Apple is resisting EU pressure for phone charger standard

[Iota]

I think the EU needs to butt out.

Agreed.

The people who are on Apples side, ask yourself. Who benefits from the EU putting this law in?

Is it the EU, is it a specific (or small group of manufacturers) or a specific business?

It's none of those, it's only the consumer.

Is it though? This seems an ill-thought out policy direction by the EU (or indeed any specific regional economy that wants to implement this). What happens if Apple comes up with a better standard than the one the EU dictates is the best? One that uses less power to make, has a smaller environmental impact to make, is an standard any company could use for a nominal fee, creates less e-waste, is cheaper than the current standard being dictated?

I'm not saying it would happen, but what happens in that instance? Apple can't implement it because of some archaic EU directive? They've been shown to be pretty wasteful in the past, anyone remember this one? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commis...C)_No._2257/94 - what happens to the bananas that aren't straight enough? ....

[mrochester]

Agreed.



Is it though? This seems an ill-thought out policy direction by the EU (or indeed any specific regional economy that wants to implement this). What happens if Apple comes up with a better standard than the one the EU dictates is the best? One that uses less power to make, has a smaller environmental impact to make, is an standard any company could use for a nominal fee, creates less e-waste, is cheaper than the current standard being dictated?

I'm not saying it would happen, but what happens in that instance? Apple can't implement it because of some archaic EU directive? They've been shown to be pretty wasteful in the past, anyone remember this one? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commis...C)_No._2257/94 - what happens to the bananas that aren't straight enough? ....

USB-C is already a worse connector than lightning and it’s newer!

[DanceswithUnix]

Maybe its just me but that sounds a whole lot better than a charger that simply doesn't fit.

Whilst true, when the EU started on this path phones were adopting mini USB and since I have had phones with micro USB and will probably end up next with one with USB-C. Had the EU mandated mini USB then they would have stagnated the industry. So yeah, I have been enjoying the benefits of USB cabling, and I already was before the EU started putting their oar in so I think that was where the industry was heading anyway.

I haven't seen the wording on this. If it is of the form "Any USB connector standard must be adopted within 5 years of ratification" then I'm in favour. After nonsense like the vacuum cleaner power limits and web cookie permissions I don't trust them to get this right.

[philehidiot]

Nice deflection.

You mean a valid comparison which you're trying to dismiss rather than answer.

But that's fine.

And as for "targeting" - it doesn't matter who they target, it matters who they hit. Another deflection would be "I didn't aim that machine gun at those people so I'm not responsible for the bullets hitting them". Anyone who takes an action is responsible for foreseeable consequences and it is their responsibility to ensure things are fair. I despise Apple, but this isn't fair and it just forces them to give up something which gives them mobility in the marketplace.

There are other reasons for Apple using a different power adaptor - an example being a Macbook Air. A bog-standard off the shelf adaptor has ripple effects which have a habit of frying a few resistors on the mainboard. This is an expensive repair. Apple's products are designed with a bespoke power supply in mind. Whilst I don't think they'll necessarily feel the pinch too much of the cost of compliance, I know people who have lost jobs due to the EU's regulatory demands. We see a USB adaptor Vs a lightning adaptor. Apple probably sees a significant redesign.

This is not a health issue like the sugar tax where demonstrable benefits have been shown from research and past experience in taxation. This is competing standards and competition is what drives innovation. I could say.... nice deflection. But I won't.

What right does the EU, as a supranational body, have to say one interface wins outright? What about other companies not shown here who are working on different interfaces? Should they just go under because technocrats said so? One standard is popular, but that doesn't mean politicians have the right to demand it is the only standard which can be used.

If they want to reduce the dumping of waste chargers, there are other ways to go about this. USB does not have any right to be crowned the sole interface based on the decision of a government. It's a gradual erosion of the free market in line with socialist ideals. It also means USB has no need to advance or compete because all competition is gone. What happened to Intel when it had no competition? It stagnated and PC sales declined badly. Only now are they picking up again.

But I suppose that's a deflection, too.

I want Betamax but the government says I must have VHS. Can't have wasted video recorders.

Deflection, sorry.

I shall await the government's decision as to what sandwiches I may buy. Only the most popular, I assume. The less popular ones get thrown if they don't sell and we can't have that.

Obviously, we are all the same and we must all have and use the same. Now, you tell me what minority you're in which is going to suffer when they declare you must use the same thing as everyone else.... Otherwise we are being wasteful and those who don't want the same as everyone else.... they can suck it up and stop whining. This kind of stuff ALWAYS creeps and creeps. It never goes backwards, only becomes ever more encompassing.

