Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 16 of 17

Thread: TSMC moves to prevent drought affecting production

  1. #1
    HEXUS.admin
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    31,003
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked
    2,000 times in 706 posts

    TSMC moves to prevent drought affecting production

    Taiwan's central and southern reservoirs all currently stand at below 20 per cent capacity.
    Read more.

  2. #2
    Moosekateer CAT-THE-FIFTH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Not here
    Posts
    30,753
    Thanks
    3,570
    Thanked
    4,903 times in 3,789 posts
    • CAT-THE-FIFTH's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Less E-PEEN
      • CPU:
      • Massive E-PEEN
      • Memory:
      • RGB E-PEEN
      • Storage:
      • Not in any order
      • Graphics card(s):
      • EVEN BIGGER E-PEEN
      • PSU:
      • OVERSIZED
      • Case:
      • UNDERSIZED
      • Operating System:
      • DOS 6.22
      • Monitor(s):
      • NOT USUALLY ON....WHEN I POST
      • Internet:
      • FUNCTIONAL

    Re: TSMC moves to prevent drought affecting production

    Not so good for AMD if TSMC has problems!


    Those despicable Elk,stealing the pond weed!

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Wonderful Warwick!
    Posts
    3,661
    Thanks
    4
    Thanked
    161 times in 136 posts

    Re: TSMC moves to prevent drought affecting production

    Or Apple, Qualcomm, loads of others
    Old puter - still good enuff till I save some pennies!

  4. #4
    Registered+
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    53
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked
    8 times in 6 posts

    Re: TSMC moves to prevent drought affecting production

    Seems like Taiwan may not be the best place for it, the lower labour costs must be close to cancelled out by the environment there.

  5. #5
    Moosekateer CAT-THE-FIFTH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Not here
    Posts
    30,753
    Thanks
    3,570
    Thanked
    4,903 times in 3,789 posts
    • CAT-THE-FIFTH's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Less E-PEEN
      • CPU:
      • Massive E-PEEN
      • Memory:
      • RGB E-PEEN
      • Storage:
      • Not in any order
      • Graphics card(s):
      • EVEN BIGGER E-PEEN
      • PSU:
      • OVERSIZED
      • Case:
      • UNDERSIZED
      • Operating System:
      • DOS 6.22
      • Monitor(s):
      • NOT USUALLY ON....WHEN I POST
      • Internet:
      • FUNCTIONAL

    Re: TSMC moves to prevent drought affecting production

    Quote Originally Posted by 3dcandy View Post
    Or Apple, Qualcomm, loads of others
    Qualcomm and Nvidia have contracts with Samsung. Intel is going to also benefit too.


    Those despicable Elk,stealing the pond weed!

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    840
    Thanks
    15
    Thanked
    32 times in 29 posts
    • flearider's system
      • Motherboard:
      • asrock taichi x370
      • CPU:
      • ryzen 1700@4ghz
      • Memory:
      • 16gb gskill flare cl14 3200
      • Storage:
      • 500mb 850 evo + 1tb hd space
      • Graphics card(s):
      • gigabyte r9 290
      • PSU:
      • evga 850
      • Case:
      • LD PC-V8 ATX/HPTX Red 2xtripple 1xquad rads
      • Operating System:
      • win 7 ulti
      • Monitor(s):
      • toshiba 32"
      • Internet:
      • 65 d/30 up ee

    Re: TSMC moves to prevent drought affecting production

    as said they will just build a pipeline .. 2-3m won't break the bank of those company's .. it's just the time it will take to do ..
    What does it matter now if men believe or no?
    What is to come will come. And soon you too will stand aside,
    To murmur in pity that my words were true
    (Cassandra, in Agamemnon by Aeschylus)

    To see the wizard one must look behind the curtain ....

  7. #7
    I R Toff Pandi! TAKTAK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Vergon6
    Posts
    7,443
    Thanks
    542
    Thanked
    1,009 times in 745 posts
    • TAKTAK's system
      • Motherboard:
      • ASUS ROG STRIX B450-F GAMING
      • CPU:
      • Ryzen 7 3700X
      • Memory:
      • 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX 3200MHz
      • Storage:
      • 500GB Samsung 970 EVO
      • Graphics card(s):
      • 5700 XT 50th Anniversary
      • PSU:
      • Be Quiet SFX-L 600W
      • Case:
      • Lian Li PC-O11 Mini
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10
      • Monitor(s):
      • LG Ultrawide
      • Internet:
      • 200Mb FTTP

    Re: TSMC moves to prevent drought affecting production

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    Qualcomm and Nvidia have contracts with Samsung. Intel is going to also benefit too.
    That's, unfortunately, an oversimplification of potential impact. Having or using other fabs doesn't make you immune to the TSMC problems*

    As a solo example - Talking with a major NAND supplier this morning, who have many of their own fabs, they use TSMC for their controller production. Starts to become an issue if you have loads of NAND but no controllers

    It's no big secret anymore that we're already having to deal with severe supply issues from many of the big fabless companies as they attempt to shore up the automotive sector supplies. Those lower down the chain in the 1..10million pcs per annum camp are scrabbling for silicon and needing to spread onto other devices and suppliers to de-risk.


