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Thread: Intel Core i9-9900K and i7-9700K to feature soldered IHS

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    Re: Intel Core i9-9900K and i7-9700K to feature soldered IHS

    Quote Originally Posted by watercooled View Post
    I'm not sure where the internal roadmap stands now but on early rumours of 10nm troubles I was expecting something more like Broadwell where the first iteration on the node didn't make it to desktop where high clocks are desired, but was still useful for mobile where its power savings desirable.
    BTW,update on Intel 10NM from the company in the last few hours:

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/26/inte...s-q2-2018.html

    In the second-quarter results, Intel said that its 10-nanometer yields are "on track" with systems on the market in the second half of 2019. Krzanich's previous perspective wasn't specific on whether they would arrive in the first half of next year or in the second half. On the conference call with analysts on Thursday, Swan was more specific and said products would be on shelves in time for the holiday season.
    So Intel has 10NM systems in 2H 2019,which fits in with what the CEO said a few months ago about 14NM being current for at least 12 to 18 months from May of this year.

    Apparently holiday season as defined by Google is:

    (in the US) the period of time from Thanksgiving until New Year, including such festivals as Christmas, Hanukkah, and Kwanzaa.
    That would mean November 2019,so say October to November next year as Thanksgiving 2019 is on the 28th of November.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 27-07-2018 at 12:46 AM.

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    Re: Intel Core i9-9900K and i7-9700K to feature soldered IHS

    Corky, Cat, knock it off, will you, please.

    Corky, the "insult" was that 'fanboi-ish' crack. However neutrally phrased, the inference was clear. And unnecessary.

    Cat - you undermibe you case about insults when you get aggressive back.

    So both of you, for pities sake, give it a rest. It's too hot already without starting a flame war.

    Besides, I for one was finding the actual issues you two are arguing about interesting, so stick to that, eh?

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    Re: Intel Core i9-9900K and i7-9700K to feature soldered IHS

    Intel's TIM solution (whether that's the compound itself, its application, or the seemingly inconsistent gap between die and IHS is another debate), is objectively rubbish. It's perfectly logical - you have a core sitting at 80-90C and the IHS gets barely lukewarm. Guess what, that means there's a high thermal resistance in the path between the two. It's not some fanboy nonsense and nor is it in any way subjective - it's very easy to measure. Plenty of tower coolers (mine included) leave a tiny bit of the IHS exposed so you can stick a thermocouple on it. In my case, core temps can be easily >80C while the IHS is <50C.

    People having to delid, replace the TIM and get rid of the stack of glue holding the IHS to get overclocking headroom is yet more objective proof. There are also plenty of people complaining about stock CPUs throttling under load and with a decent cooler, and I can well believe it going from my own sample. But like I said the gap seems to vary so some are affected more than others.

    AMD not soldering their APUs is incomparable - they're lower power parts which do not suffer from these issues. The same is true of many of Intel's lower power parts too.

    There's plenty of hand waving and excuses for the decision to not solder. Assuming there's a genuine reason and it's not just overzealous penny-pinching, why not just use a better thermal compound? Why not try to reduce the inconsistency in the die-IHS gap? After all, they made an attempt for the Haswell Refresh...

    Also, don't assume a company will ignore a tiny cost per product in relation to their margins. Bits here and there add up. Take CPU microarchitecture as a relevant example, individual changes can make tiny, sub-1% improvements to IPC in isolation, but all added together they make a new core. Sports car manufacturers will go to the effort of saving a few grams here and there by making indicator stalks smaller, using different materials for dust caps, etc. WRT to not soldering, it's almost definitely not not because of cost! I.e. cost is certainly a consideration!

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    Re: Intel Core i9-9900K and i7-9700K to feature soldered IHS

    The fanboy'ish statement was directed at how a thread about Intel and the type of TIM they use was being used to crow on about AMD.

    Having said that I'll leave this thread here as for some reason it seems telling another forum user that "you look an utter tool" and being aggressive is perfectly acceptable behavior.

