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Thread: Purported Intel Xe-HPG graphics card pictured and detailed

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    Re: Purported Intel Xe-HPG graphics card pictured and detailed

    They are all budget brands, the prices is just driven sky high due to people think that mining is the road ahead...

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    Re: Purported Intel Xe-HPG graphics card pictured and detailed

    It is interesting seeing your views Cat as since Zen 3 and RDNA2 you have become quite disinterred by AMD because the positions have flipped between Intel and AMD.

    I don't think AMD will be too aggressive with margins and prices simply because they are still not a market leader, you can squeeze the prices a little (as seen with Ryzen 5k but also exasperated by pandemic shortages and the fact you drop a duce on the deck, someone will probably buy it because they need it asap) but if you do it too much without providing a performance buff behind it, you'll be boxing yourself into a corner.

    I can see AMD being reasonable with their price bumps versus their system capabilities for a while yet, maybe when they reach 20-40% share in server space they'll be a bit more Intel-like but we're a long way off that.

    AMD was able to successfully acquire Xilinx on their current upward trajectory but if they do too much Icarus level stuff, they'll get burnt badly and AMD knows this from the early radeon days.

    Lisa is not an idiot both in a customer sense or a business sense and there's been no evidence to the contrary on that yet.

    However on Intels side, there is definitely a dark horse that could potentially be re-emerging because I also saw Pat with his history at Intel during the times he was in positions of power and he was either part of or turned a blind eye to crippling AMD. Now he is in the position of absolute power and the new open fabrication they're looking at doing could be moving the game away from crippling AMD through MDF but instead through crippling their suppliers by forcing designers and vendors to use their fabs instead.

    Intel is not above quite happily blowing out your kneecaps halfway through a marathon but I think they've just gotten a lot better at masking it.

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    root Member DanceswithUnix's Avatar
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    Re: Purported Intel Xe-HPG graphics card pictured and detailed

    Quote Originally Posted by Tabbykatze View Post
    Intel is not above quite happily blowing out your kneecaps halfway through a marathon but I think they've just gotten a lot better at masking it.
    One of Intel's superpowers seemed to be playing chicken with the courts, maximising damage and then settling out of court so it didn't go to trial. But now they've been dragged through the courts and are officially a convicted monopolist. There must be only so many times you can get convicted of that

    ofc the old remedy put forwards was to split Intel up into a foundry company and a CPU division giving everyone access to Intel's superior fabs. Now that they are inferior fabs, that won't help. I do wonder if Intel's attempt to restart foundry sales is an attempt to head that off at the pass, though given how badly it went last time I doubt they will get many takers.

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    Re: Purported Intel Xe-HPG graphics card pictured and detailed

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    One of Intel's superpowers seemed to be playing chicken with the courts, maximising damage and then settling out of court so it didn't go to trial. But now they've been dragged through the courts and are officially a convicted monopolist. There must be only so many times you can get convicted of that

    ofc the old remedy put forwards was to split Intel up into a foundry company and a CPU division giving everyone access to Intel's superior fabs. Now that they are inferior fabs, that won't help. I do wonder if Intel's attempt to restart foundry sales is an attempt to head that off at the pass, though given how badly it went last time I doubt they will get many takers.
    Tbh, there's a point in time where you reach critical mass and you're too big and too much of a market leader to fail. For instance, with the leak of 500 million users' data in 2019, doing 4% of their total revenue will be a hit on their net income of 2019 (total: 21,082 mill, 843 mill fine, net income 7.34 billion) but barely even something worth considering for them.

    And then businesses of this size have the power and capacity to drag things out and for far longer than necessary because they abuse the way the system works. I mean, Intel finally go ordered to pay (still haven't paid fully iirc) in 2012 for a lawsuit bought against Intel in 2005! That means the money that AMD "may" receive will be nice to have but it didn't exactly help AMD when they were at their worst.

    Also don't forget Intel has been charged twice for antitrust lawsuits, the first in 1991 which gave AMD royalty free licensing to any Intel patents used in AMD x86 processors.

    Intel doesn't and won't care, really. The only way to hit them right where it hurts isn't in the money but in the sales. You have an antitrust lawsuit pending, your products are barred from sale in the US/EU except under special circumstances (military/government). You can bet bottom dollar Intel will speed that lawsuit through quickly because not only will they lose money not being able to sell but also when businesses need to purchase a new server or system, they can't so they rush for the alternative harming Intels future capability.

    But its unlikely to happen, sadly.

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    Re: Purported Intel Xe-HPG graphics card pictured and detailed

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    It's ideal market conditions to launch a new GPU, it would be hard not to succeed so if Intel mess this up they've only got themselves to blame.
    I would hardly say ideal. If they were producing the chips themselves, then yes, it would be a good opportunity. But as they say they are using a TSMC process, it seems unlikely. Therefore they are going to compete for production facilities with an unknown product.

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    Re: Purported Intel Xe-HPG graphics card pictured and detailed

    The issue is AMD has been here before. Before the Athlon 64 they were all about value for money,longterm platforms,etc(sound familar?). People forget the whole socket 754,QuadFX,etc motherboard moves. Then after that they jacked pricing up,split platforms,features,etc. That about turn from AMD happened very quickly and I just managed to stay with my Athlon XP long enough to not get caught out by it. Then AMD kind of stagnated with its pricing,until the Core and Core2 came along. If you read reports of the time AMD actually held back on 65NM and the Phenom,because the 90NM Athlons were quite profitable(at least that is what I remember,I might be wrong on the details).

    You saw that after Zen2. They started with trying to screwover 400 series users from using Zen3,then artificially locked out PCI-E 4.0 from 400 series motherboards(OEM ones worked),making sure 500 series motherboards won't work with Zen and Zen+ and then finally making their CPUs even more expensive core for core than Intel. Even Zen3 compatibility happened with the 400 series motherboards due to the huge backlash from consumers and OEMs. AMD delayed the B550,made the B450 the only Zen3 compatible Zen3 chipset,implied it would work to people who bought Zen2 and a B450 motherboard,and then said no it won't work. They even told their OEMs who got were promised it would work. MSI also didn't expect it either.

    Then the whole resizeable BAR thing - which was implied to need Zen3 and 500 series motherboards. Nvidia went and showed it works with Zen2,400 series motherboards,Intel CPUs,etc - see how SAM now apparently works with Zen2 and Zen+ now:
    https://www.kitguru.net/components/g...access-memory/

    Imagine if Nvidia hadn't showed their Resizeable BAR working with other CPUs? Would we be getting it on other CPUs?

    They even copied Intel and ditched CPU coolers for most of their SKUs. The one SKU which has a cooler,has the same crap cooler as their £100 CPUs. They also copied Intel with the Wraith Spire,and made the heatsink worse(they quietly removed the copper core),and replaced it with a noiser fan.

    The fact that AMD went to outcompeting Intel on per core price,showed that all their value for money marketing was more because they were behind. They want to be Intel,and they did that during the Athlon 64 era. Look at the last 2 years of things AMD did?? These sound much closer to what you would expect Intel or Nvidia would do?? People give AMD the pass because its the "underdog" but the issue its still another large tech company,who wants to be the rest. It clearly works for Intel and Nvidia as they making tons of money.

    With their GPUs they tried to price the RX5700XT above £400,closer to the RTX2070 but Nvidia made its moves beforehand. They essentially tried to replace the RX5700 with the cheaper to make RX5600XT,then kind of screwed over their board partners with the 5600XT last second BIOS changes. They said it was "jebaiting" when it was quite clear they forgotten Nvidia can drop prices too. Now with the RX6000 series,look how they positioned them?? The RX6000 series has better performance/watt but it has worse feature support,very poor RT support,etc but look at the pricing?? RX6700XT RRP made it poor value against the RTX3070 and RTX3060TI. RX6800 is only marginally faster than the RTX3070,but is priced halfway between a RTX3070 and an RTX3080,so as to not directly complete.

    Even when the market settles down - I suspect AMD/Nvidia will try to just put products which don't directly compete with each other. Its quite clear the RTX3000/RX6000 RRPs are just targetting the gaps in each other's ranges. So as much as we laugh at Intel and its misfortune we really need to have something reasonable to keep AMD/Nvidia on their toes.

    This is just the last 2 years or so. So now think if they further outcompete Intel and even beat Nvidia - just wait for the £300 Ryzen 3 7500X which is 6C/6T. But its faster in gaming than a 6C/12T Ryzen 5 5600X,so its all OK. People who defended the Ryzen 5 5600X pricing,can't see Intel did the same. They used the faster cores of newer generations to push higher core count CPUs right up the stack.

    So it wouldn't surprise if Intel can't push as many cores as AMD for the next few years,we will end up with 6C being the new 4C,and we won't see much core progression at under £300. Soon 6C will be the new 4C meme.

    The thing is Lisa Su isn't like previous AMD CEOs - the whole "we don't want to be perceived as a value brand" is because she is razor focussed on increasings margins,more than previous AMD CEOs.

    So basically its why people need Intel and Nvidia to be competitive - AMD will be quite happy to replace Intel and Nvidia in the premium pricing game,EVEN if they lose some sales. Apple basically showed the way forward - overall their smartphone/tablet marketshare have shown declines outside launch peaks,but they are making more per sale,so its evened out for them. This is because Wallstreet cares less about profits and more about margin increases each quarter. The return is more important than the physical numbers. Its why lower margin mainstream phones are now made by Chinese companies - not because it isn't profitable(Nokia made enough money doing this),it isn't profitable enough,and is more constrained in margin increase per quarter.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 12-04-2021 at 04:22 PM.

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    Re: Purported Intel Xe-HPG graphics card pictured and detailed

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    You saw that after Zen2. They started with trying to screwover 400 series users from using Zen3,then artificially locked out PCI-E 4.0 from 400 series motherboards(OEM ones worked),making sure 500 series motherboards won't work with Zen and Zen+ and then finally making their CPUs even more expensive core for core than Intel. Even Zen3 compatibility happened with the 400 series motherboards due to the huge backlash from consumers and OEMs. AMD delayed the B550,made the B450 the only Zen3 compatible Zen3 chipset,implied it would work to people who bought Zen2 and a B450 motherboard,and then said no it won't work. They even told their OEMs who got were promised it would work. MSI also didn't expect it either.
    AMD said 400 series wouldn't work with new zen, received a backlash, and then changed their mind. Intel said most of their 400 series wouldn't work with 11th gen, and it stuck

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    Re: Purported Intel Xe-HPG graphics card pictured and detailed

    Quote Originally Posted by Xlucine View Post
    AMD said 400 series wouldn't work with new zen, received a backlash, and then changed their mind. Intel said most of their 400 series wouldn't work with 11th gen, and it stuck
    With Intel it was limited to H410 and B460 due to older chipsets:
    https://hexus.net/tech/news/mainboar...t-rocket-lake/

    H470 and Z490 apparently will get updates. Everyone seems to berate Intel for its mixed messaging but AMD does get much more of a pass. I have been building enough AMD systems(or recommending then) over the last 15 years or so to see enough of some of the crap they also did.

    Also,I think you might want to re-read the old threads on AMD "not saying" it would not work:
    https://forums.hexus.net/pc-hardware...work-zen3.html
    https://forums.hexus.net/hexus-news/...r-zen-3-a.html

    They made certain statements at the Zen2 launch caliing out Intel and its socket strategy,a very vague chart(which was used in concert with that statement IIRC),and told MSI and Schenker it would work(and the latter pretty much said AMD told them,and were blindsided when AMD made the announcement). Then all the BIOS nonsense,which was shown to be well nonsense. Even the backtrack was more because they would have screwed over two OEMs,who put a lot of effort into AMD systems,and AMD can certainly afford to do it less than Intel who can thrown money everywhere!

    People always call out Intel,but stuff like socket 754,QuadFX,FM1 were dire. FM2/AM2/AM3 all needing + revisions even though AMD was vague about purported support until they were released. AMD CPU compatibility has been great historically,not so much the motherboard part(unless ASRock gets involved).
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 15-04-2021 at 03:36 AM.

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