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Thread: Apple AirPods Max wireless headphones launched

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    Re: Apple AirPods Max wireless headphones launched

    Quote Originally Posted by Iota View Post
    Honestly for the market segment they're aiming at, I'd either opt for Bowers & Wilkins or Sony WH-1000XM4, likely the former if purely for music.

    I think headphones are also highly subjective to the user in question, everyone has different preferences for sound production and the nuances that are layered within any given piece of music. One size really doesn't fit all very well, especially if you don't actually test these in an environment that is suited for that purpose.

    I think there will be a lot of disappointed customers who buy these, either that or they'll be missing out on the subtleties of music.
    Agreed. The Sony '4's weren't out when I got the Sennheisers, but I did compare the '3's, Bose (QC35 v2, IIRC) and, yup, B&Ws too. For my taste, the Sony's were a little bass heavy, the Bose very good at noise reduction (which wasn't a High priority for me, but would be for some people) and ultimately, I subjectively just preferred the sound of the Sennheisers. But honestly, they're all very good, for anything like the money.

    I suspect it also depends quite a bit on what music you like. I have pretty varied tastes, but a lot of it is 50s to 70s rock, classical, even some types of Jazz (Rippingtons, for instance), but relatively little any later than 80s. Anyone with a different set of musical preferences could well prefer different phones. As you say, it's very personal. As is speaker choice, for that matter.
    A lesson learned from PeterB about dignity in adversity, so Peter, In Memorium, "Onwards and Upwards".

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    Re: Apple AirPods Max wireless headphones launched

    Quote Originally Posted by 3dcandy View Post
    They're beats cans - you wouldn't buy them after hearing them. Debate closed
    You may well be right. I just would have auditioned them, however briefly, before crossing them of my list, had they been out when I got the Momentums.
    A lesson learned from PeterB about dignity in adversity, so Peter, In Memorium, "Onwards and Upwards".

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    Re: Apple AirPods Max wireless headphones launched

    Quote Originally Posted by Duckboy79 View Post
    I'll stick with my wired Sony MDR-V150's thanks!, £30 and sound great!
    Beauty, in this case musical beauty, is in the eye of the beholder, or be-listener. And, of course, subject to both ability and inclination to spend more.

    I know quite a few people that don't get spending a grand or two on speakers/headphones, but would do so without hesitation on a high-end phone, fishing gear, golf clubs, bikes (of the pedal variety) etc. With me, it's audio gear. And camera gear. And cars. Up to a point, watches too.
    A lesson learned from PeterB about dignity in adversity, so Peter, In Memorium, "Onwards and Upwards".

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    Re: Apple AirPods Max wireless headphones launched

    Its all very subjective to the user's hearing. we all hear differently what is nice for one person is not necessarily good for another. So my only advice is where possible yes quite hard under Cov19 but go audition and buy what sounds best to your own ears.

    :-)

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    Re: Apple AirPods Max wireless headphones launched

    Quote Originally Posted by Iota View Post
    Honestly for the market segment they're aiming at, I'd either opt for Bowers & Wilkins or Sony WH-1000XM4, likely the former if purely for music.

    I think headphones are also highly subjective to the user in question, everyone has different preferences for sound production and the nuances that are layered within any given piece of music. One size really doesn't fit all very well, especially if you don't actually test these in an environment that is suited for that purpose.

    I think there will be a lot of disappointed customers who buy these, either that or they'll be missing out on the subtleties of music.
    The issue is even those established companies have a lot of competition from newer brands. I have gone to a few of the more recent Hifi shows in London with some mates,and literally a whole massive room was dedicated to headphones. There are so many companies out there producing excellent headphones now. I have listened to headphones which have even costed £10000(and they were beaten by headphones "only" 1/3 of the price so go figure).

    A number of them are putting a lot of R and D into innovations in the dynamic driver side,even more so than some of these larger companies. To put in context,it actually spoilt some of the more established headphone brands for us. We realised how much we were missing out by not doing some more research.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 09-12-2020 at 11:55 PM.

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    Re: Apple AirPods Max wireless headphones launched

    Apple is aiming audiophiles or fans.Fans will buy whatever apple shows, bit audiophile - like Saracen999 told above - only after considering all other options, at least it is a peace of metal and not a cheap plastic.

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    Re: Apple AirPods Max wireless headphones launched

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    The issue is even those established companies have a lot of competition from newer brands. I have gone to a few of the more recent Hifi shows in London with some mates,and literally a whole massive room was dedicated to headphones. There are so many companies out there producing excellent headphones now. I have listened to headphones which have even costed £10000(and they were beaten by headphones "only" 1/3 of the price so go figure).

    A number of them are putting a lot of R and D into innovations in the dynamic driver side,even more so than some of these larger companies. To put in context,it actually spoilt some of the more established headphone brands for us. We realised how much we were missing out by not doing some more research.
    That's certainly true, and any company that rests on it's laurels and considers itself unassailable is begging for a kicking. It's also hard to think of better examples to illustrate that simple fact than the tech world - look at what Microsoft did to IBM.

    However .... that's not to say that those big headphone companies don't have a whopping great advantage - brand recognition.

    I don't doubt that those keen enough to go to audio shows, like yourself (and me) can find up-and-coming companies producing extremely high quality gear and, mainly due to lack of brand recognition, can't charge what a Sony, Sennheiser, Bose, Grado, B&W, etc, would, even among 'cogniscenti', let alone the mass market that wouldn't know an audio show if it bit them in the butt.

    The other end of the market is that there is also a lot of cheap crap coming out of China. This is not a dig at China. A lot of the top-end product is made there, too. But to different standards.

    It's a bit like telling the difference between a real gun and a 'replica' that is actually a BB or air pistol - a firearms expert can tell in moments, if they get a close-up look, but 99.9% of people couldn't, and wouldn't know what to look for. So it is with headphones and esecially earphones. It's hard to tell those that look good but either sound crap or fall apart if you look at them wrong, from the high-quality-unknown-brand variety.

    So yeah, the market includes :-

    - high quality, high price, known brands
    - high quality, aggressively priced unknown brands, and
    - cheap crap best avoided unless you knowingly picked cheap crap.

    The advantage the first group has, and they price accordingly, is that everybody either knows who they are, or can easily find out. More tricky is separating the second from the third group.

    And, of course, some members of the second group, over time, migrate to the top group. I'd argue that that group includes Cambridge Audio. It seems to me they have very impressive kit, and while not 'cheap', exactly, are certainly much less expensive than market leaders and very competitively priced. I'm hovering on the edge of a set of earphones, and they'll probaly be CA.

    Part of the problem is the psychology of buyers. Different people make their choice for different reasons. Some, for instance, buy 'distinctive' brands because they want to be seen with them. Apple products, ragardless of how good they are or aren't, could be seen to fit into that category. Others buyers (including me) tend to avoid those 'fashionable' products, largely because they're 'fashionable. Some buyers (me, again) carefully research before buying, other splash out impulsively.

    But despite my 'research', I do tend to be inherently risk-averse. I need a lot of convincing to buy a cheaper, 'unknown' product over even a much more expensive brand product, because peace of mind can be worth even a significant price premium. Besides, bitter experience tells me that while cheaper products can be a bargain, if you pick correctly, it is also often the case that "buy right, buy once. Buy cheap, buy often".
    A lesson learned from PeterB about dignity in adversity, so Peter, In Memorium, "Onwards and Upwards".

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    Re: Apple AirPods Max wireless headphones launched

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen999 View Post
    That's certainly true, and any company that rests on it's laurels and considers itself unassailable is begging for a kicking. It's also hard to think of better examples to illustrate that simple fact than the tech world - look at what Microsoft did to IBM.

    However .... that's not to say that those big headphone companies don't have a whopping great advantage - brand recognition.

    I don't doubt that those keen enough to go to audio shows, like yourself (and me) can find up-and-coming companies producing extremely high quality gear and, mainly due to lack of brand recognition, can't charge what a Sony, Sennheiser, Bose, Grado, B&W, etc, would, even among 'cogniscenti', let alone the mass market that wouldn't know an audio show if it bit them in the butt.

    The other end of the market is that there is also a lot of cheap crap coming out of China. This is not a dig at China. A lot of the top-end product is made there, too. But to different standards.

    It's a bit like telling the difference between a real gun and a 'replica' that is actually a BB or air pistol - a firearms expert can tell in moments, if they get a close-up look, but 99.9% of people couldn't, and wouldn't know what to look for. So it is with headphones and esecially earphones. It's hard to tell those that look good but either sound crap or fall apart if you look at them wrong, from the high-quality-unknown-brand variety.

    So yeah, the market includes :-

    - high quality, high price, known brands
    - high quality, aggressively priced unknown brands, and
    - cheap crap best avoided unless you knowingly picked cheap crap.

    The advantage the first group has, and they price accordingly, is that everybody either knows who they are, or can easily find out. More tricky is separating the second from the third group.

    And, of course, some members of the second group, over time, migrate to the top group. I'd argue that that group includes Cambridge Audio. It seems to me they have very impressive kit, and while not 'cheap', exactly, are certainly much less expensive than market leaders and very competitively priced. I'm hovering on the edge of a set of earphones, and they'll probaly be CA.

    Part of the problem is the psychology of buyers. Different people make their choice for different reasons. Some, for instance, buy 'distinctive' brands because they want to be seen with them. Apple products, ragardless of how good they are or aren't, could be seen to fit into that category. Others buyers (including me) tend to avoid those 'fashionable' products, largely because they're 'fashionable. Some buyers (me, again) carefully research before buying, other splash out impulsively.

    But despite my 'research', I do tend to be inherently risk-averse. I need a lot of convincing to buy a cheaper, 'unknown' product over even a much more expensive brand product, because peace of mind can be worth even a significant price premium. Besides, bitter experience tells me that while cheaper products can be a bargain, if you pick correctly, it is also often the case that "buy right, buy once. Buy cheap, buy often".
    There is also one more category too - high priced,esoteric brands too!! Probably not as well known unless you are really into your hobby.

    Apparently Stax have been owned by Edifier for nearly a decade now! Was surprised when I found out at a show a while back - but you will be happy to hear they still sound pretty nice,even some of the newer "low end" models(by Stax standards). Can't quite justify at least £1000 on a pair,even though my last pair of Grado's seemed to have lasted well over a decade so far.

    I think one of the reasons I go to the shows is to check out some of the new up and coming brands,and also to checkout some of the more esoteric ones. Definitely in the US,there are some brands which have had more traction than here(and audiophiles rave about),so it's good chance to try before you buy. If not I probably would have stuck with Grado,Beyerdynamic,AKG and Sennheiser,which tend to be the brands I think are relatively safe options. What I did take away from some listening tests,are planar magnetics are really worth a try. So Meze,Hifiman and Audeze - you can get them in Richer Sounds and other retailers. Well worth a demo IMHO.

    Also agree about Cambridge Audio,they always made decent entry level and midrange stuff and its lasted. They would be my recommendation for anyone trying to get into Hifi. Much less snake oil than other brands.

    BTW,there is a term for that kind of cheap Chinese Hifi,ie,Chifi! There is a brand called Knowledge Zenith,who make multi driver modular IEMs(removable cables,bluetooth modules,etc) for well below £100. Got a pair to try out for £20,and was pleasantly surprised:
    https://knowledgezenith.com/

    Build quality was decent too. But honestly its kind of funny have dual driver headphone for so cheap!

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    Re: Apple AirPods Max wireless headphones launched

    I'm glad I had just finished my coffee when I saw that price or I'd have needed a new keyboard...
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    Re: Apple AirPods Max wireless headphones launched

    Quote Originally Posted by cheesemp View Post
    I'm glad I had just finished my coffee when I saw that price or I'd have needed a new keyboard...
    Cheap for cans sir - and don't start on speakers
    Old puter - still good enuff till I save some pennies!

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    Re: Apple AirPods Max wireless headphones launched

    Quote Originally Posted by cheesemp View Post
    I'm glad I had just finished my coffee when I saw that price or I'd have needed a new keyboard...
    Not to mention monitor, wallpaper and potentially pi.... um, irritated wife, dog and anyone else in spray range. Probably a good job you weren't drinking the coffee on a train.
    A lesson learned from PeterB about dignity in adversity, so Peter, In Memorium, "Onwards and Upwards".

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    Re: Apple AirPods Max wireless headphones launched

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen999 View Post
    Bose (QC35 v2, IIRC)
    I have those for listening to TV late at night, great for that purpose however I'm not so sure I'd like them for music though, due to being wireless. I've always felt that wireless headphones don't reproduce quite the same sounds as wired headphones. Very comfortable though, could wear them for hours without noticing.

    I'm definitely no audiophile, however even I notice the subtle differences between the multitude of headphones I've had over the years.

    Although one of my old friends is a little bit of an audiophile, he has some nice GS2000e headphones from Grado Labs (I'd never heard of them prior to him getting some), now those produce some lovely sound. Not entirely expensive in the realm of audiophile gear either.

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    Re: Apple AirPods Max wireless headphones launched

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    even though my last pair of Grado's seemed to have lasted well over a decade so far.
    Edit: I read this after posting. Clearly I'm definitely not an audiophile considering everyone seems to have heard of them aside from me!

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    Re: Apple AirPods Max wireless headphones launched

    Quote Originally Posted by Iota View Post
    Edit: I read this after posting. Clearly I'm definitely not an audiophile considering everyone seems to have heard of them aside from me!
    Grado was better known in the past for its turntable cartridges,and then they moved also into headphones,which are still mostly made in Brooklyn to this day. TBH,they are probably a bit on the fragile side - nowhere as well built as Sennheisers,but are classic "rock" headphones. Great for vocals,and have a very upfront and exciting sound.

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    Re: Apple AirPods Max wireless headphones launched

    Quote Originally Posted by mpdouglas View Post
    Beyond ridiculous! And guess how repairable they will be?! But they will keep doing this until we stop buying it. In my book, it's time to say enough is enough.
    I have never started buying from the fruit company, and the people who do i am a little apprehensive about.
    Mind you i feel the same about other brands and the users of them.

    My only set of headphones, aside for those that came with various walk and disk mans, well it was a set of Bayer Dynamic headphones, and i also used those a lot in between speaker swaps ( spent wayyyyy to much money on audio stuff as a teen )

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    Re: Apple AirPods Max wireless headphones launched

    All that money and no off button?

    The spatial audio sounds fun - I'm not aware of anyone else doing it. It ought to help immersion, but shame it's ios only (they might be doing the position relative to the phone screen, which is swish and would need something running on ios, but they could also do it with the normal stereo signal that everything sends over bluetooth)

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