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    Re: Intel Core i9-9900K and i7-9700K to feature soldered IHS

    @Corky34: I was surprised and disappointed at your post above. Maybe I haven't been paying attention but yours is not a name that I would have associated with insult. You responded to CAT calling you out on it by denying that you were being insulting. Perhaps it will help if I tell you how your post came across to me.

    Corky: And those reasons are all more sound than it was because of cost, but don't take my word for it, there's plenty of evidence that it was for reasons other than cost but i suspect you already know that as you, like myself, have had this discussion with many people, on many forums over the years.
    "But i suspect you already know that" - I use this to suggest to someone that they are lying. It's only implied, so the subtle message is easily denied, nevertheless, it's a flame tactic more than a debating one.

    Corky: Sorry but i only caught the start and end of that part as i struggle to find the relevance in a great big images that I've seen a hundred times and claims that something is crappy and horrendous, it's to much subjectivity for me to handle and a little fanboy'ish.
    This is peppered with insults and surely doesn't need to be explained. The smile at the end doesn't raise the sinking ship.

    Cat: Next year is going to be VERY interesting indeed!
    Corky: Personally every year is a very interesting year for me when it comes to tech, it's why it interests me so much as unlike a lot of fields its not stagnated to the same degree.
    This one's subtle too. CAT said nothing contentious, there was nothing up for debate, it was just an expression of excitement and enthusiasm. Your comment about interestingness being a constant property for you basically conveys the message "Calm down, fanboy" but it uses a somewhat superior tone rather than direct language. In the context of the other comments, it's a flame.

    Now you may or may not agree with my interpretations but the fact is, until now, I've never seen anything from you that shows you in this light. That said, this is extremely mild compared to what I've seen - and written myself - in politics and climate science forums, lol, so don't think of this as too big a deal. Hexus hosts a most enjoyably level-headed forum and you are one of the people that make it that way.

    -------------------------------

    @CAT: Once a flame has roused emotions, any expectation of placid communication thereafter is unrealistic. Your tit-for-tat response needn't be examined in detail, nor Corky's responses to those.

    You are, like Corky, someone that I have not thought of as less than a gentleperson until this minor aberration. As I said above, maybe I haven't been paying attention, or maybe you two fight like cat and, er, cork in other venues, but I've not seen it here. I assume that today is a blip (maybe heat related?).

    -------------------------------

    Okay, I'm going to take off my Hall Monitor Badge and put my Occasional Silly Remarks and Bad Jokes Badge back on. All the best to you both. I enjoy your contributions, long may that continue. :-)

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    Re: Intel Core i9-9900K and i7-9700K to feature soldered IHS

    Quote Originally Posted by devBunny View Post
    @Corky34: I was surprised and disappointed at your post above. Maybe I haven't been paying attention but yours is not a name that I would have associated with insult. You responded to CAT calling you out on it by denying that you were being insulting. Perhaps it will help if I tell you how your post came across to me.

    "But i suspect you already know that" - I use this to suggest to someone that they are lying. It's only implied, so the subtle message is easily denied, nevertheless, it's a flame tactic more than a debating one.
    If you know my name then you may also know i don't imply things, if i wanted to call CAT a lair i would have.

    I said "i suspect you already know that" because I'm fairly certain that CAT knows full well that we've had the exact same conversation about the TIM that Intel uses in the past, and even if CAT was not involved in that past debate with myself on this forum he made it quiet clear that he's had similar discussions with other people on other forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by devBunny View Post
    This is peppered with insults and surely doesn't need to be explained. The smile at the end doesn't raise the sinking ship.
    IMO saying someone is being overly subjective for claiming something is crappy and horrendous is not an insult, it certainly wasn't intended as such, it was intended to highlight the fact that there's no evidence for the TIM being crappy and/or horrendous, in fact most evidence points towards the TIM being of high quality (Notice that the Intel stock CPU TIM outperforms the NT-H1 replacement TIM once the CPU-to-IHS gap is identical).

    Granted saying someone is bordering on fanboy'ish behavior for posting great big images of AMD and crowing about AMD in a thread about Intel and the TIM they use could be seen as insulting but in my defense saying anyone who thinks Intel used silicon based TIM for any other reason than cost is wrong is insulting in itself, especially as, like i said, that was a topic that has been discussed at length in the past, once when the person making those accusations actually participated in the discussion and once when they didn't.

