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Thread: Nvidia CEO says AMD Radeon VII "performance is lousy"

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    Re: Nvidia CEO says AMD Radeon VII "performance is lousy"

    I've always been an AMD/Radeon kinda guy, so I hope they're right with all this because I want to see the greens challenged properly by the reds, but frankly at the minute they need this just to stay alive. They seem pretty beat both for CPUs and GPUs right now, truth be told, and this is a good start to fighting back.

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    Re: Nvidia CEO says AMD Radeon VII "performance is lousy"

    Remember that some years ago AMD pinpointed on a graph where the sales / profits were and publicised that they were going to aim for three segments. This basically covered the mid range, higher mid range and then the bottom of the upper tier. There were no real profits to be made at the bleeding edge due to R&D costs, high price and low volume. This can be seen in the range they have out. It's not necessarily that they can not compete at the ultra high end. I'm sure given enough time and money they could. They just don't see the volume being there to justify it and given their R&D budget is small in comparison to Nvidia they're happy to concede the segment. There are obvious downsides here but I'm sure they've considered and decided to accept them.

    Nvidia are stupid releasing this kind of statement. Look at what AMD have released on paper.... things like 16GB of VRAM makes a lot of sense if you want something to last when you examine the new Division 2 specs and see it wants 11GB for top tier 4K gaming. That means that if you're a 4K gamer looking for a long term investment, you're going to have to go for the new AMD card unless your budget extends to over 1K for the 2080Ti. Given 4K monitors are coming into mainstream price brackets now (just) this means people will want 4K capable GPUs at a lower price point.

    The total rubbishing of everything the competition does is utterly irresponsible. It makes it look as if Nvidia see AMD as a serious threat, makes you wonder if you can trust a word out of Nvidia's collective mouth and it also makes people who would have disregarded AMD cards actually look at them seriously. If Freesync doesn't work, why are Nvidia supporting it? Oh and if it doesn't work, all the laptops that have "G-sync" running using VESA's adaptive sync (Freesync) mustn't work either.

    Saying the "performance is lousy" when there are no reliable, independent benchmarks makes me wonder if this person has the sense to be a CEO. This card seems to play current games well, focusses on performance in actual games we have released and not on performance with yet to be properly released experimental tech, provides the VRAM for futureproofing and one would hope has a lot of room for price drops. Start it on price parity, claim it has parity in performance and then drop the price so people see a bargain.

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    Re: Nvidia CEO says AMD Radeon VII "performance is lousy"

    A supposedly responsible CEO of a major company coming out with statements like that is pretty incredible. I could see Trump uttering something like that - but he's a special case.
    Nvidia are clearly worried...given their own 'underwhelming' new hardware, and share price collapse.
    But it is has been obvious for the past few years that Nvidia have the most efficient architecture, and the new Radeon 7 doesn't change that despite the near miraculous revival by AMD over the past 2 years considering the comparative size of budgets available to AMD, Intel and Nvidia for R&D. As long as AMD can challenge Nvidia in the most popular price brackets for comparable performance - they will be OK.
    For now.
    Personally, i think the price of Radeon 7 will be reduced to make it a preferential choice over the 2080.

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    Re: Nvidia CEO says AMD Radeon VII "performance is lousy"

    Jen's correct. IF you hitting 2080 perf, you'll lose the second everyone goes RT+DLSS, or even VRS. All are MUCH faster and in many cases will be better looking doing it.

    I don't care about his attitude or how he says it. Unlike AOC, I care more about facts and data than being morally correct...LOL. Morally correct people and the whole PC crowd can kiss my butt. I have one question: Did you win? I'll buy the winner, not the morally correct loser That said, I'm definitely interested in their cpus (and I own AMD stock...LOL), and can't wait for 64 core server profits to roll in next year. That is why I own the stock, not gpus they keep killing NET INCOME on with HBM. They've screwed 3 flagships in a row now. Fire anyone choosing wads of HBM vs. GDDR5x or GDDR6. Nobody needs 1TB/s bandwidth on a 1440p or less card (AMD demoed on 1080p 100fps for Forza...so even they know it isn't a 4k card!). What a waste of net income and cheaper prices. This card could sell at $550 with 12GB GDDR5x vs. 2080 or heck, maybe even GDDR6 works here at $600 or something. But with 16GB expensive HBM, no features, higher watts, how do you sell it? How do you lower prices without losing margins massively? $175 (at 8GB, so ~$250 or more at 16GB?) or so in memory and how much has it dropped since mid 2017 with not much else using HBM2? That is a far cry from 12GB of GDDR5x for probably $60 today from MU. AMD basically hopes to get margin back on game bundles. I'd rather sell good margin hardware than count on gaming sale bundles to pick up the slack for a potentially "negative margin" product as they note below.

