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Thread: Is the next gen Xbox GPU more powerful than the RX 5700 XT?

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    Is the next gen Xbox GPU more powerful than the RX 5700 XT?

    Data leaked onto GitHub indicates the next Xbox may come packing a custom 56CU Navi GPU.
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    Re: Is the next gen Xbox GPU more powerful than the RX 5700 XT?

    If it is I might be sorely interested in getting one...

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    Re: Is the next gen Xbox GPU more powerful than the RX 5700 XT?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tabbykatze View Post
    If it is I might be sorely interested in getting one...
    Accept the inevitable, Mr Anderson....
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    Re: Is the next gen Xbox GPU more powerful than the RX 5700 XT?

    $600/$700 series X won't seem /too/ unreasonable next to a $300 series S.

    I could even see them launching at $800 and $400 (X and S respectively), though I doubt that'd be good for sales

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    Re: Is the next gen Xbox GPU more powerful than the RX 5700 XT?

    Sounds like the iphone X of consoles. Not a bad idea, I can see a space in the market for a premium console.

    It'll be a serious die, definitely bigger than radeon 7 (unless it's a bunch of chiplets, which would be even more interesting)

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    Re: Is the next gen Xbox GPU more powerful than the RX 5700 XT?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xlucine View Post
    Sounds like the iphone X of consoles. Not a bad idea, I can see a space in the market for a premium console.
    Have you been living under a rock? There already is a premium console market, and you confused the iphone 11pro with the X lmao

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    Re: Is the next gen Xbox GPU more powerful than the RX 5700 XT?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xlucine View Post
    It'll be a serious die, definitely bigger than radeon 7 (unless it's a bunch of chiplets, which would be even more interesting)
    I don't see why they wouldn't use a chiplet arrangement, given the technology is available. How much they divide it up would be interesting, but at a minimum I wouldn't be surprised to see a CPU chiplet connected to a combined GPU+memory controller die. The reason I suggest that rather than a separate memory controller die like we see with Ryzen is the difference in memory bandwidth for the GPU, but I don't know which way would make the most sense for this scenario. After all the Zen2 chiplets are already available off-the-shelf, unless they wanted to modify them further but that would likely add to the cost considerably.

    As you say though, if monolithic it could be a huge die which wouldn't help cost-wise.

    As for splitting up the GPU into chiplets, that would be considerably more complex, and unless the console manufacturers have played a part in developing the tech, it's something we haven't seen previously (a multi-die GPU is very different to a multi-GPU setup). Having said that, the 5700XT is 'only' 251mm2 so there's still room there to add a bit and not send the cost through the roof. I think there's definitely some motivation to leave the CPU on its own chiplet though, and it's something they've almost certainly given strong consideration to, to the point I think it would be more interesting if they decided against going with that.

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    Re: Is the next gen Xbox GPU more powerful than the RX 5700 XT?

    Quote Originally Posted by Usernamist View Post
    Have you been living under a rock? There already is a premium console market, and you confused the iphone 11pro with the X lmao
    There are two tiers, but there's a large difference between a console equalling a 480 (launched when that was a modern GPU) & one with performance comparable to £700 GPUs (i.e. > 2080 S territory, linearly scaling a 5700XT by the CU count). This'll set a new high point in console prices (i.e. >$1000 easily), same way the iphone X did with it's price tag (and once normalised by the iphone X, everyone stopped making a fuss about all the other phones with comparable prices as being silly money). The 11pro is just a refreshed iphone X, why would you think it's defining a new market segment?

    Quote Originally Posted by watercooled View Post
    I don't see why they wouldn't use a chiplet arrangement, given the technology is available. How much they divide it up would be interesting, but at a minimum I wouldn't be surprised to see a CPU chiplet connected to a combined GPU+memory controller die. The reason I suggest that rather than a separate memory controller die like we see with Ryzen is the difference in memory bandwidth for the GPU, but I don't know which way would make the most sense for this scenario. After all the Zen2 chiplets are already available off-the-shelf, unless they wanted to modify them further but that would likely add to the cost considerably.

    As you say though, if monolithic it could be a huge die which wouldn't help cost-wise.

    As for splitting up the GPU into chiplets, that would be considerably more complex, and unless the console manufacturers have played a part in developing the tech, it's something we haven't seen previously (a multi-die GPU is very different to a multi-GPU setup). Having said that, the 5700XT is 'only' 251mm2 so there's still room there to add a bit and not send the cost through the roof. I think there's definitely some motivation to leave the CPU on its own chiplet though, and it's something they've almost certainly given strong consideration to, to the point I think it would be more interesting if they decided against going with that.
    A zen2 die talking to a GPU is indeed likely, but it's also boring I'm hoping for 4 14-CU GPU chiplets, the CPU chiplet, and a separate RT chiplet (or two) for maximum interconnection! 14 CUs would be ~zen2 chiplet sized, and we know the foundries can pump those out cheaply

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    Re: Is the next gen Xbox GPU more powerful than the RX 5700 XT?

    £700 GPU performance does not mean that would cost £700 in a console. Not to mention the current £700 Nvidia GPUs are only that price because of a lack of competition and is the wrong way to go about estimating wholesale pricing for this theoretical semi-custom Navi die. Generally, very little profit is made on console hardware, in fact they're often sold pretty much at cost or for a loss initially, so again, not comparable. Unless it's a second console released by Microsoft and they still have one available for a reasonable price to target their existing market, they'd get demolished by the competition. Outrageously expensive phones again cannot be directly compared because the cost of often amortised by way of a 24+ month contract - relatively few people will pay >£1000 up-front for a phone (and numerous reports seem to indicate that people are keeping phones for longer now).

