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Source says that AMD could dualize some lines, as TSMC is so busy with Apple etc.
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Source says that AMD could dualize some lines, as TSMC is so busy with Apple etc.
Samsung cannot meet what nvidia need for supply, so how are they going to manage with amd as well
What makes you think that? Nvidia not being able to meet demand does not mean Samsung are at max capacity for the node. Large ICs like GPUs have lead times extending into several months, and then you have to factor PCB manufacturing, assembly and transport on top of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by eXistenZ
Chip development architectures cannot be 'ported' easily; 8nm Samsung and 7nm TSMC are radically different (INFACT Samsung is not better) and the costs involved to a new FAB design are very high, its better to wait for TSMC to catch up (they are building new facilities). LETS NOT FORGET AMD has GlobalFoudries who can use TSMC licence (speculation), maybe its GF who want to use 8nm Samsung licence- they did that with 14nmLPP.
I presume they're talking about 5nm, since that's what apple etc. are on.
Winner takes all, I am guessing Nvidia will have the buying potential to short out AMD for a while. Good on AMD for trying.Quote:
Originally Posted by eXistenZ
Only part of the issue for Nvidia is Samsung, they've had issues with GDDR6x supply, even vanilla GDDR6 supply is woeful, they've had issues with their cooler supplies for their reference cards as the cooler is quite specific and hard to manufacture, then there are pcb supply issues, etc...Quote:
Originally Posted by eXistenZ
So you add all things up and you have parts arriving at different times, you had covid19 so a lot of delay there as well, so by the time Nvidia receives all parts its probably at least 1 month delayed. So then you have the time for assembly, for testing, for shipping, etc...
AMD's woes mostly come from limited TSMC 7nm production, but they are also having some issues with GDDR6 memory being supply limited.
GloFlo are not progressing to EUV so therefore they're bust for next generation lithographies.Quote:
Originally Posted by lumireleon
You're all missing the boat. I've been experimenting with those phone sanitiser boxes and potatoes.
EUV becomes PUV. And it's going to be awesome.
Actually.... I wonder what happens if I take a potato and expose it to lots of UV....
First, we had Bananaman, now meet, Potatoman!Quote:
Originally Posted by philehidiot
Of course. It will be a case of weighing up redesigning products for another node against potential losses for restricted supply and considering offset of likely lower per-wafer costs (if volume is high enough to offset initial costs). That's assuming 8nm, but as kalniel says it could be more a case of planning for future products, particularly as the source mentions pushing against Apple for capacity (which could imply 5nm). And this wouldn't be an overnight switch anyway, even a backport of 7nm to 8nm for a complex product like CPU/GPU would take many months, by which time we might be seeing early ramp of 5nm anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by lumireleon
I wouldn't be surprised if the consoles were designed to be fab at more than one company. IIRC,this was the case with previous consoles. If this is indeed the case,AMD might already have done tests for CPU/GPU production at other companies. I remember CD from Semi-Accurate many years ago wrote an article about AMD Jaguar,and how AMD had designed it to be more easily ported to different fabs and process nodes. I suspect it might have been one reason why the console APUs used AMD Jaguar(and also its smaller size in MM2 compared to the bigger cores).
Yeah the Jaguar core was used across GloFo and TSMC. I think even some of their PC processors based on Jaguar were made across foundries depending on which SKUs you bought.
I forgot to add to my previous post. Regarding GloFo being a licensee or adding capacity for AMD; I don't think it's the most likely scenario. Part of the reason they abandoned their own 7nm was ostensibly down to floor space - they were already close to utilising what they had available and a shift to 7nm would have meant more new build (so more capital and waiting years) or converting existing floor space, reducing existing capacity in the interim and losing money.
Amusing to read this after those rumours that Ampere launching on Samsung's 8nm was only a stopgap and the plan was to move to TSMC in 2021.
Which could of course be part of the reason there's pressure on the AMD share.Quote:
Originally Posted by edmundhonda
Solanine :)Quote:
Originally Posted by philehidiot
That only makes sense if capacity is due to be freed up at TSMC though, as the likes of AMD will already have production contracts in place with TSMC.Quote:
Originally Posted by edmundhonda
It's like all the media hysteria over the automotive chips and the implication this will eat capacity from everyone else. For the automotive processors that are actually made on cutting-edge nodes (most aren't, and some are even on 200mm wafers on much older nodes) the volumes really aren't that significant in the grand scheme of things from what I understand. You know what the Internet is like, a few grains of a rumour, make the rest up and run with it...
....ohhh wait! Samsung is designing Exynos GPUs using Radeon tech maybe that's were AMD will get a cut on chip transfer coz Samsung engineers will 'simply' help AMD port some chips to Samsung 8nm and 'forward port' to 5nm. ALSO Diplomatic tensions concerning China and Taiwan, better have a leg in South Korea just in case.
Considering AMD's chiplet design it makes perfect sense for them to get CPU & GPU chiplets from multiple sources and bin them according to how they perform.
Samsung would be more keen and willing to work with AMD than Nvidia for one reason, the entire console market, Nvidia has no hold on that.
Hasn't the Switch sold over 70 million units?Quote:
Originally Posted by QuorTek
It's all rather ironic, isn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by kalniel
After Nvidia claimed (or spread a 'sources close to...' story) that the margins for consoles were too thin (implying AMD were desperate, which they were, but then Nvidia burnt a lot of bridges with their previous behaviour with Microsoft and Sony), they then went for the console with probably the lowest margins and certainly the least likely to influence game developers to use certain GPU features.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kompukareIt's all rather ironic, isn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by kalniel
After Nvidia claimed (or spread a 'sources close to...' story) that the margins for consoles were too thin (implying AMD were desperate, which they were, but then Nvidia burnt a lot of bridges with their previous behaviour with Microsoft and Sony), they then went for the console with probably the lowest margins and certainly the least likely to influence game developers to use certain GPU features.
Yep. They were very arrogant and full of themselves. When they saw AMD gaining so much control progress, then realising nobody wanted their chips. They were desperate to get Nintendo signed up, huge discounts, but they'll never admit it publicly.
Huge faceplate
INTERESTING PANIC that when Jensen was launching RTX 3000 series he mentioned " the RTX 3080 has raytracing effects like the upcoming Playstation 5". If you clearly think your products are superior and due to the valuation of your company on the stock exchange why feel threatened by the under-dog? 3060ti and 3060 12 gb is a clear indicator Nvidia never expected AMD to come up fast. Microsoft/Apple/Sony/Samsung are clearly working with AMD and that is pressure.
PlayStation 4- 115 million units
Xbox One- 51 million units
Yeah doubt this will actually happen, how will you port a FAB design especially when one is 8nm and the other is 7
You're making the assumption that they would be porting the same design to another node, which may not be the case. And even than, Intel have backported Sunny Cove from 10nm to 14nm for Rocket lake - it is possible if the need arises.
I thought Samsung can't do 7nm just 8
I imagine Sony would be happy to port to Samsung's next gen (6nm or whatever) if it helps yields. After all, they have a static performance target, and after that it's just how much the die costs and how hard it is to cool.
Moving some Sony chippery to Samsung might free up some wafers for AMD's own chips.
Samsung do lots of nodes including 7nm. As for why Nvidia used 8nm instead, it could have been down to cost, yield, characteristics, capacity - any number of reasons. If I remember correctly, Samsung's 7nm is exclusively EUV, so it could also be down to capacity of their EUV scanners.Quote:
Originally Posted by idasbot
Yeah, consoles are an interesting thought - and they are currently craving more wafers, but they'd have to weigh that against eating into profit margins for products they currently sell at a loss anyway, and whether it would be worthwhile in the long run given how console chip demand starts extremely high then tapers off.Quote:
Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix
The loss on consoles is anyways a bit strange.Quote:
Originally Posted by watercooled
Obviously we don't know the details, but the assumption has always been and is stronger this gen that Sony and Microsoft basically fund a lot of AMD's R&D especially for GPUs. I believe the current loss of $50, $100, $150 per console doesn't take that upfront loss into account
.
What is more important is to get the marketshare.Sony seem to have been doing well there since they have the weaker console by quite a bit, yet have outsold Microsoft.
If the first few years of a console generation is all about numbers, then the cost of porting / redesigning the chips to fab with Samsung (which might easily run into $100+ million) might make a lot of sense. Now, whether AMD have any spare engineering capacity to embark on porting the design in time is another question. Probably not.
Which is why I was wondering if they would be buying into a newer process.Quote:
Originally Posted by watercooled
Consoles usually start off selling at a loss, but after a few shrinks it gets easier to hit clock targets as well as getting more chips per wafer and they get easier to cool. So if, by the time a chip has taped out for Samsung's design rules and a few test chips come back, they are months down the line it might be that a newer process is what they are targeting.
Probably not improved enough for a PS5 slim yet, but might help.
"Samsung cannot meet what nvidia need for supply, so how are they going to manage with amd as well"
This 100% sums this story up.
On the other hand, Samsung had no problems meeting demand for GT1030 and GT1050/Ti with their 14nm.Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggusDickus
And even with the new 8nm products, there were stories that at least for GA102 (3080 and 3090) GDDR6X supply is major problem too.
Also GA102 is a 600mm²+ product which they seem to have decided to run past the perf/watt sweetspot of Samsung's 8nm. Guess time will tell: if they launch a GA102 3070 Ti with plentiful supply it probably means that 600mm²+ at the speed of 3080 and 3090 was pushing it.
As for AMD and Samsung Semi: well we have no idea what size chips AMD intend to fab there. Zen3 CCDs at under 100mm² would be totally different than trying to fab Navi21 (which is already 520mm² with TSMC's 7nm and would be close to 600mm² on Samsung's 8nm going by the transistors/size of GA102 vs the existing Navi).
Also, porting / redesigning (which is a more accurate description of the work which would required to move a design from TSMC's 7nm to Samsung's 8nm) probably takes a year or so so unless AMD started this work ages ago (and like I said in the PS5 comment, do AMD even have enough engineering resources to have begun this already while already taping out three consoles chips, Zen3 in both CCD and APU format - I think not) this is far more likely to be a Samsung post-8nm node.
From wafer requirement calculations, the consoles are taking up to 80% of AMD's TSMC allocation so it makes the most sense to port those and with at least the PS5 chip already running past the sweetspot of TSMC's 7nm node, porting it to a worse node (Samsung's 8nm) would be impossible as a console is fixed (that is they can't 'simply' redesign it so the GPU runs slower but wider).
I've seen the 80% figure bandied about few times now, eg:Quote:
Originally Posted by kompukare
https://www.hardwaretimes.com/1-mill...-for-big-navi/
but I've also seen it stated that 1M 5000 series CPUs sold is a ramp up twice as fast as AMD have ever done in the past. They probably believed they had the launch covered, but still badly underestimated the demand.
Possibly. 1 million Zen3 CCDs are only about 1,500 wafers though, while 4.5 million PS5 would be around 35,000 (equivalent to over 22 million Zen3 CCDs).Quote:
Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix
The figures are probably worse than that since Sony pushed for higher clocks after seeing Microsoft's specs and it is possible they had lot of fully functional parts which couldn't hit those clocks.
Wasn't there talk of 60% yields or worse for Sony at some point whereas the widely bandied around defect of TSMC's 7nm of 0.09 per mm² (which is from a good while ago so yields should be far better than that now) gives a yield of about 76% for a 308m² part according to my calculations:
https://i.imgur.com/qn0Mhl0.png
Hm, between 60% and 76% that would mean that, what, 16% or so of 4.5 million working parts are waiting to be dumped? Woudn't mind some of those for a monster APU build!