    https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/3032-vega-56-cost-of-hbm2-and-necessity-to-use-it
    Too bad they didn't use GDDR5x in the article (more relevant IMHO), that makes the story much worse as that bandwidth comes back and power goes down while costs are through the floor compared to HBM2. The 1060 can be sold for $299 with 6GB of GDDR5x, so 12GB easily in $550 range while making good margins instead of negative and hoping to make it up on game bundles. These are rough estimates, but you should easily get the point. You could likely do it for $450-500 easily with GDDR5x. Would you buy the same card with 12GB GDDR5x for $500 or would you rather have 16GB HBM2@$700 to claim "I use HBM2..haha, neener neener"??

    For the love of god AMD, stop using HBM in anything but PRO cards/server cards as it is asinine!
    https://www.anandtech.com/show/9883/gddr5x-standard-jedec-new-gpu-memory-14-gbps
    4GB HBM 14w, vs. 20w for 8GB GDDR5x (hbm2 isn't that much better). Watts don't even help the story as GDDR5x appears to be about 1/2 GDDR5 watts. Stop paying for stuff you don't need AMD. HBM (any rev) is useless for gamers today (maybe next year).
    https://www.fudzilla.com/news/graphics/43731-vega-hbm-2-8gb-memory-stack-cost-160
    16GB would be $320 by these measures. Surely dropped some by now, but even at $200 this is stupid. May2017 pricing mind you. I simply can't understand why AMD keeps taking this route, when not needed at all. I tried, couldn't swallow this no matter how I looked at it. I would not pay $200+ to say "hbm2" while missing features. AMD could have done much better with LESS so to speak. It would be different if it was 25% FASTER than 2080 at least in OLD games, but that isn't the case. It's the same, and later this year and on you get killed by RTX features that WILL be used, on PC and next gen consoles. VRS will be used also by many devs as it's a great way to make up for weaker gpu resources (consoles/handhelds will find it useful), as it can add a lot of perf (7:40 VRS talk starts - 14:30-14:50 or so vid below for 2060 VRS vs. 1060 where 2060 wins by 92% WOW).
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mxjV3cuB-c
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edYiCE0b8-c
    People seem to have missed this feature completely. But I guess that discussion (and RT+DLSS) will come for xmas 2019 games. Until then we'll just have people adding these 3 features via patches with gains all over the map for now. AMD needs to add this stuff.

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    Re: Nvidia CEO says AMD Radeon VII "performance is lousy"

    Quote Originally Posted by ohmaheid View Post
    A supposedly responsible CEO of a major company coming out with statements like that is pretty incredible. I could see Trump uttering something like that - but he's a special case.
    Nvidia are clearly worried...given their own 'underwhelming' new hardware, and share price collapse.
    But it is has been obvious for the past few years that Nvidia have the most efficient architecture, and the new Radeon 7 doesn't change that despite the near miraculous revival by AMD over the past 2 years considering the comparative size of budgets available to AMD, Intel and Nvidia for R&D. As long as AMD can challenge Nvidia in the most popular price brackets for comparable performance - they will be OK.
    For now.
    Personally, i think the price of Radeon 7 will be reduced to make it a preferential choice over the 2080.
    This is BS. I don't need someone who "sounds presidential", I need presidential RESULTS. I don't care how you say it, your job is to make me rich & safe. PERIOD. Same story with Jen. I don't care what he says, I care that the product WINS and it does.