    Edit: *I say TSMC problems as if the current shortages are solely due to them, that is remiss of me. I meant TSMC problems in terms of this latest news.
    TSMC are at/near their usual production capacity, they just happen to be a very major player. There are many compounding aspects which lead in to the shortages, a primary kicker being pandemic impact on manufacturing last year and subsequent lack of spare capacity for 'catch-up' and fulfilling the pent-up demand.
    Last edited by TAKTAK; 25-02-2021 at 04:46 PM.
    Post Counts and Other Rewards, Rules, Folding@Home, Fans: Push vs Pull vs Push-Pull, Corsair PSU OEMs.

    Quote Originally Posted by razer121 View Post
    Would you like me to enter you? it would be my pleasure
    TAKTAK.co.uk

  8. #8
    Moosekateer CAT-THE-FIFTH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Not here
    Posts
    30,753
    Thanks
    3,570
    Thanked
    4,903 times in 3,789 posts
    • CAT-THE-FIFTH's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Less E-PEEN
      • CPU:
      • Massive E-PEEN
      • Memory:
      • RGB E-PEEN
      • Storage:
      • Not in any order
      • Graphics card(s):
      • EVEN BIGGER E-PEEN
      • PSU:
      • OVERSIZED
      • Case:
      • UNDERSIZED
      • Operating System:
      • DOS 6.22
      • Monitor(s):
      • NOT USUALLY ON....WHEN I POST
      • Internet:
      • FUNCTIONAL

    Re: TSMC moves to prevent drought affecting production

    Quote Originally Posted by TAKTAK View Post
    That's, unfortunately, an oversimplification of potential impact. Having or using other fabs doesn't make you immune to the TSMC problems
    Not really. Intel does not use TSMC for its current CPUs,so AMD is a screwed as Intel already has fewer supply issues with its CPUs right now,which makes them cheaper. Samsung and other companies also make NAND and memory products too,so any companies using them are going to be less affected. In fact a lot of stuff isn't produced on cutting edge nodes TSMC uses,and this is why GF is still in businesses.

    It also ignores the fact Qualcomm has decided to move over to Samsung too. Even those companies you are talking about are probably not using cutting edge nodes,so TSMC not being able to supply volume will probably mean they can step in.

    AMD has to also divert its supplies to agreed console contracts so it means first the GPU allocations then the CPU allocations are going to be affected. So the two companies worst affected by this are AMD and Apple who exclusively now make products at TSMC. The others will have "problems" but nowhere near as AMD and Apple will have.

    They can shift production to other companies - sadly AMD and Apple are a bit screwed longterm.

    Edit!!



    TSMC is the leading volume supplier of cutting edge nodes. But a lot of production of lagging edge nodes is done elsewhere. Samsung bought a ton of EUV machines to ramp up production of their cutting edge nodes,so TSMC misstepping is going to help Samsung longterm. Any business done on lagging edge nodes is now longterm going to sourced from other fabs who TSMC is in a less competitive position with.

    This is why companies which are reliant on cutting edge nodes and are using TSMC are the ones in bigger trouble this year. The biggest consumers of cutting edge nodes at TSMC are Apple and AMD.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 25-02-2021 at 05:01 PM.


    Those despicable Elk,stealing the pond weed!

  9. #9
    I R Toff Pandi! TAKTAK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Vergon6
    Posts
    7,443
    Thanks
    542
    Thanked
    1,009 times in 745 posts
    • TAKTAK's system
      • Motherboard:
      • ASUS ROG STRIX B450-F GAMING
      • CPU:
      • Ryzen 7 3700X
      • Memory:
      • 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX 3200MHz
      • Storage:
      • 500GB Samsung 970 EVO
      • Graphics card(s):
      • 5700 XT 50th Anniversary
      • PSU:
      • Be Quiet SFX-L 600W
      • Case:
      • Lian Li PC-O11 Mini
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10
      • Monitor(s):
      • LG Ultrawide
      • Internet:
      • 200Mb FTTP

    Re: TSMC moves to prevent drought affecting production

    I don't disagree that there is far less impact to production ability for Intel and the like from TSMC having issues.

    I more mean the potential knock on impact from tertiary parts required in the use/deployment of your product.
    e.g. It's all well and good having no supply constraints for an Intel CPU, but ultimately useless if you can't get hold of other parts of the system which you need. Same for NAND, without a controller or the host system being set up to manage it directly, the ability to get NAND isn't that helpful

    Edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    In fact a lot of stuff isn't produced on cutting edge nodes TSMC uses,and this is why GF is still in businesses.
    And why CSMC can exist without access to ASML's kit

    Edit2: A typo
    Last edited by TAKTAK; 25-02-2021 at 06:03 PM.
    Post Counts and Other Rewards, Rules, Folding@Home, Fans: Push vs Pull vs Push-Pull, Corsair PSU OEMs.

    Quote Originally Posted by razer121 View Post
    Would you like me to enter you? it would be my pleasure
    TAKTAK.co.uk

  10. #10
    Moosekateer CAT-THE-FIFTH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Not here
    Posts
    30,753
    Thanks
    3,570
    Thanked
    4,903 times in 3,789 posts
    • CAT-THE-FIFTH's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Less E-PEEN
      • CPU:
      • Massive E-PEEN
      • Memory:
      • RGB E-PEEN
      • Storage:
      • Not in any order
      • Graphics card(s):
      • EVEN BIGGER E-PEEN
      • PSU:
      • OVERSIZED
      • Case:
      • UNDERSIZED
      • Operating System:
      • DOS 6.22
      • Monitor(s):
      • NOT USUALLY ON....WHEN I POST
      • Internet:
      • FUNCTIONAL

    Re: TSMC moves to prevent drought affecting production

    Quote Originally Posted by TAKTAK View Post
    I don't disagree that there is far less impact to production ability for Intel and the like from TSMC having issues.

    I more mean the potential knock on impact from tertiary parts required in the use/deployment of your product.
    e.g. It's all well and good having no supply constraints for an Intel CPU, but ultimately useless if you can't get hold of other parts of the system which you need. Same for NAND, without a controller or the host system being set up to manage it directly, the ability to get NAND isn't that helpful
    I appreciate that,but as the table indicates TSMC is not the biggest fab in terms of actual sales volume. It shows you how much of the lagging node volume is supplied by others. TSMC probably makes far more money out of its cutting edge nodes.

    The thing is if you look at Intel,a lot of that production volume isn't just CPUs,its loads of everything else. For example look at some of the stuff GF produces(specialist 12NM nodes),which means stuff like microcontrollers,etc are far easier to move over from TSMC in many ways AFAIK. These don't need cutting edge nodes - its just that TSMC has clout to possibly offer better terms. Now it could mean extra costs shifting production elsewhere,and a lag because of this,but its doable.

    But is it so easy for Apple and AMD to move over most of their core line-up?? Samsung already has got Nvidia and Qualcomm investing massively in buying up available 8NM/7NM/5NM volume from them. Where does that leave Apple and AMD especially??

    Apple will no doubt get the most priority and they have 100s of billions of USD to make sure it happens,and AMD has literally agreed contracts with MS/Sony which they need to fulfill. So is there going to be any volume left for the rest of their products?? Also at what cost to the end user?

    If this drought continues for a longtime,AMD is going to get affected really badly.


    Those despicable Elk,stealing the pond weed!

  11. #11
    I R Toff Pandi! TAKTAK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Vergon6
    Posts
    7,443
    Thanks
    542
    Thanked
    1,009 times in 745 posts
    • TAKTAK's system
      • Motherboard:
      • ASUS ROG STRIX B450-F GAMING
      • CPU:
      • Ryzen 7 3700X
      • Memory:
      • 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX 3200MHz
      • Storage:
      • 500GB Samsung 970 EVO
      • Graphics card(s):
      • 5700 XT 50th Anniversary
      • PSU:
      • Be Quiet SFX-L 600W
      • Case:
      • Lian Li PC-O11 Mini
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10
      • Monitor(s):
      • LG Ultrawide
      • Internet:
      • 200Mb FTTP

    Re: TSMC moves to prevent drought affecting production

    Again, I don't disagree that a lot of volume production could move away from TSMC without issue (indeed, many semi cos are in the process of diversifying as we speak), but that all takes time and is a longer term solution. It doesn't resolve the short-term supply problems. (Far fewer semi cos have geodiversity on fab sourcing than would be ideal)*

    I don't know about you, but even getting a new supplier setup in our (consumer electronics design/manufacturer) system is painful and long-drawn out involving many goes around the legal pole with contracts and NDAs, I can only imagine it's orders of magnitude more difficult at the fab level when stipulating specifics on process and the like.

    --

    To your comment on AMD/Apple and where it leaves them - I think their best hope is that others move production out of TSMC medium to long-term which frees up capacity for their, some-what node-locked, products.
    It's a learning curve for Apple in terms of doing it themselves rather than letting ImgTech or Samsung deal with the nitty gritty. AMD should know better than putting all of their eggs in one basket, but if you're on the bleeding edge, who do you go to if not TSMC?

    Edit: *Which many companies got a taste of the impact of following several natural disasters which affected a few fabs years ago. Some places went dual source, others lumbered on regardless, once in a lifetime, right?

    Edit2: I miss having these sorts of conversations whilst sat in a pub
    Last edited by TAKTAK; 25-02-2021 at 05:34 PM.
    Post Counts and Other Rewards, Rules, Folding@Home, Fans: Push vs Pull vs Push-Pull, Corsair PSU OEMs.

    Quote Originally Posted by razer121 View Post
    Would you like me to enter you? it would be my pleasure
    TAKTAK.co.uk

  12. #12
    Moosekateer CAT-THE-FIFTH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Not here
    Posts
    30,753
    Thanks
    3,570
    Thanked
    4,903 times in 3,789 posts
    • CAT-THE-FIFTH's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Less E-PEEN
      • CPU:
      • Massive E-PEEN
      • Memory:
      • RGB E-PEEN
      • Storage:
      • Not in any order
      • Graphics card(s):
      • EVEN BIGGER E-PEEN
      • PSU:
      • OVERSIZED
      • Case:
      • UNDERSIZED
      • Operating System:
      • DOS 6.22
      • Monitor(s):
      • NOT USUALLY ON....WHEN I POST
      • Internet:
      • FUNCTIONAL

    Re: TSMC moves to prevent drought affecting production

    Well Nvidia and Qualcomm have mostly moved off TSMC now for their latest products,and Samsung has invested a lot of money into being the next best alternative. Also,look at the 2019 data!



    The leading fabs in terms of sales volume are Intel and Samsung. Now considering cutting edge nodes cost more per wafer,now you see how much of the volume on lagging end nodes is supplied by others. Now consider how small controllers are,then one has to question whether you "need" to be on TSMC for these kinds of things.

    It sounds like very poor planning.

    IIRC,isn't Intel even powering down some of its fabs?? Even if there is a lag,it does give chances for other fabs to be able to take up the needed volume,and its bad planning by a number of companies,by relying on TSMC for even lagging end nodes. Even GF has fabs in the US which have specialist nodes,which are designed for low power:
    https://www.anandtech.com/show/14905...r-improvements

    Being on cutting edge nodes is mostly required for density improvements,but it does not always reflect in massive power reductions especially for less complex systems(or reliability). Its why a lot of space systems rely on stuff made on relatively old tried and tested nodes.

    Biden has said he wants a review of the semi-conductor supply chains,and it makes sense for companies like Micron to look closer to home.

    Quote Originally Posted by TAKTAK View Post
    Edit:


    And why CSMC can exist without access to AMSL's kit
    A lot of military production is on ancient process nodes!

    Stuff like 130NM to 65NM!!

    Although the first hit for CSMC for me was:

    "Chipping Sodbury Motor Company".

    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 25-02-2021 at 05:48 PM.


    Those despicable Elk,stealing the pond weed!

  13. #13
    I R Toff Pandi! TAKTAK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Vergon6
    Posts
    7,443
    Thanks
    542
    Thanked
    1,009 times in 745 posts
    • TAKTAK's system
      • Motherboard:
      • ASUS ROG STRIX B450-F GAMING
      • CPU:
      • Ryzen 7 3700X
      • Memory:
      • 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX 3200MHz
      • Storage:
      • 500GB Samsung 970 EVO
      • Graphics card(s):
      • 5700 XT 50th Anniversary
      • PSU:
      • Be Quiet SFX-L 600W
      • Case:
      • Lian Li PC-O11 Mini
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10
      • Monitor(s):
      • LG Ultrawide
      • Internet:
      • 200Mb FTTP

    Re: TSMC moves to prevent drought affecting production

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    Now consider how small controllers are,then one has to question whether you "need" to be on TSMC for these kinds of things.

    It sounds like very poor planning.
    Bingo! Used to be convenient though

    Even if there is a lag,it does give chances for other fabs to be able to take up the needed volume,and its bad planning by a number of companies,by relying on TSMC for even lagging end nodes.
    I do wonder just how well Samsung will do out of it all and whether the increased margin will afford them the ability to over take TSMC in terms of process development. There's scope for them to eat even more of the market and become even more dominant.

    Biden has said he wants a review of the semi-conductor supply chains,and it makes sense for companies like Micron to look closer to home.
    If TSMC forges ahead in Arizona as a major site and others follow along with growth of all of the supportive industries it could be very interesting indeed. I mean, what reasonable size fabs currently remain in the US? TI, On Semi, Infineon, Intel, Microchip? How big are GF's US fabs?
    Post Counts and Other Rewards, Rules, Folding@Home, Fans: Push vs Pull vs Push-Pull, Corsair PSU OEMs.

    Quote Originally Posted by razer121 View Post
    Would you like me to enter you? it would be my pleasure
    TAKTAK.co.uk

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Wonderful Warwick!
    Posts
    3,661
    Thanks
    4
    Thanked
    161 times in 136 posts

    Re: TSMC moves to prevent drought affecting production

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 3dcandy View Post
    Or Apple, Qualcomm, loads of others
    Qualcomm and Nvidia have contracts with Samsung. Intel is going to also benefit too.
    As said it's the knock-on affect. Will make it difficult for many in different ways
    Old puter - still good enuff till I save some pennies!

  15. #15
    Moosekateer CAT-THE-FIFTH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Not here
    Posts
    30,753
    Thanks
    3,570
    Thanked
    4,903 times in 3,789 posts
    • CAT-THE-FIFTH's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Less E-PEEN
      • CPU:
      • Massive E-PEEN
      • Memory:
      • RGB E-PEEN
      • Storage:
      • Not in any order
      • Graphics card(s):
      • EVEN BIGGER E-PEEN
      • PSU:
      • OVERSIZED
      • Case:
      • UNDERSIZED
      • Operating System:
      • DOS 6.22
      • Monitor(s):
      • NOT USUALLY ON....WHEN I POST
      • Internet:
      • FUNCTIONAL

    Re: TSMC moves to prevent drought affecting production

    Quote Originally Posted by 3dcandy View Post
    As said it's the knock-on affect. Will make it difficult for many in different ways
    As I also said,TSMC isn't the major supplier of lagging edge nodes for the last few years in volume or even volume of sales. I even posted data to back it up. It affects AMD and Apple far more. Intel,Qualcomm and Nvidia are going to be less affected by this. The major fabs are actually Intel and Samsung.

    Even if there are shorter term effects its far easier to move over production of a small chip on a lagging edge node to another fab,than some relatively large monolithic chip,which needs the transistor density and power reductions to make it viable.

    People keep forgetting when they look at the Apple M1 or Zen2/Zen3 and compare it to Intel CPUs,part of their power consumption advantage is down to the node used.

    Intel also has managed to find ways to backport its 7NM/10NM designs to 14NM. One has to question whether Apple or AMD will be able to backport designs as effectively.

    Quote Originally Posted by TAKTAK View Post
    Bingo! Used to be convenient though
    It's even worse when you consider some of these fabs are in the US and Europe,so you could argue are "safer" and "more secure" due to proximity.


    Quote Originally Posted by TAKTAK View Post
    I do wonder just how well Samsung will do out of it all and whether the increased margin will afford them the ability to over take TSMC in terms of process development. There's scope for them to eat even more of the market and become even more dominant.



    If TSMC forges ahead in Arizona as a major site and others follow along with growth of all of the supportive industries it could be very interesting indeed. I mean, what reasonable size fabs currently remain in the US? TI, On Semi, Infineon, Intel, Microchip? How big are GF's US fabs?
    Even Intel might find it worthwhile to start fabbing more stuff for other companies. They certainly have enough lagging edge node volume!

    But also think outside of Samsung for example - it would give impetus for other fabs to also start investing in fabs too. Expanding tried and tested lagging edge nodes,is going to be much less of a risk than something which is more cutting edge.

    If anything this is also poor longterm planning from the Taiwanese government - if they want to be a tech leader,it would also need far more investment in things such as desalination plants,etc. Apparently Taiwan only has limited storage capacity(relative to its needs) for water.

    Edit!!

    List of fabs:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ication_plants

    The most advanced fabs in the US looked to be centred around 14NM and maybe Intel 10NM.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 25-02-2021 at 06:29 PM.


    Those despicable Elk,stealing the pond weed!

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    ATLANTIS
    Posts
    1,124
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked
    25 times in 23 posts

    Re: TSMC moves to prevent drought affecting production

    Biggest problem is "lets give shareholders the profits rather than lets use the profits to expand the business."

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •