London Gatwick flights begin again after drone disruptions

[Ttaskmaster]

However as this appears to be a commercial 'heavy lift" drone, those frequencies may be different, or the uplink/downlink channels may be multiplexed in the same frequency band.

Presumably someone who knows what they're looking for can scan and identify a specific signal, before tracking them down?
The Post Office were finding unlicenced radio operators like that in 1927, so surely we can still do it today?

Jamming the signal would also be impractical as you'd first have to isolate the signal, no mean feat around an airport with thousands, perhaps millions of those.

Why would you have to isolate it?
If you're already stopping planes from flying, you might as well blast the area with wide range jamming... enough to swamp the control transmitter and bring the drone crashing down, at least.
It might disrupt a lot of other local things in the meantime, but the delay will be far shorter and of less inconvenience than grounding a few hundred flights.

You're also measuring the cost of this short delay against either 120,000 passengers wanting compensation for missed flights, or potentially any number of lost lives - How many passenegers would an incoming Airbus A380 have? 600-odd?

Multiply that up for the 125-odd UK drone incidents in 2018 and compare it to buying in some (presumably military-based) SIGINT type kit.
Also more reliable than Bobby BTP with a shotgun, I'd guess...

[Saracen999]

Jamming the signal won't necessarily crash the drone. If it's reasonably sophisticated (to the kevrl of a £200-ish retail drone) that may well simply trigger it to go home - that being GPS-based launch point.

Blanket jsmming could also crash police radio, ambulances, hospitals, just wbout every wifi router, and who knows what else.

As for RDF (Radio Direction Finding) sure, it can be done. But you need at least two 'finders', and you need to know which signal to 'find'. One 'finder' locked on gives you a bearing and perhaps a vague idea of distance if you can approximate signal strength. But you need two, preferably more, to triangulate. And bear in mind, the higher the frequency, the more prone to blockages, by buildings, etc, so line-of-sight is highly desirable.

Now factor in that a typical drone battery gives you 20-30 mins, and there's nothing to say it'll be transmitting that long. If it's, say, 5 mins from launch site to Gatwick, even if you spot it straight away you still have to identify the right signal to RDF it. So if it handers about for 5 mins then flees, you've got 10 mins to spot it, identify the right frequency, locate and transmitter and get there. Otherwise, my guess is the drone will be in the boot of a xar, back of a van, whatever .... and off.

Next time it shows up, maybe several hours later, you get maybe another 10 min window. And if the numpty just waits 'til it's likely to have been spotted and turns the Tx off, relying on the signal-list-go-home function, you won't even get 10 mins. At that point, you have to physically follow the drone .... visually. Even standard drones can do 30-40 mph, and racing drones MUCH more. Say, 80mph for the fastest. From what little info I've seen, these are to big to be real racers, but even so, they're fast, agile and from any distance, pretty small to follow visually.

And even if you can crash the drone, It's unlikely to be registered to the culprit, who'll likely break out #2, and carry on.

My bet is the police do have someone trying to RDF this, and given a couple of units and a clean signal, computerised RDF can fairly accurately pinpoint a ,ocation in seconds. But police still need to get there before numpty up-sticks and moves.

So yeah, it's possible, but if any form of counter-measures are being used (like ooerating from a car, and moving bases) it ain't going to be easy.

And what if the numpty has a driver, and the van is moving while the drone is in the air? Good luck RDF'ing that. For example :-

1) Launch drone.
2) During 5 mins flight time, drive while flying it.
3) Hover at airport. RDF'ing starts.
4) After 5 mins, power Tx down and drive back to launch point.

Even if the RDF got you, it'll point to where you were at stage 4, not where both you and the drone are going, 1/2 a mile away, at stage 1.

[Saracen999]

Oh, and some drones can fly pre-programmed paths with way-points. Sort-of launch and forget. You coukd then do the first bit on auto, then power up the radio and fly manually for a but, then shut down and go to where you know the drone will go.

Of course, we could ask the US military to shut GPS down.

[Saracen999]

....

I thought they had birds of prey that were trained to go take drones out of the sky these days, remember seeing something about it a few years back.

It's been done, but IIRC, it wasn't in the UK, and didn't work terribly well. Apparently the birds weren't terribly keen on tackling the drones. Maybe it's all those fast-spinning blades?

Still, we could always fly them in fro Sweden, or wherever it was. We're right by an airpo ... oh, wait ...

[Corky34]

If you have a spare 45min there was an interesting talk at DEF CON last year talking about drone defenses, they basically say they're mostly snake oil.

[spacein_vader]

I understand why they don't want to fire bullets at them for safety but every airport has its own fire station.

A standard civilian appliance can sustain a good 50bar (around 725 psi,) which can push it up to a couple of hundred feet if needed and airport appliances usually have more power than that. You could use it as a water cannon unless the drone was operating at the very top of its range.

Worth a try I'd have thought, especially as the cost is virtually zero.

