Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 16 of 30

Thread: Overclocker checks Intel Core i9-10900K delidding benefits

  1. #1
    HEXUS.admin
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    29,930
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked
    1,938 times in 679 posts

    Overclocker checks Intel Core i9-10900K delidding benefits

    der8auer measured cores 6 or 7 degrees cooler but warned not to expect many more MHz.
    Read more.

  2. #2
    Long member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    1,793
    Thanks
    61
    Thanked
    308 times in 219 posts
    • philehidiot's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Father's bored
      • CPU:
      • Cockroach brain V0.1
      • Memory:
      • Innebriated, unwritten
      • Storage:
      • Big Yellow Self Storage
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Semi chewed Crayola Mega Pack
      • PSU:
      • 20KW single phase direct grid supply
      • Case:
      • Closed, Open, Cold
      • Operating System:
      • Cockroach
      • Monitor(s):
      • The mental health nurses
      • Internet:
      • Please.

    Re: Overclocker checks Intel Core i9-10900K delidding benefits

    Intel have had to improve thermals as they've thrown loads of power at the chip to get extra performance. I expect most people to experience poor OC headroom.

    I would like to know why CPUs were given heatspreaders? I remember back in the day we didn't have them atop CPUs and on a certain model of AMD chip you could use a pencil to draw on a connection to unlock the multiplier. It makes sense that, if done well, a heatspreader would increase the area available for removing heat from the CPU but, if done poorly, it reduces thermal conductivity.

    Is it just because most coolers are cheap and in those cases a heatspreader is better?

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Wonderful Warwick!
    Posts
    3,103
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked
    118 times in 101 posts

    Re: Overclocker checks Intel Core i9-10900K delidding benefits

    Also remember it improves processor durability as the process gets smaller the actual chips get smaller and the contact area is reduced. look at the contact patches for the above processors - putting a cooler on badly could easily damage them and you get an extra layer of protection
    Old puter - still good enuff till I save some pennies!

  4. #4
    Old Geezer
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Under a rusty bucket
    Posts
    387
    Thanks
    17
    Thanked
    22 times in 15 posts

    Re: Overclocker checks Intel Core i9-10900K delidding benefits

    Quote Originally Posted by philehidiot View Post
    Intel have had to improve thermals as they've thrown loads of power at the chip to get extra performance. I expect most people to experience poor OC headroom.

    I would like to know why CPUs were given heatspreaders? I remember back in the day we didn't have them atop CPUs and on a certain model of AMD chip you could use a pencil to draw on a connection to unlock the multiplier. It makes sense that, if done well, a heatspreader would increase the area available for removing heat from the CPU but, if done poorly, it reduces thermal conductivity.

    Is it just because most coolers are cheap and in those cases a heatspreader is better?
    Doing away with the heatspreader and, on high-end coolers, a few quids worth of silver on the contact surface would, I think, work better. Silver is a much better conductor of heat than copper.

  5. #5
    Senior Member watercooled's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    11,105
    Thanks
    1,517
    Thanked
    974 times in 834 posts

    Re: Overclocker checks Intel Core i9-10900K delidding benefits

    Well the clue is in the name really, a heatspreader spreads heat. Provided there's a half-decent thermal interface between the die and the heatspreader, it makes effective cooling far more straightforward and reduces risks of hot-spots on the die, reduces risks where the heatsink base isn't completely flat, and in most real-world cases will simply give better thermal results than a bare die touching a heatsink base - the heatspreader will typically be copper (very conductive) and effectively takes heat from a very small surface area (high power density) and spreads it to a much larger surface area (lower power density), making the thermal interface between it and the cooler much less sensitive. Even in this video he replaces the stock thermal interface material with another one, the heatspreader stays right where it is to do its job.

    'Back in the day', CPUs didn't have anywhere close to the power density seen on modern processors so were much easier to cool effectively.

    The heatspreader also adds a great deal of mechanical strength to the CPU and amongst other things prevents the risk of cracked dies.

  6. #6
    Senior Member watercooled's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    11,105
    Thanks
    1,517
    Thanked
    974 times in 834 posts

    Re: Overclocker checks Intel Core i9-10900K delidding benefits

    Quote Originally Posted by Friesiansam View Post
    Doing away with the heatspreader and, on high-end coolers, a few quids worth of silver on the contact surface would, I think, work better. Silver is a much better conductor of heat than copper.
    In a handful of edge cases a bare die might provide marginally better results, and people who want to achieve that are free to delid. Silver is only marginally better than copper in terms of thermal conductivity and you'd need more than a plating for it to be worthwhile anyway.

    Edit: Some figures to back up what I'm saying about thermal conductivity.

