Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: Samsung starts mass production of 5th gen V-NAND

  1. #1
    HEXUS.admin
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    27,151
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked
    1,672 times in 581 posts

    Samsung starts mass production of 5th gen V-NAND

    This 96-layer V-NAND uses a Toggle DDR 4.0 interface running at 1.4Gbps.
    Read more.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    MOMBASA
    Posts
    784
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked
    19 times in 18 posts

    Re: Samsung starts mass production of 5th gen V-NAND

    SSD tech is confusing nowadays: V-NAND versus 3D X-point which rules?

  3. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    112
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked
    2 times in 2 posts

    Re: Samsung starts mass production of 5th gen V-NAND

    Quote Originally Posted by lumireleon View Post
    SSD tech is confusing nowadays: V-NAND versus 3D X-point which rules?
    In what terms and use case? I think that 3D x-point wins in performance but V-NAND in price and price/performance.

    One step closer to reach SSD price/performance of HDD. Good

  4. #4
    Registered+
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    34
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked
    2 times in 2 posts

    Re: Samsung starts mass production of 5th gen V-NAND

    HDDs only have price, they have no performance.

  5. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    112
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked
    2 times in 2 posts

    Re: Samsung starts mass production of 5th gen V-NAND

    Quote Originally Posted by Glyce View Post
    HDDs only have price, they have no performance.
    Not a very true statement. However indeed I made mistake there - I meant price/size.

  6. #6
    Senior Member chrestomanci's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Reading
    Posts
    1,588
    Thanks
    90
    Thanked
    93 times in 77 posts
    • chrestomanci's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus AMD AM4 Ryzen PRIME B350M
      • CPU:
      • AMD Ryzen 1600 @ stock clocks
      • Memory:
      • 16Gb DDR4 2666MHz
      • Storage:
      • 250Gb Samsung 960 Evo M.2 + 3Tb Western Digital Red
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Basic AMD GPU (OSS linux drivers)
      • PSU:
      • Novatech 500W
      • Case:
      • Silverstone Sugo SG02
      • Operating System:
      • Linux - Latest Xubuntu
      • Monitor(s):
      • BenQ 24" LCD (Thanks: DDY)
      • Internet:
      • Zen FTTC

    Re: Samsung starts mass production of 5th gen V-NAND

    Quote Originally Posted by Glyce View Post
    HDDs only have price, they have no performance.
    They also have wear resistance. If you have a write heavy application, that fills and overwrites your storage many times a day. (Think security cameras, or a DVR), then almost any type of SSD will wear out and fail within months. The magnetic domains in an HDDs will cope fine with getting re-written millions of times, but the cells in an SSD will stop working after about 10k writes.

  7. #7
    Evil Monkey! MrJim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    London
    Posts
    1,672
    Thanks
    139
    Thanked
    248 times in 195 posts
    • MrJim's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus P8Z77-V
      • CPU:
      • Intel 3570K 'Ivybridge'
      • Memory:
      • 8GB Corsair Vengence LP
      • Storage:
      • Samsung 830 256GB SSD 1TB Samsung 850 Evo SSD, 2 x 2TB Seagate HDD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Zotac GTX 1070 Amp 8GB
      • PSU:
      • Seasonic X-660
      • Case:
      • Silverstone FT-02 Black
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 8.1 Pro
      • Monitor(s):
      • Viewsonic 27" XG2703-GS
      • Internet:
      • 72mb/s fibre

    Re: Samsung starts mass production of 5th gen V-NAND

    Quote Originally Posted by chrestomanci View Post
    the cells in an SSD will stop working after about 10k writes.
    It can be a lot less than that; the latest QLC NAND is only good for about 1K program / erase cycles. Obviously wear-leveling & over provisioning can extend the life of a drive for quite some time, but as data densities increase, NAND cell lifetime tends to decrease...

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    290
    Thanks
    12
    Thanked
    48 times in 38 posts

    Re: Samsung starts mass production of 5th gen V-NAND

    Quote Originally Posted by MrJim View Post
    It can be a lot less than that; the latest QLC NAND is only good for about 1K program / erase cycles. Obviously wear-leveling & over provisioning can extend the life of a drive for quite some time, but as data densities increase, NAND cell lifetime tends to decrease...
    Is there any software out there that's free and can look at how much of the overprovisioned space has been used and therefore give you an idea of how long your drive has left? I have an old 80GB Intel SSD that I may want to consider removing from service (although there's nothing essential on it now and it's backed up).