    So yes i probably over reacted when someone who i had this conversation with only five months ago says anyone who disagrees with him that it was done purely for cost is wrong, for that i apologise, it was a hot afternoon and i didn't have the patience to re-run a conversation i had 5 months ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by devBunny View Post
    This one's subtle too. CAT said nothing contentious, there was nothing up for debate, it was just an expression of excitement and enthusiasm. Your comment about interestingness being a constant property for you basically conveys the message "Calm down, fanboy" but it uses a somewhat superior tone rather than direct language. In the context of the other comments, it's a flame.
    Fair enough, as i said i didn't have the patience to read through the rest of the post as from what i could tell it was completely irrelevant to the subject being discussed, it had nothing to do with Intel or thermal interface materiel's.

    Quote Originally Posted by devBunny View Post
    Now you may or may not agree with my interpretations but the fact is, until now, I've never seen anything from you that shows you in this light. That said, this is extremely mild compared to what I've seen - and written myself - in politics and climate science forums, lol, so don't think of this as too big a deal. Hexus hosts a most enjoyably level-headed forum and you are one of the people that make it that way.
    It seems CAT knows how to push my buttons.

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    Re: Intel Core i9-9900K and i7-9700K to feature soldered IHS

    HAHA AMD pushing Intel into reusing soldering, tell you what I hope Zen 2 is within 10% of Intel because I'll buy that just to support the competition.

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    Re: Intel Core i9-9900K and i7-9700K to feature soldered IHS

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    IMO saying someone is being overly subjective for claiming something is crappy and horrendous is not an insult, it certainly wasn't intended as such, it was intended to highlight the fact that there's no evidence for the TIM being crappy and/or horrendous, in fact most evidence points towards the TIM being of high quality (Notice that the Intel stock CPU TIM outperforms the NT-H1 replacement TIM once the CPU-to-IHS gap is identical).
    I don't think you're responding to me, but I was careful to say 'TIM solution', by which I meant the implementation of the material between the die and heatspreader, hence why I spoke about the gap too. Holistically, the implementation is rubbish. Whether the composition of the thermal compound itself is terrible is academic, but the fact they used something else for the Haswell refresh at least suggests otherwise. Perhaps it would be decent when compared to retail TIMs, when used as an IHS>heatsink interface material, but for its purpose it could still be poor. There are a few properties of TIM that have to be taken into account e.g. how they perform at different thicknesses. As an example, big TIM roundup reviews often test with different mounting pressures for this reason: https://www.tomshardware.co.uk/therm...w-33969-9.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Fury559 View Post
    I hope Zen 2 is within 10% of Intel because I'll buy that just to support the competition.
    Depending how you're comparing performance, that's probably already the case.

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    Re: Intel Core i9-9900K and i7-9700K to feature soldered IHS

    Quote Originally Posted by watercooled View Post
    I don't think you're responding to me, but I was careful to say 'TIM solution',
    So did I - I said TIM based solution,as opposed to "TIM". Seems like the interwebs needs things spelt out a bit! If it is so brilliant then you wouldn't have threads like this one on Hexus:

    https://forums.hexus.net/cpus/388553...-hoonigan.html

    Stickied nonetheless by a mod and thanked by many members and staff.

    Its makes me wonder whether people have actually ever bothered building various Intel based SFF systems and seeing how his much vaunted TIM based solution works in reality,compared to some of the earlier Intel chips with different solutions.

    Plus post 19 is right on the money,I have noticed exactly the same thing myself - the core temperatures and IHS temperatures are very different. Even a touch of the heatsink in warm weather can tell you the chip itself is not pumping out much heat especially since I am using a sub 70W TDP chip myself and lots of the SFF systems I built were the same. But the need to keep temperatures in check,whilst keeping noise down has meant somewhat oversized thermal solutions,which is further compounded in smaller cases.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 27-07-2018 at 03:32 PM.

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    Re: Intel Core i9-9900K and i7-9700K to feature soldered IHS

    You misspelt toothpaste.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent View Post
    ...every time Creative bring out a new card range their advertising makes it sound like they have discovered a way to insert a thousand Chuck Norris super dwarfs in your ears...

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    Re: Intel Core i9-9900K and i7-9700K to feature soldered IHS

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    It seems CAT knows how to push my buttons.
    You are the master of your own reactions...

    I think we should move to direct fab block cooling straight onto the die, frag the IHS!

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    Re: Intel Core i9-9900K and i7-9700K to feature soldered IHS

    Quote Originally Posted by Tabbykatze View Post
    You are the master of your own reactions...

    I think we should move to direct fab block cooling straight onto the die, frag the IHS!
    Like the original Athlons:



    You certainly knew very quickly if your thermal solution was not up to scratch!

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    Re: Intel Core i9-9900K and i7-9700K to feature soldered IHS

    Another issue with the Intel thermal solution,the IHS also does not help as an aftermarket copper one showed improvements:

    https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/3...pu-rockit-cool

    This is with Thermal Grizzly Conductonaut which is a liquid metal thermal interface material,and temperatures dropped 5C going with a better IHS over the stock one,using the same thermal interface material.

    From reading into this it seems this is somewhat down to an increase in surface area of the aftermarket IHS.

    They tested the Ryzen APUs which also has a TIM based solution(yay!),but they found the stock IHS and aftermarket one made no difference:

    https://www.gamersnexus.net/hwreview...ven-ridge-apus

    GN also tested Thermal Grizzly Conductonaut against Intel TIM:

    https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/3...nchmarks-7900x

    Its not only temperatures which dropped massively,but GN also went onto what we are saying about coolers too,since it means you need to ramp up fan speed,or a heatsink which has a high capacity to remove heat quicker.

    Conclusion: Liquid Metal vs. Thermal Paste on Delidded CPUs

    We want to make clear – primarily for Intel – that this isn’t just looking at CPU thermal performance from the perspective of overclocking. Yes, a higher frequency can be had more easily by driving down temperatures, but that’s not the core of this. Intel has a few classes of users with these HEDT CPUs, one of which includes professional workstation users, another includes enthusiasts, and then some smaller grouping of “I want the best and have lots of money” users.

    For almost all of these, perhaps excluding overclocking enthusiasts, noise is a concern. Cost of the cooling solution is a concern. The near-necessity to purchase high-end 240 & 280mm coolers and run them at max or near-max fan speeds means that there is a hidden cost to these CPUs, and it’s in the cooler. Overclocking starts demanding exotic solutions, custom loops, or 360-420mm radiators with high-end fans. Prices are high on all of these components and noise is high, and yet, not one of these solutions is remotely as efficient at improving thermal performance as a $5 liquid metal application. We are not asking Intel to use liquid metal, but we’d ask that the company considers something between the current Dow Corning TIM and our liquid metal stand-in as “anything better.” Solder has been done in the past, but it may be out of the cards depending on the real reason for sticking to TIM – this could be a matter of grants and environmental impact, it could be engineering challenges (that somehow exist now and not previously, granted), it could be cost, or it could be something else altogether. We don’t know.

    What we do know is that, just from the above testing, Intel isn’t doing the best it can, and the company is failing to exploit its biggest advantage over AMD – significant overclocking headroom given controlled thermals. For non-overclocking workstation users, we defer to this chart from one of our previous noise tests on CLCs:



    Above: Taken from one of our CPU cooler reviews, the higher dBA units are what would be deployed for keeping X299 CPUs reasonably cool.

    Intel HEDT parts would put you, if we’re being generous, in the range of the ~50dBA CLCs at max RPMs. Existing in an ambient environment greater than ours (24C), like a case (we’ve seen up to 40C internal case ambient in some units), means that the cooler requirement boosts along with noise output.

    There are more arguments for Intel to consider than just “we want to overclock higher because we’re enthusiasts,” and those arguments must be made to convince a giant like Intel to listen. Enthusiast overclocking is insignificant. Noise emissions, higher cooler costs, OEM fear of high liquid temperatures that could breach Asetek specification – these are all strong arguments against Intel’s present HEDT TIM practices. Just looking at some of the liquid temperatures hitting the 50-55C range, it’s clear that we’re rapidly approaching the 60C limiter before tripping Asetek’s out-of-spec concerns. Inside of a case, that’s easily done in heavy load scenarios (like AVX workloads). We’d implore OEM giants like Dell and HP to perform internal testing of CLC-enabled HEDT products under various workloads, particularly AVX, to determine if Intel’s TIM is forcing those companies to border on the cooler spec or forcing higher-end cooler purchases, thus potentially losing competitive edge.

    If Intel is going to listen to anyone, it’s going to be OEMs.
    With SKL-X you can see the issues,hence why Intel used a chiller unit to cool its 5GHZ 28 core CPU which it demoed recently.

    Edit!!

    Also,here is what happens when you use liquid metal on a Core i7 8700K:





    Looking at the temperature difference,that would mean higher fan RPMs on a CPU using stock TIM. Also apparently power consumption goes up 10W to 20W too with using TIM.

    This is why some Core i7 8700K reviews can have relatively higher power consumption as I expect some test rigs are running very hot compared to some others.

    So Intel using solder on a 5GHZ Core i7 9900K is also as much about keeping power consumption down too.

    This is also probably why Ryzen has solder and very decent stock coolers,so they can run cooler.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 27-07-2018 at 04:29 PM.

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    Re: Intel Core i9-9900K and i7-9700K to feature soldered IHS

    I think one of the main issues with direct-die cooling is fragility - mount a heavy or high mounting pressure cooler incorrectly or jolt it and you risk cracking the die.

    Another issue, but only when compared to a soldered IHS, is heat transfer itself. With a soldered IHS you have a very low resistance path to the larger surface area of the outside of the IHS meaning it will compensate for relatively lower conductivity interface (per mm2) between it and a heatsink. I really don't think you could improve on that by using direct-die cooling - the IHS, being copper, is already very low resistance. Of course, using a paste as the interface completely drops that advantage, as can be seen with Intel's current CPUs.

    Also yeah, with no thermal mass in an IHS you also increase the risk of the CPU self-destructing if the cooler isn't mounted properly.

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    Re: Intel Core i9-9900K and i7-9700K to feature soldered IHS

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    So did I - I said TIM based solution,as opposed to "TIM". Seems like the interwebs needs things spelt out a bit! If it is so brilliant then you wouldn't have threads like this one on Hexus:....
    Actually you didn't...
    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    It also means people who were defending Intel not using TIM for XYZ reasons,ie,its for the environment,it will damage the chip,etc can see the real reason - cost.
    Although as it seems we're generally in agreement that the real reason is not down to cost maybe we can discuss things further and put what's been said behind us, if not then it's probably best to stop reading from here.

    Having got that out the way is the thermal interface materiel (TIM) solution Intel chosen to use the ideal one for thermal management? No, we only have to look at the reductions in temperatures people get from delidding to see that. Could it be improved? Probably, but I'd like to think Intel's R&D budget hasn't all been spent on hookers and drugs, that there's good reason for not reducing the 0.06mm (going on the measurements Idontcare on the Anandtech forums recorded) any more, off the top of my head there's things like manufacturing tolerances, varying pressures from heatsinks, and age related settling of the epoxy.

    Just in those three variables there's plenty of room for variance and getting anyone of them wrong risks reputation damage, if OEM's and data centres started seeing 10% or so failure rates on CPU's years after they bought them they wouldn't be happy, remember what happened when, was it Nvidia or Apple, iGPU's started failing because of bad solder bumps?

    If it's really down to cost then here's a thought experiment, if money wasn't an object then how would you improve on Intel's thermal interface materiel (TIM) solution?
    Last edited by Corky34; 27-07-2018 at 04:33 PM.

  22. #32
    ETR316
    Guest

    Re: Intel Core i9-9900K and i7-9700K to feature soldered IHS

    better late than never, all you HATERS

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