    Copper: 401W/(m.K)
    Silver: 419W/(m.K)

    At room temperature. Source: https://neutrium.net/heat_transfer/t...ls-and-alloys/

  7. #7
    Long member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    1,793
    Thanks
    61
    Thanked
    308 times in 219 posts
    • philehidiot's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Father's bored
      • CPU:
      • Cockroach brain V0.1
      • Memory:
      • Innebriated, unwritten
      • Storage:
      • Big Yellow Self Storage
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Semi chewed Crayola Mega Pack
      • PSU:
      • 20KW single phase direct grid supply
      • Case:
      • Closed, Open, Cold
      • Operating System:
      • Cockroach
      • Monitor(s):
      • The mental health nurses
      • Internet:
      • Please.

    Re: Overclocker checks Intel Core i9-10900K delidding benefits

    Quote Originally Posted by watercooled View Post
    Well the clue is in the name really, a heatspreader spreads heat. Provided there's a half-decent thermal interface between the die and the heatspreader, it makes effective cooling far more straightforward and reduces risks of hot-spots on the die, reduces risks where the heatsink base isn't completely flat, and in most real-world cases will simply give better thermal results than a bare die touching a heatsink base - the heatspreader will typically be copper (very conductive) and effectively takes heat from a very small surface area (high power density) and spreads it to a much larger surface area (lower power density), making the thermal interface between it and the cooler much less sensitive. Even in this video he replaces the stock thermal interface material with another one, the heatspreader stays right where it is to do its job.

    'Back in the day', CPUs didn't have anywhere close to the power density seen on modern processors so were much easier to cool effectively.

    The heatspreader also adds a great deal of mechanical strength to the CPU and amongst other things prevents the risk of cracked dies.
    So it's one of those things where, if you're obsessive and you know what you're doing, removing the heat spreader can produce better results. But, in most situations, it improves thermal performance as idiots like me just splat on some paste and wack on a cooler, going "LOOK MUM! I BUILT A PEE CEE!"

    Makes sense.

  8. #8
    Theoretical Element Spud1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    North West
    Posts
    7,175
    Thanks
    274
    Thanked
    276 times in 219 posts
    • Spud1's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Mac Pro
      • CPU:
      • 2x 2.8ghz Quad Core Xeons (octo-core)
      • Memory:
      • 4gb DDR2 FB-Dimm
      • Storage:
      • 1x1TB, 1x320gb, 2x500gb, 1x250gb, 120GB SSD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Nvidia Geforce 560Ti
      • PSU:
      • Mac pro PSU
      • Case:
      • Mac Pro Case
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 8
      • Monitor(s):
      • 1x22" LG 3D TFT 1x 19" ViewSonic
      • Internet:
      • 80mb BT Infinity

    Re: Overclocker checks Intel Core i9-10900K delidding benefits

    Quote Originally Posted by philehidiot View Post
    I would like to know why CPUs were given heatspreaders? I remember back in the day we didn't have them atop CPUs and on a certain model of AMD chip you could use a pencil to draw on a connection to unlock the multiplier.
    I remember this well Back when I was a broke student and all I could afford was a bottom rung Athlon XP...but once unlocked it overclocked like crazy, never had so much out of a single chip. Those were they days!

  9. #9
    Senior Member watercooled's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    11,105
    Thanks
    1,517
    Thanked
    974 times in 834 posts

    Re: Overclocker checks Intel Core i9-10900K delidding benefits

    Quote Originally Posted by philehidiot View Post
    So it's one of those things where, if you're obsessive and you know what you're doing, removing the heat spreader can produce better results.
    Pretty much. For the majority of people I'd say it's beneficial and avoids all sorts of problems, not least because it means PC integrators or builders can just slap on a cheap cooler and not have to worry about it.

    There are definitely times where the interface between die and heatspreader has been poor, for instance some of Intel's older CPUs where the die could be upwards of 90C but the heatsink barely lukewarm leading to people thinking it necessary to get some sort of expensive AIO to cool a stock quad core CPU - the thermal capacity wasn't the problem, the transfer was just incredibly inefficient because of rubbish TIM instead of solder. It's like trying to fix a slipping clutch with more revs - you might end up brute-forcing through the problem but it wasn't the engine's fault the wheels were barely turning!

  10. #10
    Long member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    1,793
    Thanks
    61
    Thanked
    308 times in 219 posts
    • philehidiot's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Father's bored
      • CPU:
      • Cockroach brain V0.1
      • Memory:
      • Innebriated, unwritten
      • Storage:
      • Big Yellow Self Storage
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Semi chewed Crayola Mega Pack
      • PSU:
      • 20KW single phase direct grid supply
      • Case:
      • Closed, Open, Cold
      • Operating System:
      • Cockroach
      • Monitor(s):
      • The mental health nurses
      • Internet:
      • Please.

    Re: Overclocker checks Intel Core i9-10900K delidding benefits

    Yeh the TIM issue was one reason why I was wondering "why bother" as delidding seems to be more and more of a thing, enthusiasts use decent paste and coolers so why bother sticking another point of failure in there as well as another manufacturing process to pay for.

    But there are real enthusiasts and wannabe enthusiasts. I'm the latter and do not really expect a handful of extra MHz on my OC or a few degrees cooler running would be something worth the hassle. I expect the approach they've taken is best as those people who want to really go at a tough overclock will probably relish the extra challenge of delidding.