THIS. This is why I just posted on wccftech the AMD ride is over (as I've said many times before, it ends this year or next). They forgot to make money over the last 3yrs on great tech. Instead they priced stupidly for market share which makes NO NET INCOME.Quote:
Originally Posted by eXistenZ
Now, Intel is fully awake and buying your 3nm TSMC wafers before you can. Now Pat is back and Intel has an ENGINEER again as CEO and he's waited decades for this job to come (GROVEAN rules he said...LOL). He wants FABS and CHIP KINGS, PERIOD. Blue Crystals? Pffft, not from KICKING Pat. Note in the Q&A he said 2023 almost all Intel product IN HOUSE all year. He looked at the 7nm data and believes they have solved 7nm. That said, TSMC 3nm first I guess...LOL. I'd say this is NOT required either and fully think this is PAT making an Art of War move. Sure I could use my fab for 2022, but that wouldn't hurt AMD as much and NOT taking TSMC 3nm wafers gives AMD MANY more cpus etc to sell. Take the wafers EVEN if you are 100% good at your own fabs for this year and next. You can't gain INCOME if I take the wafers you require to build a chip (call samsung, LOL - See NV going back to TSMC due to shortages). I can take a financial fab hit and eat your wafers all day for 5B a year (Intel just made 5.9B this Q NET INCOME, AMD can't do that for a year). It's not illegal to buy what you don't need.
I say that last line or two because Intel blew 4.1B+ a year for 5yrs on mobile (contra revenue...LOL) instead of fabs (that is what you get from a NON engineer running CEO), so we're talking Intel buying TSMC wafers today. Pat will fix it shortly (2023 I guess), but use 2022 for warfare at TSMC on AMD. You can count 2021 also I guess, as Intel GPUS use TSMC wafers also, so the wafer war already started. Force AMD to samsung for a worse process and laugh as watts go up, speeds come down etc. Leave TSMC AFTER you have made MORE fab space than you are buying from them to expand and then crush AMD with a flooded market and lower prices for awhile (no losses, just sold for less margin making selling AMD chips for INCOME very hard). Fast forward to their Mkap being under 10B again, and buy them since ARM puts out 2B units a year that are basically PC's and macs don't use your chips either soon. Nothing stopping Intel from buying AMD after toasting their value. FTC won't even blink at this point since many use their phones as PCs today, and again those macs will all be ARM shortly (no need for AMD FTC protection now).
If Pat plays this right, AMD is integrated into Intel soon or just killed and sold for IP at some point I guess. I'd rather see Intel buy them than kill them though. NV vs. Intel for years then and throw in apple on cpu/gpu too now (would they sell to others? or Macs only?). AMD can't win a fab war with Intel while TSMC is facing many higher bidders. TSMC's job is to take the largest check and they don't care who writes it. Maybe it's time for AMD to STOP wasting wafers on stupid consoles that make peanuts for ~500mm^2!
Stop making console chips and make HEDT/SERVER/GPU instead. When Intel is short silicon they move everything to server/hedt and tell celeron/pentium people (whatever the poor buy...LOL) to suck eggs. Ask Dell/HP/Lenovo how true that is. Why AMD still makes large chips that make $10-15 each is beyond me. It is LISA SU stupid. Bring back the Dark Mayor. He said KINGS before crap and they fired him 2011. Now making kings anyway (LOL), but making the crap too so can't make enough kings for NET INCOME. LOL. Dirk is laughing right now thinking about how much NET INCOME he'd be bringing in for AMD if he was still CEO. He wouldn't be pricing for SHARE either, he'd be pricing for NET INCOME.
At this point if AMD can't get pricing right to make money, I'd rather see an NV/ARM vs. INTEL/AMD war. Sure most of us would end up owning both, but I just think AMD can't move Intel hard enough. Look at the wafer fights, NV at samsung (now forced back to TSMC for much of it), Intel buying TSMC wafers etc. Intel has been beaten handily for 3yrs and AMD did NOTHING with it but gain some share they are now losing again. Lisa went for revenue records instead of NET INCOME records. She went for share instead of NET INCOME also. Very bad. Too late now, but this Q will be good. But after this report? Maybe one more good Q (or two? Servers coming up should help), but then the TSMC wafer stealing starts hurting and Intel's h2 chips hit for real damage. I think they'll kill that H2 chip as fast as the Q1 chips. Intel has more in the bag, as Anandtech found out. They asked for the next two chips from Intel to be 10% IPC at least for each. The response was, too late those are all done and baked, we are on others. Intel FAB issues do NOT mean engineers just took 3yrs off. Nope they kept bagging designs that can now be outed and killed like mad to blow past AMD. Expect chipsets to go the same route. New sockets will be needed for higher cores that Intel didn't expect to be using TODAY (or soonish...whatever). Buying an Intel board? Just buy the top chip that can go in it, as upgrades won't be any better than my dead 8700k's board was the day I bought it (no upgrades here, new board for 8c).
Yes, saw AMD's 1.7B+ Q this Q, but it's not real (1.3B was a one time tax effect)...See report for one timer tax deal (for the year too I guess which pushed them to 2.49B). But hey, they finally made a BILLION YEAR for net income...The only problem is, their stock price is for a Q report of 1.7B without that one time TAX help and for many Q's in a row that should be IN the bag already. NO surprise they lost $11 in the last month. You should have sold already if you read my posts :) Take that 1.3B tax deal out and PE is right back in scary range too. Just saying, Intel is the better bet for a while IMHO assuming they fail the GREAT RESET crap. If that happens everyone is broke (done on purpose), and probably nowhere good to hide your money, but Intel isn't bad even then (AMD however, OUCH). I'd say hide in Amazon/Fakebook/Twitter/Google but those could get all assets taken soon due to 2018 EO that trump basically invoked verbally in his Dec 3rd speech (does he have to sign it for miller to act or was verbal and DNI report enough?). We are in 2nd 45 days now where they determine how fraud etc was committed and who did it all. Then 30 more days to DECIDE what to do about those people (tribunals ending with firing squads for people), and also what to do about the companies that were involved ALSO (instagram and more in there too probably). The 2018 EO trump signed was specifically tailored to take assests and put traitors to death. IMHO we are just taking all the names down as they come out of the closet hating trump.
http://navarroreport.com
https://hereistheevidence.com
But, why believe the republican side?
https://time.com/5936036/secret-2020-election-campaign/
When you can read TIME magazine plainly telling you how they stole it, er, I mean how they "fortified the election" for you so Trump couldn't win it again. FYI the state of AZ SENATE is forcing an AUDIT of all machines AND votes. So it might be a bit, but AZ isn't going to quit until we get receipts (which they already said are lost...LOL - then REVOTE I guess?). You can only keep this fake president going for so long people. Biden didn't beat Obama (800+ counties won) or Trump (~2500 won) with only ~500 and ZERO interest or campaign. He in fact lost this in a massive landslide and with all the evidence out now for decades (see the links) on election fraud, I don't believe Obama won EITHER election. Trump beat Obama by 10M votes with triple the counties won. Biden beat Obama with 1/2 the counties he had? ROFL, only if you're retarded. The machines clearly won 2012 (trump pointed it out in 2012 tweet IIRC!), but I think they did 2008 also (machines have been here for AGES). My guess is since reps won EVERY house seat they had up for election 2020, they really won the house probably by 20 seats or more. I can't wait to REVOTE USA (not one state or county, the ENTIRE COUNTRY PAPER only) or just declare trump the victor shortly. You can't win the lottery 100 times in a day like Biden did...LOL. 29 states with these machines, the rest have another brand, same story, same scytl servers to report to etc. Still waiting to see what comes from the RAID on Gina Haspel's CIA facility in Germany (note she wasn't at trumps meeting a day after reporting it). Anyone want to wager a bet on who has them? ;) Already trying to cover up the guys that died there it seems (helicopter in egypt down with same casualties..hmmm.. Reported day after CIA attack reports? Odd?). For anyone not thinking there was fraud, just hand us the machines and the votes then. We can all count together like we were supposed to on Nov 3rd. What are you hiding them for? Why so afraid of a FORENSIC AUDIT? Why can't we even get the votes or machines yet in AZ? Again, what are you afraid of us seeing? Well, we all know why you hide stuff and Time Magazine pretty much says it all. I can't believe they put that out there. So brazen about it all. I'll be laughing if I get to see firing squads. Yeah, because traitors should be shot dead like the law says.
https://rumble.com/vdf4nn-james-clapper-interrogation-2.html
James Clapper telling it all. How long before we hear the rest of this interrogation? HOLY...He names everyone. Jeez, Judge Roberts pedo says clapper, Mike Pence also he said. It's clearly CLAPPER's voice. 8 minutes of WTH? We knew this was bad, but this explains why roberts has been voting against us since ~2013 (went to pedo island 2011/2012 or so?). He goes all into the island etc. This interview has to be hours considering many of trumps people sat for 10hrs+. What do you think he said for even 1hr with this 8mins being so freaking explosive. We knew they had something on roberts, but who knew so many pedos were in govt? Why would clapper lie after saying the exact opposite on TV hundreds or thousands of times? Wish we knew who did the interview. Anyone recognize voice? Clapper seems to be blaming others to some extent here but clearly stating WHOPPERS in the process (haspel probably singing now too no doubt). How many ways do they need to tell you they stole the election before you stop listening to fake news media? That is CLAPPER's voice. Either people start getting put to death (by law) or the USA is over. That said, with ammo out almost all over (guns too in places), I don't think the 80mil who got ripped off will go too much longer without using the bullets they bought for this year to fix this election if the law doesn't do it's job. I'm in a swing state, so this will likely suck soon. :( AZ is NOT going to let this go and others will follow once OUR evidence is out. We are getting the machines with another team to do the forensic AUDIT (not the team THEY chose for us, they're OUT now). The ~10hr hearing here was mind blowing with evidence. Comic reps actually had to have it explained to them that they had the POWER to subpoena the MACHINES...ROFL. Politicians are so dumb these days (probably bought degrees etc). Are we done yet? Everyone get there was FRAUD on a massive scale yet? Is anyone going to stop this before the bullets start flying? Which of course the "GREAT RESET" globalist Aholes would all love that as it would help them cover the RESET or all your assets...ROFL. Please start the TRIBUNALS, before my city becomes the wild, wild west shooting gallery. Remember when the GREAT RESET was a conspiracy theory? It's not now right? UK you listening? How long have you been trying to freaking BREXIT? You have the same problems! They fake brexited still, but how long will you all take it? You all up for CCP digital currency soon?? Am I preaching to the choir here? :) Time to get back to fixing a PC. Wasting time if you peruse those links and don't get this. I can type 60wpm so I guess not that much time wasted ;) USA worth it right? UK? BREXIT!
Edit: NVM, deleted. Way too much conspiracy nonsense to be worth starting an argument over.
Chill out dude, and fact check your statements.
wow man, from silicon to statehouse politics this is like building Navi 21 on 90nm process. (in-fact here we know intel is too big but AMD is too big for us to stop supporting them)
Well yes, I'm sure they are kicking themselves now over the lost opportunity cost of selling maybe another million CPUs.Quote:
Originally Posted by kompukare
But you can see how it can happen...
"How many 5000 series should we make?"
"Things are going well, double whatever quantity we initially sold last time. Should be enough."
TBH, I would't have wanted to be the one making that call.
Perhaps they can undervolt and underclock them to make a Switch competitor?Quote:
Hm, between 60% and 76% that would mean that, what, 16% or so of 4.5 million working parts are waiting to be dumped? Woudn't mind some of those for a monster APU build!
PS5 portable!Quote:
Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix
Would certainly be a waste if that guestimate is anywhere close to their figures as otherwise they'd be throwing away over 600,000 functional but not-clocking-high-enough dies. The characteristics for undervolted and underclocked might actually match those which couldn't reach the high clocks. Certainly for normal overclocking high leakage can mean high clocks whereas for this you'd want low leakage.
Well that's what I would do. They can't make a PS5 Mini with those chips, that's the PS4. They could knock out a couple of CPU and shader modules at the same time for even better harvesting rates, and it would still be overkill for a 1080p mobile panel.Quote:
Originally Posted by kompukare
Contracts are contracts I guess. I do still wonder whether the consoles actually come from AMD's allocation (I know we've spoken about this before). Either way, they're still competing for space at TSMC, it's just a curiosity. That 80% just seems... wrong? Leaving 20% for Ryzen CPU/APU, GPU, Threadripper, EPYC? They've surely increased shipments if anything, so unless AMD got 5x the wafer allocation overnight, I don't see where that 80% appeared from?
What i find incredible is that you read some (all?) of that text wall. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by watercooled
Or even that someone would take all that time to type it for that matter.
What can I say, I couldn't help myself! I only got a couple of paragraphs in and started picking but then after I posted I glanced further down and noticed how ridiculous it was so deleted the lot.