    AMD will not be fine with just a challenge and no income (NET). You need INCOME to produce more R&D. PERIOD. It doesn't matter how nice AMD sounds, it only matters how they perform. Same for every company. Same for any president. Everyone whines about how trump talks, instead of what is important, which is how he performs. By that metric, he will probably best any president in the last 100yrs. IE, obama no 3% growth for 8yrs. Trump already there. ISIS would be a "multi-generational fight" for Obama, for Trump <2yrs...LOL. 8mil added to foodstamps for Obama, 5mil off for trump in only 2yrs. Obama worst unemployement for blacks/hispanics/women in ages, Trump best in 40+ yrs for all (best ever for blacks, maybe hispanics too now...LOL). Manufacturing GONE under Obama, Trump bringing it all back (was 4 steel plants vs. 16 years ago, now up to 10 again in 2yrs!). I could go on, but you should get the point, RESULTS MATTER far more than "I didn't like how he said it"...blah, meh, buzz off. How's May doing (she's brexit-ing her self right out of a job!)? Ah stepping down soon...Merkel, same story, frenchy in trouble too...Saying the right crap, and DOING the right stuff totally different Globalists suck you dry. Yellow jackets rising

    You should be thankful for the share drop, now you get it 1/2 off. It will be $300 again in the next 2yrs as Auto kicks into high gear. Jen plays a LONG game, he's not a day trader. He's a buffet. He doesn't care, he's went from 300mil 2007 to 3.2B a decade later. I think he's LAUGHING, not crying...LOL. He'll just buy back more shares at these levels just like a buffet would, just like MU is doing etc. He'd make more buying the company back at current interest levels. NV is not worried, as they can bleed you all the way into the next gpu cycle and not care. You don't seem to understand that while their stock dropped, they still make 10x AMD in NET INCOME. That is what matters here, not the share price. INCOME makes R&D, not "she said it right" crap. INCOME matters, not words. A "supposedly responsible ceo" make his/her company MONEY. Oh wait, Jen has done that massively, thus earning his wage. In ~2007-2008 they made ~750-850mil a year, now 4B a year. AMD lost 9B+ in the LIFE of their company and 1.2B of that in the last 4yrs. IE, 400mil loss for 2014/2015/2016 with <50mil 2017, and looks like ~350-400mil for 2018. Dissing Jen for a comment is missing the point of leadership. NV has massively GROWN their company, assets, income, revenue, R&D, margins, employees etc. AMD has been killed in the last decade by all measures and the company has shrunk (employees dropped 30% too). You need to read Q reports, instead of making ignorant comments.

    "near miraculous revival by AMD over the past 2 years considering the comparative size of budgets available to AMD, Intel and Nvidia for R&D"

    Uh, that's not how you measure perf in the REAL world. Nobody cares you managed what you had OK, what matters is how you actually did vs. the competition's bottom line. Nobody cares that a superbowl team did "pretty well considering the other side is AWESOME". They look at the score board, and say, "uh, the other guy WON" and then you don't get the rings/accolades etc Nobody says "they did pretty good for their budget", you call it a B movie and move along right? See NV/AMD Q reports for the masses and their VERDICT on your opinion 80% of the NET income is made above $300 (used to be $250).


    IF you're not winning the high end you get AMD income, vs. NV/Intel. No matter what you say, or how you say it, that is the truth in the end. Nobody cares if you fumble 3 times in the game if you also WIN that game...ROFL. The owners/fans care about winning (gamers too). Tons of you whine about NV prices, but buy it anyway as the market share shows. You buy what wins, unless you just don't care about your wallet. How many of you actually cut off your nose to spite your face (not many diehards)? I might wince at a price, but I'll buy it anyway if it wins. No mercy, no loyalty to anyone or any brand and 90% of the whiners, do the same thing...LOL. You buy discounted products only if you can't afford the real deal. ME TOO I just explained why they can't really lower the price, the HBM2 is too expensive to pull much on that front. The age of political correctness needs to DIE a quick death as it's useless and has no effect on results. Trumps words have no effect on my 401k making killer gains, everyone getting jobs, etc. Same story for Jen looking at his Q reports year after year. Results matter, NOT talk or how you said it. I'd much rather have a person who says everything politically incorrect but gets great results, as opposed to a politically correct retard with results that suck. Trump is brilliant in starting discussions (lobs a bomb the media blows up), and then getting results. Discussions nobody else would even start as they are too afraid to say anything even remotely offensive. If you THINK, you'll risk offending people, period.

    You can form lines and walk into death all you want (I've got Honor dang it! HAHA! You can't shoot me, I've got a pretty hat), I'll hide in the trees and shoot your leaders while winning a war (um, you're dead...). Get it? Honor means nothing in business, just ask Bill Gates, Facebook, Google, Amazon etc. They'll run over anyone, even hurting customers to control things (kill great tech even, just to push agenda, whatever it is). They get the war message I just gave you, ALL of them do. Screw your pretty hat and lines, your company is dead. That is all that matters in the end to them. It will be interesting to see how the Bezos divorce affects Amazon going forward as money is the only thing that affects these people and their decisions and he's about to lose 1/2 his money They'll let your country get run over with illegals, just to make another dollar on labor...LOL. Nafta, climate crap, Iran deal, Nato not paying up, etc etc. Trump fixing it all because he doesn't care about the $ at this point and can't be bought (he's down billions since becoming president as they try to take him down daily). I wish we could pass a law that says you can't run for office before running a business. See AOC's ignorance on all things. You owe me because you're better at life than me...Uh, no, I don't. Earn it.

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    Re: Nvidia CEO says AMD Radeon VII "performance is lousy"

    Quote Originally Posted by philehidiot View Post
    Remember that some years ago AMD pinpointed on a graph where the sales / profits were and publicised that they were going to aim for three segments. This basically covered the mid range, higher mid range and then the bottom of the upper tier. There were no real profits to be made at the bleeding edge due to R&D costs, high price and low volume. This can be seen in the range they have out. It's not necessarily that they can not compete at the ultra high end. I'm sure given enough time and money they could. They just don't see the volume being there to justify it and given their R&D budget is small in comparison to Nvidia they're happy to concede the segment. There are obvious downsides here but I'm sure they've considered and decided to accept them.
    Exactly. For all the people bemoaning the fact AMD aren't launching a halo product (which would be terrible value, as they always are), its hard to deny that AMD cards are already a good choice at most price points. Vega has its issues but still isn't a bad card at the current prices.

    I wouldn't make a statement on how good the Radeon VII is until there's more detailed benchmarks and real world pricing out. The head of nVidia doing it is absurd.

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    Re: Nvidia CEO says AMD Radeon VII "performance is lousy"

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    It's less than a decade since the 5870 was released, and it had over 6 months as the undisputed fastest GPU in world before NVidia finally got he buggy, hot running, power hungry GTX 480 out of the door. I'd hope people who were twenty back then haven't forgotten already...
    Anyone remember the Geforce FX 5800 Ultra? Otherwise know as the 'Dustbuster', because of the huge, high-speed fan strapped to the cooler needed to make the GPU even vaguely usable, it ran so hot. At that time, the then ATI 9700 GPU wiped the floor with it too. So Jensen really shouldn't make such remarks...history has a knack of repeating itself

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    Re: Nvidia CEO says AMD Radeon VII "performance is lousy"

    Way too early for me to be looking at GPUs with ray tracing, anyway. I'm gonna wait about 3 years to see if it actually becomes an option in any games I play.

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    Re: Nvidia CEO says AMD Radeon VII "performance is lousy"

    Quote Originally Posted by nobodyspecial View Post
    I don't care about his attitude or how he says it. Unlike AOC, I care more about facts and data than being morally correct...LOL. Morally correct people and the whole PC crowd can kiss my butt. I have one question: Did you win? I'll buy the winner, not the morally correct loser That said, I'm definitely interested in their cpus (and I own AMD stock...LOL), and can't wait for 64 core server profits to roll in next year. That is why I own the stock, not gpus they keep killing NET INCOME on with HBM. They've screwed 3 flagships in a row now. Fire anyone choosing wads of HBM vs. GDDR5x or GDDR6. Nobody needs 1TB/s bandwidth on a 1440p or less card (AMD demoed on 1080p 100fps for Forza...so even they know it isn't a 4k card!). What a waste of net income and cheaper prices. This card could sell at $550 with 12GB GDDR5x vs. 2080 or heck, maybe even GDDR6 works here at $600 or something. But with 16GB expensive HBM, no features, higher watts, how do you sell it? How do you lower prices without losing margins massively? $175 (at 8GB, so ~$250 or more at 16GB?) or so in memory and how much has it dropped since mid 2017 with not much else using HBM2? That is a far cry from 12GB of GDDR5x for probably $60 today from MU. AMD basically hopes to get margin back on game bundles. I'd rather sell good margin hardware than count on gaming sale bundles to pick up the slack for a potentially "negative margin" product as they note below.
    Interesting take on things, AMD has outperformed Nvidia in terms of growth in the last 12 months, increased their EPS, reduced operating costs. On the flipside Nvidia is nowhere near the same growth rate as AMD and increased operating costs.