[Saracen999]

That's certainly an option, but I'd think it'd depend on getting the appliance close enough, however close that is, without being spotted by the drone operator. Given that the drone almost certainly has an on-board camera providing a live feed, and has apparently been flying off whenever police approached, getting a fire tender close enough might be tricky. Depending on exactly what the dtone soec is, they can be fast, agile and, of course, manouvre in 3D.

[spacein_vader]

That's certainly an option, but I'd think it'd depend on getting the appliance close enough, however close that is, without being spotted by the drone operator. Given that the drone almost certainly has an on-board camera providing a live feed, and has apparently been flying off whenever police approached, getting a fire tender close enough might be tricky. Depending on exactly what the dtone soec is, they can be fast, agile and, of course, manouvre in 3D.

Good point. Fire appliances are many things, but subtle isn't one of them.

[Saracen999]

Good point. Fire appliances are many things, but subtle isn't one of them.

Maybe the military could provide a bit more subtle - camouflage rather than bright red and the size of an .... ummm .... fire engine. Yknow, better suited for sneaking up on a fire

[Ttaskmaster]

If it's reasonably sophisticated (to the kevrl of a £200-ish retail drone) that may well simply trigger it to go home - that being GPS-based launch point.

I did consider that, as you'd then know exactly where the errant controller is, but dismissed it as I assumed no-one would be stupid enough to give away their position like that..... surely?

Blanket jsmming could also crash police radio, ambulances, hospitals, just wbout every wifi router, and who knows what else.

Hence putting out a site-wide notification before you do it!
You don't need to go far, just within the airport's own area of operations... ie, the space you're not supposed to fly drones within. If local residents don't like it, I'm sure it will be reflected in their attitudes toward drone fliers showing up!

But again, if it's a toss up between losing your internet for a couple of hours every now and then, or having a 747 crash onto your house, which do you think most people will vote for?

As for RDF (Radio Direction Finding) sure, it can be done. But you need at least two 'finders', and you need to know which signal to 'find'.

Two is not a problem.
As for finding the right signal - You'll already know what signals should be around (because it's your kit), so eliminating them should leave comparatively little left to scan through.

One 'finder' locked on gives you a bearing and perhaps a vague idea of distance if you can approximate signal strength. But you need two, preferably more, to triangulate.
Yes, and we used to play Fox Hunt with CB decades ago.
These days you have kit like this thing, which will calculate a bearing to a transmitter in less than a second: http://www.kn2c.us/

Put some of those all around the airport perimeter and fire away. Triangulate inside and outside the fence.

And bear in mind, the higher the frequency, the more prone to blockages, by buildings, etc, so line-of-sight is highly desirable.

You know those really tall buildings airports have? You know, the ones with all the comms dishes and antennae atop them?
Well...........

Failing that, chuck up some defence towers around the airport perimeter, or employ some drone pilots of your own, to either fly equipped detector drones or even to combat the illegal drones. We're about to make all our fighter pilots redundant, so I'm sure they'll take the job, and each year you'll have a wealth of computer-game-qualified combat pilots finishing school and needing a paying job...
Ender's Game? Sure, why not!!

So if it handers about for 5 mins then flees, you've got 10 mins to spot it, identify the right frequency, locate and transmitter and get there.

BTP can really move their behinds when the need arises... especially if they think they'll get the chance to shoot someone.
Deliberately interfering with aircraft could quite conceivably count as an act of terrorism too, so it'd be live ammo all round...

But police still need to get there before numpty up-sticks and moves.

What's the signal range on these things, anyway?

And what if the numpty has a driver, and the van is moving while the drone is in the air? Good luck RDF'ing that.

Well we could just let planes crash, and/or simply cancel flights 100+ times a year for several days each time...

[DanceswithUnix]

What's the signal range on these things, anyway?

Range on consumer drones can be a mile or two. But if programmed with GPS way-points that could be irrelevant.

GPS can be spoofed though, I would have thought if the drone could be convinced it was at 5000ft altitude via GPS then you could force it down.

Most fun way to take this out: although I'm sure we don't want lead flying around the air from guns I'm sure a round could be made that burned as it travelled, like tracer fire but without a bullet at the front. That way rounds that miss would burn up before they hit the ground, rounds that hit would damage the drone. Need a machine gun belt full. More fun than lasers

Boring way, a drone could follow the rogue drone and see where it goes.

[Ttaskmaster]

GPS can be spoofed though, I would have thought if the drone could be convinced it was at 5000ft altitude via GPS then you could force it down.

I like the idea of that...

although I'm sure we don't want lead flying around the air from guns I'm sure a round could be made that burned as it travelled, like tracer fire but without a bullet at the front. That way rounds that miss would burn up before they hit the ground

At those speeds mentioned above, it'd have to fully burn out in well under 6 seconds, assuming the drone is flying at 400ft... and even then, whatever is left will still be hot.
It also relies on precise and consistent targeting.

