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Thread: Rumour: Apple M1X SoC will boast 12 CPU cores

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    Rumour: Apple M1X SoC will boast 12 CPU cores

    This beefier chip is expected to debut in the 2021 'Apple Silicon' MacBook Pro 16.
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    Re: Rumour: Apple M1X SoC will boast 12 CPU cores

    And this is why I strongly suggested people don't buy the last of the Intel macs. The R&D is going to be firmly focussed on this stuff now. And with good cause. Whilst, yes, there's excellent x86 emulation, the native stuff is still 30% faster or so.

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    Re: Rumour: Apple M1X SoC will boast 12 CPU cores

    Looks like it was made in someones garage. Glue squeeze-out and all.

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    Re: Rumour: Apple M1X SoC will boast 12 CPU cores

    BTW,this guy is generally a reliable leaker of Apple stuff,and he says LeaksApplePro tends to make stuff up:
    https://twitter.com/L0vetodream/stat...12741626359808

    Quote Originally Posted by philehidiot View Post
    And this is why I strongly suggested people don't buy the last of the Intel macs. The R&D is going to be firmly focussed on this stuff now. And with good cause. Whilst, yes, there's excellent x86 emulation, the native stuff is still 30% faster or so.
    I wouldn't really get the first generation of any Apple device. At previous workplaces where I worked where we had mostly Macs,we had enough issues doing this. Shockingly enough the Dells workstations despite being looked down at seemed to be mostly fine. Go,figure.

    The Intel ones won't be locked to one OS,ie,Windows and Linux will work. Those ARM based Macs will be totally locked down,and like a tablet or phone probably only have a 4~5 year actual lifespan,and will be disposable devices. Also emulation performance won't be consistent at all between applications,as much as the polished marketing will tell you. So you really can't say its excellent based on very limited tests,and Apple has a history of deceptive marketing claims. I suspect they wlll profile a bunch of applications which they feel will be popular,but if you are outside that circle,who knows??

    It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the last Intel based Macs hold their value quite well - it certainly happened for the last of the PowerPC ones.

    But why go that far - an 8C/16T Renoir laptop is much cheaper than any of these. Zen3 based APUs are soon coming out. Not sure unless you really need one or two pieces of Apple software,why you would want one,especially after seeing some of the Apple repair channels and their shoddy design decisions. One of them being not cooling voltage regulation properly,so it overheats and blows the CPU. Then on purpose removing any means to pull data off the soldered SSDs they used,because they want you to use iCloud.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 28-11-2020 at 04:53 AM.


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    Re: Rumour: Apple M1X SoC will boast 12 CPU cores

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    BTW,this guy is generally a reliable leaker of Apple stuff,and he says LeaksApplePro tends to make stuff up:
    https://twitter.com/L0vetodream/stat...12741626359808



    I wouldn't really get the first generation of any Apple device. At previous workplaces where I worked where we had mostly Macs,we had enough issues doing this. Shockingly enough the Dells workstations despite being looked down at seemed to be mostly fine. Go,figure.

    The Intel ones won't be locked to one OS,ie,Windows and Linux will work. Those ARM based Macs will be totally locked down,and like a tablet or phone probably only have a 4~5 year actual lifespan,and will be disposable devices. Also emulation performance won't be consistent at all between applications,as much as the polished marketing will tell you. So you really can't say its excellent based on very limited tests,and Apple has a history of deceptive marketing claims. I suspect they wlll profile a bunch of applications which they feel will be popular,but if you are outside that circle,who knows??

    It wouldn't surprise me one bit if the last Intel based Macs hold their value quite well - it certainly happened for the last of the PowerPC ones.

    But why go that far - an 8C/16T Renoir laptop is much cheaper than any of these. Zen3 based APUs are soon coming out. Not sure unless you really need one or two pieces of Apple software,why you would want one,especially after seeing some of the Apple repair channels and their shoddy design decisions. One of them being not cooling voltage regulation properly,so it overheats and blows the CPU. Then on purpose removing any means to pull data off the soldered SSDs they used,because they want you to use iCloud.
    Oh I would absolutely advise against a mac these days unless there's an outright need. But I get ignored as their marketing is just so good. Someone bought a Macbook pro and then complained he couldn't upgrade the SSD due to the bespoke... everything. He told me I was talking rubbish when I assured him they had it all locked down to ensure you couldn't do what he wanted to do. This is the guy who has an ancient Apple RAID set up with spinning discs, claiming it must be faster than anything because it's Apple and he spent £80 a drive. You can't tell him that he is wrong or that Apple are rip off merchants. It must be superior because... APPLE! The sad fact is that, for his use, a brisk USB stick stuck in his mac is probably better (of course, dingle dangling from a dongle as most USB sticks are USB-A and the Mac is the only thing he owns with USB-C...)

    As for the emulation performance, I'm going on the Anandtec benchmarks which were fairly thorough. The true test for me is to just run the same process on both machines - rendering something or whatever. Real world stuff and time it. That shows you the real life difference between two machines which are fairly similarly priced, and that is what matters to the end user.

    I doubt the Mac customers Apple wants to promote will care about putting an alternative OS on it. Those are people who want to use the machines in ways Apple has not sanctioned. I suspect you have missed the most crucial issue here... because they are going full ARM and canning x86, Apple will be able to ensure all sales are through their own store, ensuring they take a cut and ensuring you can't install anything of which they disapprove. There will probably be ways to sideload things on but what do you wanna bet that they go so far as to lock these down ala tablets and phones and to load anything outside of the store, they will require it to be jailbroken (almost certainly violating warranty conditions and, worse, ensuring they can remotely brick it with an "update" that "wasn't compatible" with jailbroken devices).

    Regardless of this, I strongly suspect that these Apple chips will be superb performers and be a real threat to Intel in years to come. Whether that is a threat due to Intel's lack of progress any everyone and their dog excreting better chips, or if that's due to Apple being amazing, who knows.

    One thing is for sure, the way Apple treated me when I had a hardware problem with a very expensive laptop with an extended "Apple Care" warranty (that I got free with it), I won't be handing them a penny ever again. Part of spending over a grand on a laptop is the assurance that you'll get adequate support if it all goes wrong. Not only do they treat you like something on their shoe, they also ensure you can't get repairs done anywhere else.

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    Re: Rumour: Apple M1X SoC will boast 12 CPU cores

    Quote Originally Posted by philehidiot View Post
    Oh I would absolutely advise against a mac these days unless there's an outright need. But I get ignored as their marketing is just so good. Someone bought a Macbook pro and then complained he couldn't upgrade the SSD due to the bespoke... everything. He told me I was talking rubbish when I assured him they had it all locked down to ensure you couldn't do what he wanted to do. This is the guy who has an ancient Apple RAID set up with spinning discs, claiming it must be faster than anything because it's Apple and he spent £80 a drive. You can't tell him that he is wrong or that Apple are rip off merchants. It must be superior because... APPLE! The sad fact is that, for his use, a brisk USB stick stuck in his mac is probably better (of course, dingle dangling from a dongle as most USB sticks are USB-A and the Mac is the only thing he owns with USB-C...)

    As for the emulation performance, I'm going on the Anandtec benchmarks which were fairly thorough. The true test for me is to just run the same process on both machines - rendering something or whatever. Real world stuff and time it. That shows you the real life difference between two machines which are fairly similarly priced, and that is what matters to the end user.

    I doubt the Mac customers Apple wants to promote will care about putting an alternative OS on it. Those are people who want to use the machines in ways Apple has not sanctioned. I suspect you have missed the most crucial issue here... because they are going full ARM and canning x86, Apple will be able to ensure all sales are through their own store, ensuring they take a cut and ensuring you can't install anything of which they disapprove. There will probably be ways to sideload things on but what do you wanna bet that they go so far as to lock these down ala tablets and phones and to load anything outside of the store, they will require it to be jailbroken (almost certainly violating warranty conditions and, worse, ensuring they can remotely brick it with an "update" that "wasn't compatible" with jailbroken devices).

    Regardless of this, I strongly suspect that these Apple chips will be superb performers and be a real threat to Intel in years to come. Whether that is a threat due to Intel's lack of progress any everyone and their dog excreting better chips, or if that's due to Apple being amazing, who knows.

    One thing is for sure, the way Apple treated me when I had a hardware problem with a very expensive laptop with an extended "Apple Care" warranty (that I got free with it), I won't be handing them a penny ever again. Part of spending over a grand on a laptop is the assurance that you'll get adequate support if it all goes wrong. Not only do they treat you like something on their shoe, they also ensure you can't get repairs done anywhere else.

    Well using essentially the same hardware as their iPads,means Apple can save on R and D costs for the two lines which are slowly slowing down in sales,and as you say they can get a cut of each software sale,as MacOS slowly becomes iOS. As Apple said they are now a "services company".Also like the phones they can stop updates after a few years,so make sure they follow the upgrade cycles of phones and tablets which are shorter. The main problem with Intel is them relying so much on their fabs being on time with node transitions,but OTH I am still kind of surprised Skylake after 5 years and essentially being on the same ancient 14NM nodes,still seems to have lasted as well as it did. So if Intel does manage to get past its fab problems,we might see a speedup on the X86 side again. Apple like AMD have gotten a bit lucky due to Intel's woes.


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    Re: Rumour: Apple M1X SoC will boast 12 CPU cores

    Quote Originally Posted by philehidiot View Post
    One thing is for sure, the way Apple treated me when I had a hardware problem with a very expensive laptop with an extended "Apple Care" warranty (that I got free with it), I won't be handing them a penny ever again. Part of spending over a grand on a laptop is the assurance that you'll get adequate support if it all goes wrong. Not only do they treat you like something on their shoe, they also ensure you can't get repairs done anywhere else.
    I've been following Apple's hardware as a curiosity but not because I'm interested in buying it, for much the same reasons as yourself. I find the whole ecosystem repulsive.

    Nonetheless, Apple's CPU design has been hinting at this for quite some time - increasingly large and power-hungry cores which have looked quite excessive for mobile devices. I don't think the rumoured M1X is unreasonable either - they need something to compete with the bigger desktop CPUs if they're to move their whole ecosystem away from x86 and still remain relevant in the workstation segment.

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    Re: Rumour: Apple M1X SoC will boast 12 CPU cores

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    Well using essentially the same hardware as their iPads,means Apple can save on R and D costs for the two lines which are slowly slowing down in sales,and as you say they can get a cut of each software sale,as MacOS slowly becomes iOS. As Apple said they are now a "services company".Also like the phones they can stop updates after a few years,so make sure they follow the upgrade cycles of phones and tablets which are shorter. The main problem with Intel is them relying so much on their fabs being on time with node transitions,but OTH I am still kind of surprised Skylake after 5 years and essentially being on the same ancient 14NM nodes,still seems to have lasted as well as it did. So if Intel does manage to get past its fab problems,we might see a speedup on the X86 side again. Apple like AMD have gotten a bit lucky due to Intel's woes.
    can you imagine where we'd be if intel had commisioned another nehalem push after the 1155 and 1150 series (skylake and ivy lake?)? I imagine there will have been some bean counter management consultant who said "we have no competition => save on R&D, milk this design for all it's worth and maximise returns vs expenses" and for the length of their tenure it was probably bang on. They will have milked huge bonuses and pay for this "genius". Then after they've left, with a glowing reference no doubt, the company is left with its pants down and nothing to cover its parts with when the competition arrives swinging the new big guns.

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    Re: Rumour: Apple M1X SoC will boast 12 CPU cores

    Whilst I broadly agree with most of the above there are some issues. The M1 isn't the same as the ipad cpus at all. Same cores (cos you can design an ARM core easily) but with extra hardware to accelerate X86 stuff. That and the fact the die includes embedded dram is why it performs as well as it does. Macs have been locked down for years - what really annoys me is that the stuff from 2020 including iphone 12's is basically unrepairable because at the moment even Apple can't repair them. Only thing you can swap is the display, anything else and it's cheaper to have a new iphone as the chips are all paired and locked to each other. So if, for example, the camera sensor breaks it's new iphone time currently as even Apple don't have the tools right now...

    Yes I can see the Apple silicon being decent, but I think we can all see that Macs are now not going to be regarded as workstations in many ways. Apple want the whole ecosystem locked down so much that this will either make them or break them....and as many of even my diehard Apple mates who need workstation style products are saying it's time to exit I'm with break them (workstation wise)
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    Re: Rumour: Apple M1X SoC will boast 12 CPU cores

    DANGER POTENTIAL: The problem of such companies that make propriety hardware and software is when they decide to cancel off production and updates of MAC because that line is not making money. WHERE WILL YOU GO? at the time when you have invested thousands on their software stack.

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    Re: Rumour: Apple M1X SoC will boast 12 CPU cores

    Quote Originally Posted by 3dcandy View Post
    Whilst I broadly agree with most of the above there are some issues. The M1 isn't the same as the ipad cpus at all. Same cores (cos you can design an ARM core easily)
    Not sure if I'm missing some subtext or sarcasm here but that's so profoundly wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by 3dcandy View Post
    but with extra hardware to accelerate X86 stuff.
    What is this hardware you speak of? Rosetta is a software stack.

    Quote Originally Posted by 3dcandy View Post
    That and the fact the die includes embedded dram is why it performs as well as it does.
    It's really not (I'm assuming you mean the on-die cache). The cache is large but not unprecedented, and in line with the extra CPU and GPU performance vs the A14. Large cache helps, but it's disingenuous to suggest it's the only reason the cores perform like they do.

    Quote Originally Posted by 3dcandy View Post
    Yes I can see the Apple silicon being decent, but I think we can all see that Macs are now not going to be regarded as workstations in many ways. Apple want the whole ecosystem locked down so much that this will either make them or break them....and as many of even my diehard Apple mates who need workstation style products are saying it's time to exit I'm with break them (workstation wise)
    I can see why people can think that, however Apple may be many things but naïve is not one of them. They've transitioned ISA before, and provided they can provide the performance their customers demand, there's no reason to think this won't work.

    Quote Originally Posted by lumireleon View Post
    DANGER POTENTIAL: The problem of such companies that make propriety hardware and software is when they decide to cancel off production and updates of MAC because that line is not making money. WHERE WILL YOU GO? at the time when you have invested thousands on their software stack.
    I mean yeah, but that's hardly an Apple exclusive problem.

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    Re: Rumour: Apple M1X SoC will boast 12 CPU cores

    Quote Originally Posted by ik9000 View Post
    can you imagine where we'd be if intel had commisioned another nehalem push after the 1155 and 1150 series (skylake and ivy lake?)? I imagine there will have been some bean counter management consultant who said "we have no competition => save on R&D, milk this design for all it's worth and maximise returns vs expenses" and for the length of their tenure it was probably bang on. They will have milked huge bonuses and pay for this "genius". Then after they've left, with a glowing reference no doubt, the company is left with its pants down and nothing to cover its parts with when the competition arrives swinging the new big guns.
    Intel were more worried about short term gain,and milking markets. I just hope AMD learns from that and does not get too complacent,because Intel is still floundering around.


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    Re: Rumour: Apple M1X SoC will boast 12 CPU cores

    Quote Originally Posted by lumireleon View Post
    DANGER POTENTIAL: The problem of such companies that make propriety hardware and software is when they decide to cancel off production and updates of MAC because that line is not making money. WHERE WILL YOU GO? at the time when you have invested thousands on their software stack.
    This is why my Mac is prepped for Linux. They have already declared it obsolete and it keeps getting updates that brick more and more features (all cloud related stuff so far, so I'm quite glad it's not working). Once my 2011 mac dies due to software failure, I shall simply pop Linux on and carry on using it until it dies completely. I am doing this purely because Apple have annoyed me and have declared it obsolete, whilst continuing to push updates that aren't compatible with it - you'd have thought that each update would have a hardware revision number that needs to be exceeded, but noooooo.

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