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Thread: AMD and Intel do battle over TSMC capacity, says report

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    AMD and Intel do battle over TSMC capacity, says report

    Meanwhile, Intel teased an Xe GPU event for 14th August, but seems to have changed its mind…
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    Re: AMD and Intel do battle over TSMC capacity, says report

    I wonder how much Intel barrel barged in and whether it has impacted AMDs access or did TSMC put a red line around existing capacity.

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    Re: AMD and Intel do battle over TSMC capacity, says report

    Historically, TSMC have seemingly refused to allow any one company to unfairly push out competitors, even when Apple tried and failed to gain exclusive access to cutting-edge nodes. In this case, 7nm's increasing capacity along with Huawei's exit probably lines up well with increasing demand from other companies.

    Don't forget Intel is TSMC's competitor and I doubt it's in TSMC's long-term interest to displace any of their long-term customers like AMD, Nvidia, Apple, Qualcomm, etc in order to benefit a customer who will be looking to abandon them as soon as their own fabs are competitive again.

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    Re: AMD and Intel do battle over TSMC capacity, says report

    Intel's NNP-T was being built at TSMC, but was cancelled when Intel decided to go with Habana NNP designs back in Feb.

    Intel has several chip presentations at Hotchips 2020, in mid August ... Ice Lake Server, Tiger Lake, Xe GPU, Tofino 2, Agilex FPGA and a keynote by Raja Koduri.

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    Re: AMD and Intel do battle over TSMC capacity, says report

    My understanding is that transferring from one node to another isn't straightforward, so if this is happening there's more chance of there being a particular range or segment that's TSMC outsourced, rather than just a simple % of production.

    Also: Zen 4 still on 7nm+?

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    Re: AMD and Intel do battle over TSMC capacity, says report

    Honestly, if I was TSMC, I'd be considering the following:
    1) AMD is fabless and therefore relies on TSMC, et al to be competitive
    2) AMD remaining competitive ensures repeat and increasing business
    3) Intel will sod off as soon as they have their own fabs online
    4) I'm not building more fab capacity for Intel because they may leave as soon as their fabs work
    5) It may be in my long term best interests to stifle Intel right now and give AMD a competitive advantage as we have a symbiotic relationship as per 1 and 2.
    6) Intel is known as a business which throws its weight around willy nilly - do I want to be involved with someone who might stab me in the back?
    7) I'm already in a position where I can negotiate hard on prices and Intel has got to be desperate.
    8) Accepting loadsa cash now from Intel may send otherwise long term customers elsewhere and when Intel leave, I'll be left with money but a poorer long term outlook.
    9) Maybe I bleed Intel dry and then use the money to subsidise AMD for giggles.

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    Re: AMD and Intel do battle over TSMC capacity, says report

    Quote Originally Posted by JayN View Post
    Intel's NNP-T was being built at TSMC, but was cancelled when Intel decided to go with Habana NNP designs back in Feb.
    I believe there were some radio/modem-related products made elsewhere including ported Atom cores before Intel abandoned that segment. I know they were planned but can't remember how much they actually took off.

    Quote Originally Posted by edmundhonda View Post
    My understanding is that transferring from one node to another isn't straightforward, so if this is happening there's more chance of there being a particular range or segment that's TSMC outsourced, rather than just a simple % of production.
    Absolutely - plus making the same product at two fabs is risky as-is as you'll generally end up with two differently-performing products. Apple did this dual-sourcing a few years ago with TSMC and Samsung. AMD also ported some of their cat cores across GloFo and TSMC but for separate markets IIRC.
    Quote Originally Posted by edmundhonda View Post
    Also: Zen 4 still on 7nm+?
    Do you mean the next one, Zen3? Last I heard it's officially some 7nm node but I don't think they've specified exactly which one - the EUV node was rumoured for a while but I don't think AMD ever suggested that. Zen4 is planned for 5nm https://www.anandtech.com/show/15589...-not-specified

    Quote Originally Posted by philehidiot View Post
    Honestly, if I was TSMC, I'd be considering the following:
    Snip
    Agreed. No doubt it could be fortuitous timing for TSMC if they were at risk of having idle time with Huawei getting the boot though. That, and some of the mobile-oriented customers will be moving to the 5nm node soon.