    With regards to the usage of HBM2 in their higher end cards, to simply suggest that it could be swapped out for GDDR5 / GDDR5x / GDDR6 ignores that you would have to redesign the chip to do so. If you're not sure or have missed the point in the use of HBM / HBM2, then perhaps read this https://www.anandtech.com/show/11002...cture-teaser/3. It may give you a little more insight into what you're suggesting and talking about.

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    Re: Nvidia CEO says AMD Radeon VII "performance is lousy"

    Quote Originally Posted by nobodyspecial View Post
    Jen's correct. IF you hitting 2080 perf, you'll lose the second everyone goes RT+DLSS
    So AMD should be absolutely fine.

    Nobody needs 1TB/s bandwidth on a 1440p or less card (AMD demoed on 1080p 100fps for Forza...so even they know it isn't a 4k card!).
    That was part of their CPU benchmarking wasn't it?


    Stop paying for stuff you don't need AMD.
    *cough*tensor cores*cough*

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    Re: Nvidia CEO says AMD Radeon VII "performance is lousy"

    Pretty appauling conduct from Nvidia's CEO here really, not sure anyone can really defend it. Very trump like...

    I stand by everything I said in the other thread - this AMD card *at the moment* looks terrible value compared to the already overpriced RTX2080, but to be 100% certain..we need to see 3rd party benchmarks. The comparisons AMD have released are pretty worthless on their own (as worthless as Nvidia's were in their run up to launch)and they don't quite match up to general 3rd patty benchmarks of an RTX2080

    Also interesting that they used an Intel chip in their test rig.

    We will see, but unless this new card shows performance gains in general against the RTX2080 across the board, it's still looking like a complete dead duck that isn't worth purchasing.

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    Re: Nvidia CEO says AMD Radeon VII "performance is lousy"

    Quote Originally Posted by Spud1 View Post
    Also interesting that they used an Intel chip in their test rig.
    I think they did this because it is well known Intel chips right now get the best performance in gaming and they couldn't use a Ryzen 3k series because that would tip off too many people to performance and using a Ryzen 2k may hobble GPU performance and not be a fair test to both Nvidia and AMD GPUs.

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    Re: Nvidia CEO says AMD Radeon VII "performance is lousy"

    Quote Originally Posted by Spud1 View Post
    We will see, but unless this new card shows performance gains in general against the RTX2080 across the board, it's still looking like a complete dead duck that isn't worth purchasing.
    So if it mostly matches a 2080 and then they drop the price to £500... is it a dead duck then? No bad cards, just bad prices. I think releasing it at the same price as a 2080 is a psychological thing and we'll see steep reductions very quickly.

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    Re: Nvidia CEO says AMD Radeon VII "performance is lousy"

    Just as a thought, has anyone consider this may have been a tactical move? AMD release a couple of benchmarks but don't want to release everything just yet. Then Nvidia need to know what they're dealing with "do we need to prep a tastier 2080 or drop the price early?" so they make a set of silly comments like this to encourage AMD to refute them by releasing more benchmark data?

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    Re: Nvidia CEO says AMD Radeon VII "performance is lousy"

    Quote Originally Posted by philehidiot View Post
    Just as a thought, has anyone consider this may have been a tactical move? AMD release a couple of benchmarks but don't want to release everything just yet. Then Nvidia need to know what they're dealing with "do we need to prep a tastier 2080 or drop the price early?" so they make a set of silly comments like this to encourage AMD to refute them by releasing more benchmark data?
    I doubt AMD would be that naive. I think the CEO comments were intended for the ears of his own fans, much like a certain US presidents tweets.

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    Re: Nvidia CEO says AMD Radeon VII "performance is lousy"

    Quote Originally Posted by philehidiot View Post
    So if it mostly matches a 2080 and then they drop the price to £500... is it a dead duck then? No bad cards, just bad prices. I think releasing it at the same price as a 2080 is a psychological thing and we'll see steep reductions very quickly.
    At that price it's a worthy contender and makes sense as a purchase if you are not interested in raytracing benchmarks depending of course...

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