GloFo patent suit against TSMC threatens Nvidia sales ban

[HEXUS]

TSMC has "violated 16 chip production patents" and customer products are in the firing line.

Read more.

[Tabbykatze]

I wonder if Nvidia saw this coming/knew about it and that's why the next gen will be on Samsung EUV?

[HollyDOL]

I have no idea whether TSMC done anything of what they are being accused from, but putting that into one sentence with 'we protect European and US investments' sounds like major case of blackmailing the court (we win or you'll see no money from us!) and patent trolling... While on other hand GF given late announcements (give up on 7nm etc.) sounds a bit like sinking ship (at least in regards to being first league foundry). This will be interesting yet...

[Ttaskmaster]

US and Germany only, but TSMC are fine to continue infringing this patent everywhere else, though?
Weird...

[Tabbykatze]

US and Germany only, but TSMC are fine to continue infringing this patent everywhere else, though?
Weird...

It's their primary centers of operation IIRC?

[philehidiot]

US and Germany only, but TSMC are fine to continue infringing this patent everywhere else, though?
Weird...

I suspect they're dealing with the biggest markets they can with minimal effort. You don't want to be taking legal action in multiple different areas at once. German rulings may well end up covering the entire EU if it's in the right court (and they may be able to pass the judgement up to the EU central courts for consideration of widespread adoption) and US rulings will cover the entire US. Two court proceedings to cover two massive markets accounting for a huge percentage of sales. Then once that's done you probably have had enough impact to force them to stop infringing everywhere else. The best tactical play is nearly always highest gain for lowest cost and I expect that's what they're doing?

[Ttaskmaster]

sounds like major case of blackmailing the court (we win or you'll see no money from us!) and patent trolling...

Well I did wonder why it's taken so long for GF to pipe up and complain about this infringement... Most companies kick off at least a C&D within minutes of discovering infringements.

[Gunge]

With the caveat this is not my technical area and I have no real detail on the underlying issues, some comments which may be vaguely useful/interesting...

sounds like major case of blackmailing the court (we win or you'll see no money from us!) and patent trolling

Juries can be influenced by such things (and in the US first instance IP trials often have juries - so a sympathy game is important), but it shouldn't impact the way courts themselves act.

Trolling is generally taken to refer to actions by non-practising entities, where the objective is simply to throw enough mud in the hope that some sticks. Both GF and TSMC are substantial practising entities and are locking horns as businesses do sometimes.

It's their primary centers of operation IIRC?

Exactly. Take action in manufacturing centres and there is no need to take action anywhere else. Outside the manufacturing territories the infringing parties will likely be the clients - i.e. your potential customers - a fine line needs to be taken to show strength but not push too far.

I suspect they're dealing with the biggest markets they can with minimal effort. You don't want to be taking legal action in multiple different areas at once. German rulings may well end up covering the entire EU if it's in the right court (and they may be able to pass the judgement up to the EU central courts for consideration of widespread adoption) and US rulings will cover the entire US. Two court proceedings to cover two massive markets accounting for a huge percentage of sales. Then once that's done you probably have had enough impact to force them to stop infringing everywhere else. The best tactical play is nearly always highest gain for lowest cost and I expect that's what they're doing?

Infringement is not harmonised law in Europe, so it is common to take action in multiple territories at once - outcomes can justifiably vary (with also a degree of randomness thrown in for good measure). Big players need not be intimidated by a negative outcome in one territory, depending on the fact pattern, it may or may not be predictive for other territories. If you are on the losing side in one territory, you could settle from a weak position or you could try and get a few wins and settle from a more equal footing.

There are limited circumstances where decisions can have multi-territorial impact, but they are not generally applicable. This is a key motivation behind the proposed unitary patent system.

Anyway, it depends on the facts and I don't know the facts.

Well I did wonder why it's taken so long for GF to pipe up and complain about this infringement... Most companies kick off at least a C&D within minutes of discovering infringements.

It may take time to confirm infringement, particularly if it is process based protection. Once you know there is infringement there may be good faith negotiations regarding a settlement for a significant amount of time - if talks break down you then get enforcement to help 'motivate' things.

[keithwalton]

Do they mention AMD at all ?

Surely they are prime suspect in IP transfer being a major GloFo customer (not to mention previous owner of the US/DE fabs in question) that now use TSMC for Zen2 ...

Having dug a little deeper they seem to be going after apple more than nvidia (in germany at least)

they only go after nvidia 3 times, the itc#2 suit and 2 in texas, but one is on the 16nm process so wont really hurt them anymore, and no mention of AMD at all, funny that one as they may well end up getting caught in the crossfire .. no navi or Zen2 for the USA

[Corky34]

.. no navi or Zen2 for the USA

That cats already out of the bag and i imagine, if it ever gets to the trial stage, that it will drag on for so long we'll probably be on Zen 10 or something by the time it was settled.

[lumireleon]

who has plans to buy GFLO was it Samsung?

[Goodman2576]

continuation of US China tax wars... soon all China made non-first necessity and high value merchandise will be banned from US and US-friendly countries.

[Korrorra]

When I read about this. This whole story seemed like Samsung was the one pushing Glofo to do this. To trip up TSMC since they are both competing against each other. Making Glofo the fall guy. While Samsung can deny everything.

[Mr_Jon]

Sounds like a new line from Soul Glo

[philehidiot]

With the caveat this is not my technical area and I have no real detail on the underlying issues, some comments which may be vaguely useful/interesting...



Juries can be influenced by such things (and in the US first instance IP trials often have juries - so a sympathy game is important), but it shouldn't impact the way courts themselves act.

Trolling is generally taken to refer to actions by non-practising entities, where the objective is simply to throw enough mud in the hope that some sticks. Both GF and TSMC are substantial practising entities and are locking horns as businesses do sometimes.



Exactly. Take action in manufacturing centres and there is no need to take action anywhere else. Outside the manufacturing territories the infringing parties will likely be the clients - i.e. your potential customers - a fine line needs to be taken to show strength but not push too far.



Infringement is not harmonised law in Europe, so it is common to take action in multiple territories at once - outcomes can justifiably vary (with also a degree of randomness thrown in for good measure). Big players need not be intimidated by a negative outcome in one territory, depending on the fact pattern, it may or may not be predictive for other territories. If you are on the losing side in one territory, you could settle from a weak position or you could try and get a few wins and settle from a more equal footing.

There are limited circumstances where decisions can have multi-territorial impact, but they are not generally applicable. This is a key motivation behind the proposed unitary patent system.

Anyway, it depends on the facts and I don't know the facts.



It may take time to confirm infringement, particularly if it is process based protection. Once you know there is infringement there may be good faith negotiations regarding a settlement for a significant amount of time - if talks break down you then get enforcement to help 'motivate' things.

You're wrong.

Just kidding. My post was a suggestion, hence the "?" everywhere, so it's good to hear from someone who obviously knows the process. Is there a way they could have a judgement escalated to the EU courts for consideration of EU wide adoption?

EDIT: And don't worry about not having "the facts". This is the internet. Where the men are men, the girls are men and the boys are FBI agents. Facts and truth are very much relative here.