    I don't think people stopped making a fuss about the cost of phones either, the iPhone X sold terribly from what I remember, and even Apple weren't brazen enough to release that as the only option. The console market has proven time and time again that customers will switch platforms if cost/release date/performance encourage it. Don't forget the PS3 was more expensive and later than the Xbox 360. Likewise the PS4 was both cheaper and higher performance than the Xbox One, and very few people wanted Kinect forced upon them. Both times, the cheaper console sold substantially better. I very much doubt Microsoft would ignore history and try to force an outrageously expensive console onto their customers - they'd just flat-out lose to the competition again, but probably worse than ever before if it was >$1k as you suggest, something I personally very much doubt. Even with speculated hardware I don't see it being close to that figure.

    Even the $499 launch price of the Xbox One had to drop in response to competition (being the generally slower console didn't help either), to more than double that for the base model would be ludicrous. It wouldn't surprise me if it's more expensive than $499 if they can justify it and if competition allows it, but again I think it would be pushing it and very risky if they don't have a cheaper base model to sell alongside it.

    That ~$1000 figure is also pushing way too far into decent PC territory, which would strip the console of one of its key advantages, plus you have to remember many previously-exclusive Xbox games are now also available on PC anyway.

    The problem with GPU chiplets isn't the size, it's the interconnection. It's something we'll likely see in the future at some point, I'm just not sure whether we'll see it on these consoles - the speculated core counts don't really demand it, and it would take considerable engineering work to implement it into Navi. Like any silicon engineering decisions, there would have to be a good reason to do it. No doubt, there's already a lot of extra work been put into the semi-custom part given they're expected to have hardware ray-tracing capability and MS/Sony historically make their own modifications regardless, but making it into chiplets would not be a trivial task. Again I've no doubt it's been considered, it's personally I think it's more likely than not we'll see the GPU on a single die this time. Could be wrong though!

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    Re: Is the next gen Xbox GPU more powerful than the RX 5700 XT?

    As 4K are pretty much the norm in the TV market now, any new console better damn well be able to play at 4K, so unless you dial back on the eye candy to maintain playable FPS, then YES the consoles better have 5700XT or better performance.
    And i do think they have to dial back on the eye candy to maintain playable FPS and have a price on the unit where it will sell without too many questions asked.

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    Re: Is the next gen Xbox GPU more powerful than the RX 5700 XT?

    Resolution isn't everything. It's quite possible to have a game rendering at 4k and looking pretty poor compared to a more polished game at 1080p. No doubt they'll tick the box for 4k for those who just want to see the marketing hype. It's like the amount of '4k' streamed content where bitrate is so low it would probably be better utilised by 1080p in real-world quality. Proper 1080p Blu Rays are still vastly superior to some 4k streams I've personally seen.

    Just to be clear I'm not trying to overly generalise there, just giving some extreme examples. There are some good 4k streams too obviously, and new codecs can help to a point, but you can't give a 4k stream something like 4000kb/s to work with and realistically expect anything close to BD quality.

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    Re: Is the next gen Xbox GPU more powerful than the RX 5700 XT?

    I for one don't think MS (or Sony for that matter) will set RRP using a cost+ model (costs plus a mark up). I wouldn't be surprised if MS margin on hardware sales for Xbox One Series X will be wafer thin or nonexistent, they need to push units and MUST have learnt from the Xbox One's poor launch - over priced and under-powered, it would be odd if they only addressed one of the two issues.

    Given the amount of brand loyalty out there, in order to attract PS4 owners, of whom there are many, MS needs to compete on price and specs, selling a console that's more powerful for more isn't enough, it needs to sell a more powerful console for the same or less than Sony. I suppose some of it will be down to how much of a bulk discount either/both MS and Sony get from AMD but I'd be astonished if MS didn't come out equal on cost, better on performance than Sony.

    What do I know though, I got my Playstation AFTER my Sega Saturn

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    Re: Is the next gen Xbox GPU more powerful than the RX 5700 XT?

    Yeah, like you say profit margins for console hardware are often very small or non-existent.

    Trying to come up with a price by comparing to retail pricing of PC hardware carrying large profit margins is pointless as that is not what Sony/MS will be paying for their semi-custom orders, not even close.

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    Re: Is the next gen Xbox GPU more powerful than the RX 5700 XT?

    Global Warming? Yes Please.

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    Re: Is the next gen Xbox GPU more powerful than the RX 5700 XT?

    If anything I'd expect (hope) the next consoles improve their power management again compared to the last generation. If the rumoured specs are true we may see peak power increasing, but given modern consoles aren't only used for games, decent power management and idle states should help overall consumption a great deal.

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    Re: Is the next gen Xbox GPU more powerful than the RX 5700 XT?

    I think you are all missing the big picture with pricing. With Game pass Microsoft have started selling the console (One X) with game pass for a set monthly price (just like a phone). I suspect that is the plan for the next gen - People don't tend to take into account the total price if its say an affordable £30 a month. Just consider the following scenario - PS5 for £500 with one game or a Xbox One Series X with 100s of games for £40 a month?
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