There are numerous possible solutions, but ultimately bringing a drone down (especially a big one weighing 25kg+) at 40mph or more is a serious danger to the public, whichever way you look at it.

Boring way, a drone could follow the rogue drone and see where it goes.

I'd expect that to be going on in parallel anyway, or at least a second team working to trace the transmitter.

[Korrorra]

The government and companies were making a big deal about drones and how awesome they are. Promoting them all over the place. Now people are talking about banning them? What a joke.

[DanceswithUnix]

I'd expect that to be going on in parallel anyway, or at least a second team working to trace the transmitter.

But it might not use a transmitter. But there is a physical drone, it moves at drone speed so I don't see why another drone couldn't follow it.

My only worry with that is that is sounds like "To stop a bad man with a drone you need a good man with a drone".

[Saracen999]

I did consider that, as you'd then know exactly where the errant controller is, but dismissed it as I assumed no-one would be stupid enough to give away their position like that..... surely?


Hence putting out a site-wide notification before you do it!
You don't need to go far, just within the airport's own area of operations... ie, the space you're not supposed to fly drones within. If local residents don't like it, I'm sure it will be reflected in their attitudes toward drone fliers showing up!

But again, if it's a toss up between losing your internet for a couple of hours every now and then, or having a 747 crash onto your house, which do you think most people will vote for?


Two is not a problem.
As for finding the right signal - You'll already know what signals should be around (because it's your kit), so eliminating them should leave comparatively little left to scan through.

One 'finder' locked on gives you a bearing and perhaps a vague idea of distance if you can approximate signal strength. But you need two, preferably more, to triangulate.
Yes, and we used to play Fox Hunt with CB decades ago.
These days you have kit like this thing, which will calculate a bearing to a transmitter in less than a second: http://www.kn2c.us/

Put some of those all around the airport perimeter and fire away. Triangulate inside and outside the fence.


You know those really tall buildings airports have? You know, the ones with all the comms dishes and antennae atop them?
Well...........

Failing that, chuck up some defence towers around the airport perimeter, or employ some drone pilots of your own, to either fly equipped detector drones or even to combat the illegal drones. We're about to make all our fighter pilots redundant, so I'm sure they'll take the job, and each year you'll have a wealth of computer-game-qualified combat pilots finishing school and needing a paying job...
Ender's Game? Sure, why not!!


BTP can really move their behinds when the need arises... especially if they think they'll get the chance to shoot someone.
Deliberately interfering with aircraft could quite conceivably count as an act of terrorism too, so it'd be live ammo all round...


What's the signal range on these things, anyway?


Well we could just let planes crash, and/or simply cancel flights 100+ times a year for several days each time...

Oh, there are ways and means, depending on how many resources you throw at it, but I think you are missing my points, which is that unless the drone numpty is, well, really a complete numpty, it's not entirely straight-forward.

Firstly, as I said, even some cheap drones have fall-back modes in the event of signal loss. That might be "go home", with that being launch point. So, numpty positions drone at point A, moves to point B, and then initiates a remote launch.

If, then, someone jams the signal, the drone returns to launch position, i.e. point A. Mr Plod, who has dutifully RDF'd said numpty, hotfoots to point B where the signal (if he can isolate it), which by now is empty because numpty, noticing that the drone isn't responding, has shut down the Tx, and is making his way to point A. No signal ever originated from A, making it un-RDF-able.

Or, a variant.

Some drones have auto-takeoff and auto-land.

So, point A is the roof of a block of flats or an office. Numpty, on noticing the drone is not responding, hotsfoots it to the nearest cafe for a bacon sarnie, leaving the drone to head for it's roof-top nest, where it'll likely still be a week later.

Meanwhile, Mr Numpty gets drone 2 out, moves to the far side of airport, and starts again.

And that's without the pre-programmed waypoint options

To actually convict someone, you're pretty much going to need to catch someone in the act. My Tx has settings for 100 different aircraft, all customisable, so even if I happen to be in the area, all I'd need to do is have a couple of model heli's with me, and be "on the way", to or from, flying them and even catching me with a radio is merely evidence that I fly model aircraft .... which is no secret. Deleting the drone profile from the radio's memory, or renaming/replacing, is the work if about 5 seconds.

Range? Depends on the equipment, and the locale. My kit doesn't have onboard cameras, so I'm limited by keeping the things within sight, but the radios have far greater range than that. Tall buildings, etc, can mess with that, as I said, but so also can a "noisy" environment, like ... well, ... airport radar and all those police and military radios.

Assuming, of course, Mr Numpty isn't a reasonably competent radio engineer and has built an amplifier/repeater. Y'know, like ex-military radio engineers no doubt could?

[Saracen999]

I like the idea of that...

....

You won't like it so much if you happen to be stood right underneath a pound or two (or more) of drone at 1000ft when someone spoofs it like that.