  9. #9
    root Member DanceswithUnix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    In the middle of a core dump
    Posts
    8,849
    Thanks
    400
    Thanked
    876 times in 750 posts
    • DanceswithUnix's system
      • Motherboard:
      • M5A-97 EVO R2.0
      • CPU:
      • FX-8350
      • Memory:
      • 16GB ECC 1333
      • Storage:
      • 660GB Linux, 500GB Games (Win 10)
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Asus Strix RX Vega 56
      • PSU:
      • 650W Corsair TX
      • Case:
      • Antec 300
      • Operating System:
      • Fedora 27 + Win 10 Pro 64 (yuk)
      • Monitor(s):
      • Benq XL2730Z 1440p + Samsung 2343BW 2048x1152
      • Internet:
      • 80Mb/20Mb VDSL

    Re: Samsung starts mass production of 5th gen V-NAND

    Quote Originally Posted by DevDrake View Post
    Not a very true statement. However indeed I made mistake there - I meant price/size.
    Size? If your pockets are deep enough you can get pretty big SSDs, and in a tiny 2.5in form factor to boot.

    Quote Originally Posted by chrestomanci View Post
    They also have wear resistance. If you have a write heavy application, that fills and overwrites your storage many times a day. (Think security cameras, or a DVR), then almost any type of SSD will wear out and fail within months. The magnetic domains in an HDDs will cope fine with getting re-written millions of times, but the cells in an SSD will stop working after about 10k writes.
    And yet things like dashcams continuously write to a Micro-SD card which generally have pitiful endurance compared to SSD. Recording a lot of security cameras onto a single hard drive, yeah that requires spinning rust to work at reasonable cost (which again is price/performance).

    Note also that the next HAMR generation of HDD will require a laser to write data, and semiconductor lasers have a life expectancy before they fail which doesn't look that much better than SSD write endurance.

  10. #10
    root Member DanceswithUnix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    In the middle of a core dump
    Posts
    8,849
    Thanks
    400
    Thanked
    876 times in 750 posts
    • DanceswithUnix's system
      • Motherboard:
      • M5A-97 EVO R2.0
      • CPU:
      • FX-8350
      • Memory:
      • 16GB ECC 1333
      • Storage:
      • 660GB Linux, 500GB Games (Win 10)
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Asus Strix RX Vega 56
      • PSU:
      • 650W Corsair TX
      • Case:
      • Antec 300
      • Operating System:
      • Fedora 27 + Win 10 Pro 64 (yuk)
      • Monitor(s):
      • Benq XL2730Z 1440p + Samsung 2343BW 2048x1152
      • Internet:
      • 80Mb/20Mb VDSL

    Re: Samsung starts mass production of 5th gen V-NAND

    Quote Originally Posted by philehidiot View Post
    Is there any software out there that's free and can look at how much of the overprovisioned space has been used and therefore give you an idea of how long your drive has left? I have an old 80GB Intel SSD that I may want to consider removing from service (although there's nothing essential on it now and it's backed up).
    It isn't like the spare sectors on a HDD mapping out failed sectors, it seems to be more down to providing plenty of slack space to make it easier for the flash controller to maintain wear levelling.

    Standard SMART tools should tell you how much data has been written. smartctl on Linux says my Samsung drive is 98% good:

    177 Wear_Leveling_Count 0x0013 098 098 000 Pre-fail Always - 25

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    290
    Thanks
    12
    Thanked
    48 times in 38 posts

    Re: Samsung starts mass production of 5th gen V-NAND

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    It isn't like the spare sectors on a HDD mapping out failed sectors, it seems to be more down to providing plenty of slack space to make it easier for the flash controller to maintain wear levelling.

    Standard SMART tools should tell you how much data has been written. smartctl on Linux says my Samsung drive is 98% good:

    177 Wear_Leveling_Count 0x0013 098 098 000 Pre-fail Always - 25
    Ah, I dunno why but I can't get my brain to switch from the old HDD sector to SSD pages. That makes sense. I was wondering if the SMART stuff in the BIOS would warn you when a failure is imminent.

    Mine was an early consumer SSD and it's getting on a bit now (I'm sure well past the MTBF but by WD Raptor HDD is also....) so I think it's prudent to poke at it and see how decrepit it really is.

  12. #12
    Gentoo Ricer
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Galway
    Posts
    10,762
    Thanks
    935
    Thanked
    910 times in 676 posts
    • aidanjt's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus Maximus VII Gene
      • CPU:
      • Intel i7-4771
      • Memory:
      • 2x8GB Corsiar LP 1866MHz C10
      • Storage:
      • 250GB Samsung 850 EVO
      • Graphics card(s):
      • EVGA GTX 970 SC ACX 2.0
      • PSU:
      • Corsair RM550
      • Case:
      • Fractal Design Define Mini
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 7 x64
      • Monitor(s):
      • Asus MK241
      • Internet:
      • 240mbps UPC Cable

    Re: Samsung starts mass production of 5th gen V-NAND

    Quote Originally Posted by MrJim View Post
    It can be a lot less than that; the latest QLC NAND is only good for about 1K program / erase cycles. Obviously wear-leveling & over provisioning can extend the life of a drive for quite some time, but as data densities increase, NAND cell lifetime tends to decrease...
    On the flip side, as SSDs approach hard drive volumes, you need to do far less write per cell.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent View Post
    ...every time Creative bring out a new card range their advertising makes it sound like they have discovered a way to insert a thousand Chuck Norris super dwarfs in your ears...

  13. #13
    root Member DanceswithUnix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    In the middle of a core dump
    Posts
    8,849
    Thanks
    400
    Thanked
    876 times in 750 posts
    • DanceswithUnix's system
      • Motherboard:
      • M5A-97 EVO R2.0
      • CPU:
      • FX-8350
      • Memory:
      • 16GB ECC 1333
      • Storage:
      • 660GB Linux, 500GB Games (Win 10)
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Asus Strix RX Vega 56
      • PSU:
      • 650W Corsair TX
      • Case:
      • Antec 300
      • Operating System:
      • Fedora 27 + Win 10 Pro 64 (yuk)
      • Monitor(s):
      • Benq XL2730Z 1440p + Samsung 2343BW 2048x1152
      • Internet:
      • 80Mb/20Mb VDSL

    Re: Samsung starts mass production of 5th gen V-NAND

    Quote Originally Posted by philehidiot View Post
    Ah, I dunno why but I can't get my brain to switch from the old HDD sector to SSD pages. That makes sense. I was wondering if the SMART stuff in the BIOS would warn you when a failure is imminent.
    No reason why not, but in practice SSDs seem to just fall off a cliff with no warning.

  14. #14
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Posts
    9
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked
    0 times in 0 posts

    Re: Samsung starts mass production of 5th gen V-NAND

    Actually don't Intel Ssd's simply go into read only mode ... and that is done regardless of true ability to go on, just as soon as the allowed 1000 drive writes are done, or service life is over.
    Media wear out indicator .... (intel kiss of death)

  15. #15
    Senior Member chrestomanci's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Reading
    Posts
    1,588
    Thanks
    90
    Thanked
    93 times in 77 posts
    • chrestomanci's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus AMD AM4 Ryzen PRIME B350M
      • CPU:
      • AMD Ryzen 1600 @ stock clocks
      • Memory:
      • 16Gb DDR4 2666MHz
      • Storage:
      • 250Gb Samsung 960 Evo M.2 + 3Tb Western Digital Red
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Basic AMD GPU (OSS linux drivers)
      • PSU:
      • Novatech 500W
      • Case:
      • Silverstone Sugo SG02
      • Operating System:
      • Linux - Latest Xubuntu
      • Monitor(s):
      • BenQ 24" LCD (Thanks: DDY)
      • Internet:
      • Zen FTTC

    Re: Samsung starts mass production of 5th gen V-NAND

    Quote Originally Posted by persimmon View Post
    Actually don't Intel Ssd's simply go into read only mode ... and that is done regardless of true ability to go on, just as soon as the allowed 1000 drive writes are done, or service life is over.
    *SOME* Intel SSDs go into read only mode when they wear out, other Intel SSDs, and most other brands just stop working and take your data with them. TheTech Report did a wear out until they are dead test a few years ago.

    More recently there was this rant on the Debian-ARM mailing list, from a Linux dev who's options I trust.

    Quote Originally Posted by lkcl@lkcl.net

    firmware on low-cost (and newly-designed unusual) SSDs is extremely
    dodgy. one of the drives that i tested literally crawled to an
    absolute stand-still after a certain sustained amount of parallel
    writing (from different processes). the article went out on slashdot
    and i was given some advice about it: stop the parallel write
    queueing. there's a linux kernel parameter somewhere for it... i
    didn't get to try it out unfortunately.

    this was after OCZ had been caught switching on a firmware #define
    which they had been TOLD under no circumstances to enable as it causes
    data corruption (they wanted to be "faster" than the competition).
    the data corruption was so bad it actually in some cases overwrote the
    actual firmware *on the drive*, meaning that the SSD was no longer...
    an SSD.

    the only reasonably-priced SSDs i trust now are the intel s35xx
    series. other drives such as the toshibas which are also supposed to
    have supercapacitors for "enhanced power loss protection", the
    supercapacitors simply aren't large enough, so a sustained series of
    writes above a certain threshold speed, pull the power and there's not
    enough in the supercapacitors to cover the time it takes to save the
    cached data.

    only the intel s35xx series has had the work put into it,
    technically, to do the job *at a reasonable price*. i ran a 4-day
    test writing several terabytes of data, the power was randomly pulled
    at between 7 and 25 second intervals, for a total of six and a half
    THOUSAND times, and *not a single byte* was lost. which is deeply
    impressive.

    the s37xx series is by a different team and they use the rubbishrubbishrubbishrubbishwit
    marvel "consumer" chipset that's so troublesome in kingston, crucial
    and other SSDs.

    really not being funny or anything: if you care about your data
    (*and* your wallet) just don't buy anything other than intel s35xx
    series SSDs. of course if you have over $10k to spend there are
    plenty of data-centre quality SSDs.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •