanical bits of spinning platters and relocating read heads.



    Whether the public will, literally, buy into the concept or not is anothdr matter. Then again, it's not as big a leap in public acceptance as fully autonomous cars ... which, despite my personal reservations, I do belueve is coming, and relativsly soon. Just as soon as the tech is proven and they sort out the far trickier issues like liability for crashes, insurance, etc.
    Noli nothis permittere te terere.


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    Re: Nissan unveils Brain-to-Vehicle, or B2V, research

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    Now, if this B2V idea works, they're looking at .... call it 'latency' in the process of luzard brain reacts to stimulus, conscious mind thinks "need to brake", nerve signals get sent, muscles contract, bones move, foot lifts and only then does your cars predictive tech start anticipatoty loading of brake cylinders.
    But my foot on the brake is saying how much to brake, and sometimes that matters. Many modern cars have awful tiny brakes which they try and compensate with by over assisting them, perhaps in that case it doesn't matter. My car is ready for my braking command, if it wants to actually predict my braking command then it has to get the timing and pedal pressure right. Stuff that, if a car is going to do that it can make it's own decision rather than trying to guess mine and take over, and autonomous emergency braking is already an established thing.

    I want either me in command or the car. ABS gives me a new way to command the brakes (stamp hard), BFD gives me better brakes but still under my control, emergency braking takes over when I as a dumb monkey don't spot an inevitable collision.

    I expect this assistance is a tech that would have to be tried, but my gut reaction is too many cooks spoil the brakes.

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    Re: Nissan unveils Brain-to-Vehicle, or B2V, research

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    But .... you've answered your own question.
    Not to my satisfaction, really... The answer is simply that there are no throttle cables any more. It's all done off a sensor now, basicially a potentiometer. All the car has to do is cut that signal and switch to braking, which is how it could brake with your foot still flat out on the go-button.
    Indeed many cars already semi-do this, by dropping the engine revs when you brake, which is why the Left Foot Braking concept most often championed by those who think they can drive special is not actually as useful as they think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    But if we're talking about sensing, direct from the brain, that your noggin is about to brake, then it can bypass all the really slow mechanical bits like muscles, etc.
    And that's why it's a bad idea.
    The brain is a highly confused and rapidly redirecting thing. You can think, "Ooh cack, brake brake brake", but by the time you get your foot started on the brake the situation can change and you then adapt halfway through to successfully navigate it.
    So the idea of a car that brakes before you can is not always a fantastic idea... unless all our roads will be dead straight test tracks from now on?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    Whether the public will, literally, buy into the concept or not is anothdr matter. Then again, it's not as big a leap in public acceptance as fully autonomous cars
    Actually, I believe the opposite - People will far sooner just give up control to a car than spend 20 minutes slapping on conductive neural biogel, strapping on wires and electrodes, plugging themselves in and calibrating everything just for a slightly faster (but not necessarily better) control system.

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    Re: Nissan unveils Brain-to-Vehicle, or B2V, research

    It's not April Fools' Day.

    It's not April Fools' Day.

    It's not April Fools' Day.



    ...Maybe I should revisit this on April Fools' Day, and it will then make sense to see it. I just can't take it seriously.

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    Re: Nissan unveils Brain-to-Vehicle, or B2V, research

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    But my foot on the brake is saying how much to brake, and sometimes that matters. Many modern cars have awful tiny brakes which they try and compensate with by over assisting them, perhaps in that case it doesn't matter. My car is ready for my braking command, if it wants to actually predict my braking command then it has to get the timing and pedal pressure right. Stuff that, if a car is going to do that it can make it's own decision rather than trying to guess mine and take over, and autonomous emergency braking is already an established thing.

    I want either me in command or the car. ABS gives me a new way to command the brakes (stamp hard), BFD gives me better brakes but still under my control, emergency braking takes over when I as a dumb monkey don't spot an inevitable collision.

    I expect this assistance is a tech that would have to be tried, but my gut reaction is too many cooks spoil the brakes.
    Unless I misread the article, it's not saying that the entire braking process is brain-controlled, but that part of the mechanical lag can be anticipated and predicted, much as your existing car anticipates the lag of pre-loading brake pistons.

    I mean, I didn't study it closely, but that's the way I read it. Not that it's removing total control from conscious action, but reducing the lag.
    Noli nothis permittere te terere.


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    Re: Nissan unveils Brain-to-Vehicle, or B2V, research

    Quote Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster View Post
    Not to my satisfaction, really... The answer is simply that there are no throttle cables any more. It's all done off a sensor now, basicially a potentiometer. All the car has to do is cut that signal and switch to braking, which is how it could brake with your foot still flat out on the go-button.
    Indeed many cars already semi-do this, by dropping the engine revs when you brake, which is why the Left Foot Braking concept most often championed by those who think they can drive special is not actually as useful as they think.

    ...

    And that's why it's a bad idea.
    The brain is a highly confused and rapidly redirecting thing. You can think, "Ooh cack, brake brake brake", but by the time you get your foot started on the brake the situation can change and you then adapt halfway through to successfully navigate it.
    So the idea of a car that brakes before you can is not always a fantastic idea... unless all our roads will be dead straight test tracks from now on?

    ....

    Actually, I believe the opposite - People will far sooner just give up control to a car than spend 20 minutes slapping on conductive neural biogel, strapping on wires and electrodes, plugging themselves in and calibrating everything just for a slightly faster (but not necessarily better) control system.
    Well, I agree .... and don't. I thinm it all depends on implementation.

    Again, as I read it, it's supposed to be about speeding up the process of brain-deciding to action happening, not replacing the thought process.

    After all, there was that bit about adapting driving techniques. Do you remember, as a novice driver (or rider) that going from a car/bike you're used to to one you weren't was very disconcerting. The car felt weird, and was reluctant to do what you wanted .... until you got the 'feel' of brakes, steering, handling, etc. But the more you drive/ride different vehicles, the less that mattered, and the faster you adapted. Now, I can switch from a van to a Ferrari without giving it much thought. I think there's a couple of things going on, one of which is adapting muscle-memory, and the other hand-eye-equipment co-ordination.

    Another example .... ever been clay-pidgeon shooting? Other things work too, including shooting (gun or camera) anything fast-moving. But clay pidgeons coming fast and at varying angles, require you to adapt to the gun, and most especially to the lead time and trajectory. If you could reduce the time between making the decjsion to fire, and firing, you'd have to reduce the lead.

    Now suppose you were fiting a laser. The travel time of the "shot" is effectively zero, instantaneous, but you'd still have to lead a fast moving object to account for your body's reaction time. The more you reduce that, the closer you get to aiming where the clay is, rather than where it's going to be at the right time.

    We humans are very good (well, those of us that can hit the ground with a shotgun) at integrating what is actually a hugely complex maths problem .... just like driving.

    I can see how any tech that can reduce lag times could improve driving. Not that it will, but could. Whether it does or not 8depends in large part on how it's implemented, and on that I'm with you .... sceptical.
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    Re: Nissan unveils Brain-to-Vehicle, or B2V, research

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    I can see how any tech that can reduce lag times could improve driving. Not that it will, but could. Whether it does or not 8depends in large part on how it's implemented, and on that I'm with you .... sceptical.
    I'd say more on how/when it operates.
    There have been a few occasions in my road-faring career when I've had to hit the brakes, a few of which may have benefited from slightly earlier pre-braking... but a massively higher number of occasions when I've gotten so far as covering the brake, only to find a completely different situation developed within a few fractions of a second and my actions required something other than braking - Had the vehicle pre-braked at those points, the outcomes would actually have been pretty bad.

    Now if these brain-carriages can factor the above in, then fine. Fit me with a hole in the head and plug me in Morpheus... but if not, then why bother?

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