Nice deflection?

I thought so.

[Saracen999]

Well, I'm rather with the EU on this one. No seriously, I am.

Governments do have the right to decude on standards, and legjslate to implement them, if they have what they consider to be good enough reason.

Of course, Apple also have the right the release in phones in an "EU model" spec, and an "everywhere else" spec, and buyers have the right to buy whichever they want ... though EU consumers would no doubt have to buy outside the EU. Thus is hardly difficult, or novel, in today's world.

But I ought to add, I am not exactly personally invested with way. I currently only have a smartphone at all because a friend gave me his old one wnen he upgraded and I don't use that much. The chances of me buying an iPhone, or any other high-end model, are zero. So I don't actually give a hoot either way. But the EU do have the right to set standards for products exported into the EU. Don't like that, Apple? Don't sell to the EU. Not keen on that? Thought not.

Oh, and it's not as if the US government don't set standards that have to be met by anyone exporting to the US, like FCC standards for electrical and tech gear.

It's a function (and right) of governments to do this kind of thing .... whether foreign manufacturers like it or not.



EDIT - Because of my usage, I'm not expressing an opinion on Lightning, USB-anything, or whether universal or proporietry standards are better. Merely that the EU have the right to decide that for EU states.

[Tabbykatze]

The couple of arguments against my post have been centeres on "what if there is better by Apple?"

Yes, they could make a better connector! Then what they can do is they can submit it to USB-IF and we can all benefit from it rather than them clutching onto tiny straws.

Phil seems to think that this is a precursor to mind control and restrictions on what they believe you should be doing. Well, his user name already contains the word I'd use to describe him.

What this really boils down to is that people are upset that the "hyper contentious" EU are trying to fix a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place. The only reason why it exists is because Apple think they're better and because their bigger they can just ignore it. Which is pretty much what happened when the EU got the whole micro usb thing agreed (which was an amicable shaking of hands not a direct law iirc). The economy moved to USB-C without a legislation update, its just Apple being Apple now, slow to move and slow to adopt.

Lastly, as I said, I feel this law should be tied into the USB-IF, when they ratify or build a new standard it should update with them.

[DanceswithUnix]

Which is pretty much what happened when the EU got the whole micro usb thing agreed (which was an amicable shaking of hands not a direct law iirc).

But nothing happened.

At that time I already had a cheap (£40 from Sainsbury's I think) phone that had a micro USB socket. This is because even as a feature phone it could play MP3 files and hence needed to be plugged into a PC to upload music. There were hold outs like Sony who were still using custom connectors at the phone end, but the trend seemed clear; phones needed to sync to a PC so needed a lead to a USB port. So at the time the EU rule seemed to me like another case of politicians seeing which way the crowd was running, pushing to the front and shouting "follow me".

All the USB connectors since have been driven by the need for a thinner socket to allow thinner phones. Mini USB seems laughably huge by modern standards.

You can plug an Apple device into a USB charger using a cable, those cables are 5 for £9 on Amazon so under £2 each and not much more expensive than the 5 pack of USB cables I last bought. I have real difficulty seeing how I am being injured as a consumer here.
Until recently the chargers themselves have been an extension of the USB spec, but if I can't find the Qualcomm fast charging standard charger for my Moto G I can still plug into any old charger and chances are it will draw 2.1A at 5V.

Why does my phone charge at 2.1A and not the 0.5A USB standard? Because they both adhere to the Apple Ipad charger signalling standard which uses just 4 cheap resistors in the charger. Thank you Apple, I'm still not buying your products but you have my thanks for your part in unifying the charger market.

[DanceswithUnix]

For those that consider USB to be a charging standard, have a browse of a charger data sheet. Original USB spec allows for 0.1A (0.5A after enumeration), we are generally using either proprietary (like the Qualcomm fast charge on my phone) or most likely Ipad charging.

https://processors.wiki.ti.com/index...Port_.28DCP.29

USB C cleans this up, and will naturally take over. In the mean time, we have 2.1A available thanks to "Divider mode" 2.

Edit: Even USB C just gives you options, but you might not actually want to use a 19V capable laptop charger for your phone; it is a negotiation of a set of possibles.

[loftie]

They've been shown to be pretty wasteful in the past, anyone remember this one? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commis...C)_No._2257/94 - what happens to the bananas that aren't straight enough? ....

Sold as class 2?

[3dcandy]

PD standard on USB charger as well... just to throw that in the mix

[lodore]

I can see the stance from EU and also the stance from apple. Apple already use usb type c on macbook pros and ipad pros. Apple didn't care about customers purchasing new accessorises when they ditched the old dock connector they used when they replaced it with lightning. Apple also didn't care when it made customers obtain dongles when they purchased a new macbook with all usb type c ports only.
I feel the main reason apple doesn't want to ditch lightning port on ipad and iphones is simply due to the license fee they make from the accessories using the lightning port.
If you own a current macbook pro and an iphone you need to purchase a lightning to usb c cable to connect it to the macbook. The irony is that with a lightning to usb a cable you can connect it to any standard windows desktop or laptop. People normally like the apple eco system because it works well together but this doesn't seem to be the case anymore.
usb type c does seem to be be used much more than other charging cables. Nintendo have always used to use a proprietary cable but this changed with the switch when they adopted usb type c.
Usb type C port itself it a standard but the features it provides does vary. If you want to charge a oneplus phone at full speed you need a dash charger.

The same issue is happening with electric cars. Every manufacturer is using a different charging cable /connector. Adaptors can be used but you would only get the fastest speed if you use the specific charger from the manufacturer.

[iggy]

Using industry standard connectors only hurts apple. Deceitful rubbishrubbishrubbishrubbishs.

[3dcandy]

I can see the stance from EU and also the stance from apple. Apple already use usb type c on macbook pros and ipad pros. Apple didn't care about customers purchasing new accessorises when they ditched the old dock connector they used when they replaced it with lightning. Apple also didn't care when it made customers obtain dongles when they purchased a new macbook with all usb type c ports only.
I feel the main reason apple doesn't want to ditch lightning port on ipad and iphones is simply due to the license fee they make from the accessories using the lightning port.
If you own a current macbook pro and an iphone you need to purchase a lightning to usb c cable to connect it to the macbook. The irony is that with a lightning to usb a cable you can connect it to any standard windows desktop or laptop. People normally like the apple eco system because it works well together but this doesn't seem to be the case anymore.
usb type c does seem to be be used much more than other charging cables. Nintendo have always used to use a proprietary cable but this changed with the switch when they adopted usb type c.
Usb type C port itself it a standard but the features it provides does vary. If you want to charge a oneplus phone at full speed you need a dash charger.

The same issue is happening with electric cars. Every manufacturer is using a different charging cable /connector. Adaptors can be used but you would only get the fastest speed if you use the specific charger from the manufacturer.

Phones that charge via usb c will all get a decent charging speed with any charger - but dash chargers, QC chargers etc. all vary how they work slightly. They basically use their own ideas to charge a battery quicker than it would via "normal" usb methods. PD or power delivery is a subset of this and with newer phones like the Note 10/S10 using this AND quick charge subsystems it will become more and more standard

Apple appear somewhat all over the place these days with trying to appeal to all. PD means that USB-C delivers the power they want and also Thunderbolt uses USB-C so to get what they want they have really had to go down that route

[Iota]

Sold as class 2?

It didn't happen in the supermarkets at the time. They simply didn't sell Class 2 products (I was in retail management at the time). If you think it didn't lead to wasted product, I honestly don't know what to say to you.

[Ttaskmaster]

Apple is right this time. Forcing all devices to have a single specific connector is stupid.

Agreed - There's nothing better than all the Apple users desperately asking if anyone has an iCable to charge their iPhone, and everyone else quite honestly responding, "Nope......"

But then, what do I know - I was informed by a guy from our London office (so you know he's cool, hip and happening, probably a graduate and definitely has his finger on the pulse), that "it'd be so much easier if everyone just used Apple devices. I mean, everyone already knows how to use them, and they just work"..... I presume he'll be paying for the 35,000 new devices!

Unfortunately, not being a Londoner any more, I wouldn't know an Apple cable if you whipped me with it and called me Susan!!

[loftie]

Sure I can see how waste could have happened, especially if the rules landed on everyone with little notice and no time to prepare. I was a bit young when it happened so I wouldn't know, however I do remember my dad grabbing class 2 fruit/veg from the market when I was a kid and I also remember less than perfectly shaped veg when we went to Italy. I can also not state how the classes affected companies that made prepackaged food.
All in all, you can't equate your experience in supermarkets to everything in all EU member states. (nor can I)

I'll add, it wouldn't be the EUs fault if the supermarkets chose not to sell class 2 products. Maybe they assumed people wouldn't buy class 2 products, shame they didn't think of the term 'wonky' a bit earlier.