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    Re: AMD and Intel do battle over TSMC capacity, says report

    Another point, AMD develop both CPU and GPU. They are taking back significant proportions of CPU market from Intel, which benefits TSMC.

    They are also likely to take back portions of the GPU market, although TSMC already fan a majority of this fir Nvidia, so not really a significant impact, if any at all. As water cooled states, TSMC have a good reputation in this regard.

    I'm not familiar with terms of custom chip fabrication (Sony and Microsoft are likely the biggest), but I'd imagine that is a decent chunk too.

    When I first read the title, despite knowing about Intel struggling so badly (they really are in a very desperate and troubling situation), I thought Intel were maybe employing poor practices again, to steal available fabrication capacity from AMD.

    I'm sure they've considered many illegal scenarios, as they can't keep up and will soon be in big trouble.

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    Re: AMD and Intel do battle over TSMC capacity, says report

    With the Intel GFX thing... I think they found out it was a bad idea to hire the AMD guy... or I dunno...

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    Re: AMD and Intel do battle over TSMC capacity, says report

    Quote Originally Posted by watercooled View Post
    Do you mean the next one, Zen3? Last I heard it's officially some 7nm node but I don't think they've specified exactly which one - the EUV node was rumoured for a while but I don't think AMD ever suggested that. Zen4 is planned for 5nm https://www.anandtech.com/show/15589...-not-specified
    That's what I thought, but the leak here says Zen 3 and 4, marked as 7/7+.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoyoyo69 View Post
    I'm not familiar with terms of custom chip fabrication (Sony and Microsoft are likely the biggest), but I'd imagine that is a decent chunk too.
    That's a point, talking about capacity. PS5 and XSX are both going to be based on a TSMC-made APU; PS4 hit 7m consoles sold inside 5 months and combined with the Xbox probably 10m in that timeframe, and 20m inside 12 months. I guess their iPhone production is moving from 7nm to 5nm, so depending on how the fabs are setup that's probably still extra capacity available. My guess is that they're hardly desperate for more business either way.

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    Re: AMD and Intel do battle over TSMC capacity, says report

    Quote Originally Posted by JayN View Post
    Intel's NNP-T was being built at TSMC, but was cancelled when Intel decided to go with Habana NNP designs back in Feb.

    Intel has several chip presentations at Hotchips 2020, in mid August ... Ice Lake Server, Tiger Lake, Xe GPU, Tofino 2, Agilex FPGA and a keynote by Raja Koduri.
    Do you work for intel? your limited post history reads like intel PR. If so could you maybe add this to your title in the interest of clarity?

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    Re: AMD and Intel do battle over TSMC capacity, says report

    Quote Originally Posted by QuorTek View Post
    With the Intel GFX thing... I think they found out it was a bad idea to hire the AMD guy... or I dunno...
    As I've noted before, AMD seem to be doing much better with him gone. Might be fluke, but funny none the less.

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    Re: AMD and Intel do battle over TSMC capacity, says report

    Quote Originally Posted by philehidiot View Post
    9) Maybe I bleed Intel dry and then use the money to subsidise AMD for giggles.
    that would be my approach. But then I don't work for TSMC

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    Re: AMD and Intel do battle over TSMC capacity, says report

    Quote Originally Posted by QuorTek View Post
    With the Intel GFX thing... I think they found out it was a bad idea to hire the AMD guy... or I dunno...
    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    As I've noted before, AMD seem to be doing much better with him gone. Might be fluke, but funny none the less.
    this made me chuckle. Anyone else getting flashbacks to Larrabee and how the press announcements on that kept getting pushed back and back?

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    Re: AMD and Intel do battle over TSMC capacity, says report

    Quote Originally Posted by philehidiot View Post
    6) Intel is known as a business which throws its weight around willy nilly - do I want to be involved with someone who might stab me in the back?
    Might? I'm just trying to guess how they could stab TSMC in the back, I honestly don't think they can help themselves as to whether they would.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog

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    Re: AMD and Intel do battle over TSMC capacity, says report

    Quote Originally Posted by philehidiot View Post
    3) Intel will sod off as soon as they have their own fabs online
    Isn't there a danger here that Intel will look closely at how TSMC is producing more useful wafers at lower process scaling and takes that knowledge back and applies it and adapts it to their own fabs and processes?

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