  11. #11
    Senior Member watercooled's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    11,105
    Thanks
    1,517
    Thanked
    974 times in 834 posts

    Re: Overclocker checks Intel Core i9-10900K delidding benefits

    Besides the mechanical advantages, using a mediocre thermal paste (or an excessive gap) between die and heat spreader is no better than using the same TIM between the die and heatsink directly. Many high performance parts now use soldered heatspreaders so there's a direct metallic path between them. Note how the 9900k with soldered IHS had better temperature readings than the previous products with thermal paste.
    Edit: Some measurements of that: https://www.tomshardware.com/uk/revi...u,5847-12.html

  12. #12
    Moosekateer CAT-THE-FIFTH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Not here
    Posts
    29,496
    Thanks
    3,318
    Thanked
    4,627 times in 3,571 posts
    • CAT-THE-FIFTH's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Less E-PEEN
      • CPU:
      • Massive E-PEEN
      • Memory:
      • RGB E-PEEN
      • Storage:
      • Not in any order
      • Graphics card(s):
      • EVEN BIGGER E-PEEN
      • PSU:
      • OVERSIZED
      • Case:
      • UNDERSIZED
      • Operating System:
      • DOS 6.22
      • Monitor(s):
      • NOT USUALLY ON....WHEN I POST
      • Internet:
      • FUNCTIONAL

    Re: Overclocker checks Intel Core i9-10900K delidding benefits

    A bare die also increases the chance of the CPU die being damaged during assembly.


    Those despicable Elk,stealing the pond weed!

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    3,067
    Thanks
    424
    Thanked
    388 times in 266 posts

    Re: Overclocker checks Intel Core i9-10900K delidding benefits

    Quote Originally Posted by watercooled View Post
    Well the clue is in the name really, a heatspreader spreads heat.
    It's a bit of a misnomer IMO as while it technically spreads the heat it doesn't do it any more than a heatsink would if it was in direct contact with the die, a more apt name would be loadspreader as that's the primary purpose of them, as dies got smaller the chances of chipping or cracking the die increased. Balancing a big heavy thing on a small bit of what's essentially glass and worse yet apply pressure to it with clips or screws can cause all sort of problems, especially if you've got little experience in building computers.

    You're also right in what you say later that direct die contact doesn't really buy you much more thermal headroom (maybe 5-10°c) so it doesn't really effect maximum clock speeds a great deal so i guess because they were seeing slowly increasing RMA rates and customer dissatisfaction as dies got smaller they wanted to address that issue more than what at the time was pretty much a non-issue.

  14. #14
    Senior Member watercooled's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    11,105
    Thanks
    1,517
    Thanked
    974 times in 834 posts

    Re: Overclocker checks Intel Core i9-10900K delidding benefits

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    It's a bit of a misnomer IMO as while it technically spreads the heat it doesn't do it any more than a heatsink would if it was in direct contact with the die,
    Heatsinks are generally not soldered to the die...

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    3,067
    Thanks
    424
    Thanked
    388 times in 266 posts

    Re: Overclocker checks Intel Core i9-10900K delidding benefits

    Quote Originally Posted by watercooled View Post
    Heatsinks are generally not soldered to the die...
    Neither were Intel's heatspreaders until recently and that only happened (IMO) because they're trying to squeeze extra life out of their 14nm node.

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    639
    Thanks
    4
    Thanked
    19 times in 18 posts
    • Bhavv's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus Rampage III Extreme
      • CPU:
      • Intel I7 980
      • Memory:
      • Geil Ultra Series PC3-17000 12 Gb
      • Storage:
      • 2 x Seagate 4 Tb, Crucial M4 128 & 512 Gb
      • Graphics card(s):
      • 2 x Gigabyte Windforce OC GTX 970
      • PSU:
      • Antec HCP Platimum 1300w
      • Case:
      • Corsair Carbide Air 540
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 8.1 Pro 64 bit
      • Monitor(s):
      • Asus ROG Swift + Acer G24
      • Internet:
      • 3 One Plan unlimited 4G

    Re: Overclocker checks Intel Core i9-10900K delidding benefits

    Quote Originally Posted by philehidiot View Post
    Intel have had to improve thermals as they've thrown loads of power at the chip to get extra performance. I expect most people to experience poor OC headroom.

    I would like to know why CPUs were given heatspreaders? I remember back in the day we didn't have them atop CPUs and on a certain model of AMD chip you could use a pencil to draw on a connection to unlock the multiplier. It makes sense that, if done well, a heatspreader would increase the area available for removing heat from the CPU but, if done poorly, it reduces thermal conductivity.

    Is it just because most coolers are cheap and in those cases a heatspreader is better?
    Its because before they put on heatspreaders, a lot of CPU dies would crack under the pressure of the HSF. The heatspreaders were put on to equalise the pressure from the cooler and protect the die from damage.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •