While i don't disagree and think you're fairly accurate in your assessment it didn't used to be like that, in fact it was the polar opposite because Microsoft understood people who didn't know about computers would ask 'advanced' users for recommendations or help with fixing problems, it's one of the reasons the MCP program exists, people are more likely to recommend things they understand.Originally Posted by cheesemp
A lot of this debate is quite nicely summed up in a few posts.
1: Us advanced users are NOT the target of Windows 11 - if you're that way inclined Linux or "other" OS's are the way forward
2: The sheer amount of malware and issues means these security idea will only increase in likelihood to increase security, especially in a business sense for users
3: People in general aren't like us on Hexus. They can't be bothered with how something works, just that it does and is secure
Old puter - still good enuff till I save some pennies!
The main reason is the same as vertical tabs - when you have a widescreen, and especially when you have an ultrawidescreen...having it at the bottom just takes up precious vertical screen real estate - moving it to the side has less of an impact on what you can fill your screen with in general. This is more apparent than ever with the Win 11 taskbar given just how thick it is OOTB at least compared to the one in windows 10 - those extra few pixels make all the difference.
Glad you've not seen any bugs yetI have hit on more today with an explorer crash right clicking on the recycle bin, and some funky notification interactions but nothing major.
I do have more annoyances though mostly on the context menus - it's really not fun constantly going to "show more options" because they decided that we don't need the 3rd party hooks there anymore, resulting in extra clicks to do simple things. Again this is a move targeted at touch, and hopefully there is a config setting to default to the "more" view somewhere...not had time to look for it yet. If anyone finds answers to these things feel free to post them, would be grateful!
Oh, and the date in the taskbar is missing the zero's. So it reads "1/7/21" rather than "01/07/2021" which is a bit irksome (despite my region settings). I have sent some feedback in via feedback hub for all of this though
It's still a nice, if very iterative rather than "next generation", upgrade over 10 in general though!
I knew it, my mum always told me i was special, that i wasn't normal.
Again, I don't think this is aimed at us. Being a trusted platform does change the economics of what many consumers want to do.
I suspect the tpm requirement will semi go away, but for example I wouldn't expect to see 8K content on any PC that doesn't have a trusted path from source to display device. The film makers won't allow such near master quality material onto a platform that can be running a ripping program to intercept the data stream, they get jittery enough with 1080p. That means an audited program chain, encrypted video link, but to trust the programs being run are the audited ones you need an OS with a trust chain from boot. Consumers will want to be able to do that, most consumers will never go near a BIOS screen or care about TPM modules when the whole laptop is basically magic anyway.
There will be an element of the Microsoft store as well underlying this.
So MS have a dilemma: Windows 10 tried to bring everyone forwards onto a unified platform and was starting to gain traction, but if MS mandate a TPM then that leaves a bunch of people behind and fractures their user base.
It has always amused me that Microsoft pushed Windows as a unified platform vs a fractures Unix market. These days the Unix market is basically just Linux, and people tend to be quite up to date giving a far more unified platform than under Windows. For MS to fracture it again just as they seem to be pulling things together baffles me, so I suspect they will back down.
Yup - I can see why some do, but it's an early build, and for me it makes zero difference.The main reason is the same as vertical tabs - when you have a widescreen, and especially when you have an ultrawidescreen...having it at the bottom just takes up precious vertical screen real estate - moving it to the side has less of an impact on what you can fill your screen with in general. This is more apparent than ever with the Win 11 taskbar given just how thick it is OOTB at least compared to the one in windows 10 - those extra few pixels make all the difference.
Glad you've not seen any bugs yet
I do have more annoyances though mostly on the context menus - it's really not fun constantly going to "show more options" because they decided that we don't need the 3rd party hooks there anymore, resulting in extra clicks to do simple things. Again this is a move targeted at touch, and hopefully there is a config setting to default to the "more" view somewhere...not had time to look for it yet. If anyone finds answers to these things feel free to post them, would be grateful!
Oh, and the date in the taskbar is missing the zero's. So it reads "1/7/21" rather than "01/07/2021" which is a bit irksome (despite my region settings). I have sent some feedback in via feedback hub for all of this though
It's still a nice, if very iterative rather than "next generation", upgrade over 10 in general though!
It will settle down, it always does and someone will come along with a malware hack or 8 to move the taskbar anyhoo
Oh and still zero issues for me, though as mentioned I'm a tad annoyed about extra clicks with the hooks on right click moving but I guess it's not a deal breaker
Old puter - still good enuff till I save some pennies!
I also think (as read elsewhere) that someone who now wants to have total control over "their stuff" shouldn't run Windows anyway. If you run it because of legacy programs or need to run programs then the added security etc. is perfect for 99.9% of people, especially if on an enterprise or mission critical system. You can move to a linux distro of your choice and still be able to do most of the things you need. My systems here are starting to slowly migrate away from Windows anyway because of these reasons and that is deffo how I see it going in the future
Old puter - still good enuff till I save some pennies!
Yeah, I am not having a go at MS here, don't get me wrong
Annoying I have found they didn't actually fix HDR support yet eitherSDR content is still massively blown out when screen sharing/taking a screenshot/snip etc and you have to manually enable/disable, which now requires more clicks. Hopefully something they will address in a future build.
You may well be right about the views of film-makers, 8k and TPM but I would argue that that provides a good argument for giving users the choice on install. It is hardly beyond the witof developers to provide an option on install to enable/disable TPM and to provide an explanatory screen when the user selects 'disable' that states TPM is required for 8k ( or whatever) and that disabling it means the user will not be able to do ..... blah, blah, blah.
If enabled is the default, merely selecting 'custom install' and then opting to disable TPM rather implies a user that knows what they're doing, even without the warning screen, let alone with it. After all, they're certainly able to provide such a tick-box option for accepting licence terms of install won't occur at all.
As I said, by all means default to TPM active, but provide the option to disable and if that disables high-res 'protected' content .... so be it.
Also, I get the argument about "consumers" asking more experienced people for advice, and sure, there's still a lot of such consumers but my experience is that there's a lot less of those than there used to be. We're no longer in the days where nobody but 'computer geeks' knew anything about Windows. That might still be pretty true of Linux but I've been surprised in recent months about just how well a lot of people that I used to get regular "Heyeeeelllp" requests from now manage for themselves. A lot of consumers are way more knowledgeable than they used to be.
The "locked down Apple" model does make sense though, but I'd add that first, Apple have been locked down since day 1, and secondly, they're not as locked down as they were. But sure, there's that choice. It's not dissimilar to choosing between Synology and QNAP for a NAS - one offers more choice but at the cost of less simplicity. It has always been so.
Windows has always been coming from the perspective of personal computer, though, as has the Intel/AMD platform, despite IBM's best efforts to lock it down in the early days, both at hardware and OS levels.
I would also stress I haven't yet decided on my view on W11. I won't do that until at least the final feature set and system requirements for the released version are hardened up and I see what they are. I still have questions, like whether MS will try to slipstream "upgrading" to W11 or not, or make it an explicit uer choice, and if mandatory, how they handle hardware that simply won't run TPM .... other than making cleat that that also won't run 8k, etc.
Finally, I take the point about users not wanting to be forced into a 'locked down' film-maker-friendly version being forced to Linux. Indeed, I concluded pretty much that as a result of the W8 farce. I clearly remember pointing out that much of my anger tehn was precisely because I was being effectively forced to abandon the Windows platform I had been using since, oh, Windows 2 (though I mainly stuck with DOS until at least the 3.11/WfWG era). Because of both incompatible hardware and software I was forced into a blend of moving XP and W7 systems behind an air-gap, and leaving pretty much one Ubuntu system doing basic Office (OO, then Libre) stuff, migrating (very reluctantly) email from Eudora to Thunderbird (still not entirely settled on that, but I now used email about 1% of how much I used to. I only have W10 at all because my needs changed and I needed a very lightweight 'tablet' class machine, and ended up with a Surface Pro. Now being effectively retired, I have also effectively retired/reduced a lot of the things I used to need to do, or don't need to do them in quite the same way. So, a laptop and the Surface Pro can stay on W10 indefinitely, as far as I'm concerned and most of what I do on those could be air-gapped too, if need be.
I'm not really that bothered about whatever MS do, TBH. If TPM does prove to be a hard requirement, I won't go W11. If that means, either in 2025 at end-of-support, or this year if MS try to mandate compulsory W11 upgrades, then so be it. If W11 proves to be non-TPM, and if the other features are acceptable to me (and as I said, I haven't yet really looked as it's still up in the air) then I'll upgrade. If not, my W10 systems go off-net, and I use aLinux system and/or Android tablet (to be decided) for the few things that I need a system with internet for. That, basically, is posting here, a few emails and the odd Amazon order. I'm not actually, except for those, really that bothered about even having broadband. It wouldn't hurt me much to take that route.
But that is effectively having been forced into it by MS, albeit at the W8 point, not now. If it comes to "gooing Linux". I'm already prepared for that, and pretty much have, years ago.
A lesson learned from PeterB about dignity in adversity, so Peter, In Memorium, "Onwards and Upwards".
I mentioned this in an earlier post but options equals more testing, more support and more bugs. Ultimately this is how all commercial OSes are going. Look at Android - When it first released you could have multiple app stores, install what you like no warnings and root access while not easy could be enabled easily - The storage was also unencrypted. Now its all secure and even installing a single APK requires skipping several warnings. I think this is just the moment at the moment.
Also while I understand your comment about everyone understanding things better nowadays I'm not sure I'd agree. People just want to know their computer is secure - they don't really know what an OS is. Its just a windows PC, a Mac or Chromebook.
Yup this is about right. Nobody cares about small OS details they just want to install it and be done with it. I hardly know any real enthusiasts anymore who tinker with OS builds, or features or tweak things unless they have a Pi or something that really needs a concise setup. Server wise is all going VM, containers and docks and again people don't care. If it's to help secure the platform then I'm sure 99.9% don't give a stuff. It will be on pre-built business laptops that all have tpm2 enabled and use a vpn from their work to connect through to help security. heck I'm a volunteer and have to use their vpn, their software and abide by their rules all in the name of security and privacy for the clients. I know loads of NHS workers who are given a completely locked down laptop that you can't install anything else on for security. USB keys are frowned upon and they punish you if you go on the internet at all other than for NHS use
In fact many companies now supply chromebooks because they can handle security better
Old puter - still good enuff till I save some pennies!
I think we more or less agree, but are filtering a bit differently.
The Android point, about direction of travel, is well taken but I'd attribute most (maybe all) of the direction of that travel to much of the core of Android being taken over by Google, and their ulterior motives (i.e. control of usage). And that's what bothers me most about the direction MS are going, albeit rather more slowly and subtly, with what appears to be ever-increasing restrictions in the degree to which the system owner (i.e. for my hardware, me can choose how their system works.
Romoving the user control over the functioning of their systems goes against the entire ethos of 'personal' computer, whuich is after all, where MS started out, and the primary differentiuation from the Apple closed ethos.
As for people wanting to know their OS is "secure" ... to what degree is Android secure? Though, granted, in some ways more so now than earlier Googlified versions, at least in a far more granular control of permissions. But given the degree of intrusion from 'telemetry', be it Android or Windows, I'd say a lot of that security may be improving against external threats but is illusory against built-in threats.
Do people care? Some, no. Some, yes. And some both should and would if they understood more. But I do agree that a lot just want to turn it on, have it work, and do stuff. And that, of course, is the seductive obnoxiousness of the Google playbook.
A lesson learned from PeterB about dignity in adversity, so Peter, In Memorium, "Onwards and Upwards".
Apple do exactly this and used to just work but even that "pro" has all but disappeared now yet nobody seems to care...
And when exactly do you think Windows was open to tinkering and open? It never has been as far as I'm concerned
Last edited by 3dcandy; 03-07-2021 at 04:23 PM. Reason: added...
Old puter - still good enuff till I save some pennies!
Most people I know don't care about stuff like TPM2,or Bitlocker,etc. You could use it under Windows 10 but again a lot didn't care,because it adds an extra layer of faff to things. All they can see is perfectly fine laptops and desktops,which have worked fine with Windows 10,needing more faffing around to install Windows 11,and yet they don't see any benefit to it. Most PC users have no clue what a "TPM" is! In fact the idiotic requirements for Win11 have meant the only people I know who are interested in it are enthusiasts.
Its putting off a lot of less techy people IMHO. It wouldn't surprise some might just decide to use their Android/iOS based system instead. Its not like a modern tablet can't do a lot of basic stuff fine. MS has to be very careful here - if they start making Windows 11 more of a faff,with no real advantages over the competition,people will just move to alternate platforms. They could end up pushing more Android/iOS/Chome OS sales this way.
What many need to appreciate is older generation hardware is used in new OEM desktops and laptops,years after its fallen out of vogue with enthusiasts. There is a huge market for secondhand laptops. Nonsense like cutting out SKL/KL shows a lack of understanding on the part of MS,when these have been sold in new systems until relatively recently by OEMs worldwide. A lot of lower end Intel systems don't support TPM2 properly AFAIK,as it wasn't a strict requirement. AMD systems support fTPM2,but AMD is only in a minority of OEM systems.
My Dell Latitude business laptop has TPM2 support in hardware,but apparently because it is SKL/KL it won't work. Yet a slower Atom does?? WTF?? So at this point,I don't care about Windows 11,on the single system where I might think Bitlocker,etc might have a use.
People I know who are less interested in computers(and are not gamers or hardcore PC owners),don't care two hoots about Windows 11.Something like the latest iPhone or Galaxy smartphone is more interesting to most people. Average consumers are only going to care when they have to replace hardware which is faulty or too slow to do the job when it comes to PCs IMHO.
Why replace hardware which works perfectly well - we are on an enthusiast forum where people like to tinker with hardware and software.
Even when more clued up mates,say they have zero intention to junk perfectly working hardware just to get Windows 11,I can't see a lot of people bothering to upgrade until the hardware breaks or is too slow. Its even worse when so many businesses and government institutions have already migrated to Windows 10,so I can't see even more faffing around with Windows 11. There is no real reason,UNLESS,you are an enthusiast and want to get Directstorage,etc to really care about it.
IMHO,even myself an enthusiast unless Windows 11 PRO can enable me to disable the need to use Bitlocker and TPM2,its going to be a downgrade of an OS. Why?? Because things such as tweaking RAM,undervolting,etc do end up with BIOS resets during stability testing. Secure boot also makes it harder if you dual boot too.
What MS does not seem to understand - you can't just force change unless people can see real advantages to the change. Its why it took so many years for Windows 7 to get replaced by Windows 10,and why Windows Vista was a failure.People are more inclined to replace their smartphone quicker,because as a device it has more utility than their PC,ie,is portable,can be used as camera,etc.
Even amongst PC gamers who on average probably upgrade hardware quicker,and upgrade OSes quicker,many still use older hardware. That is why many popular titles will run on a potato,and have only lopped off 32 bit and Windows 7 support relatively recently.
I honestly don't see who this OS is for?? Its too much faffing around for less technical minded people,and has idiotic restrictions which put off more technically minded people.Its more like a quick cashgrab during a pandemic for MS OEM partners to try and sell more hardware.
It's also not helped by MS QC/QA going down the pan with Windows 10 updates,so you will probably have all those issues in the first year too with Windows 11.
Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 03-07-2021 at 06:11 PM.
MS doesn't seem to even look at its own branded systems:
https://www.extremetech.com/computin...for-windows-11
With the way they keep breaking Windows 10,and the fact they are oblivious to devices they still sell,is not a good sign IMHO. The restrictions show a lack of understanding of what hardware is actually still being sold. For a user nobody cares if a CPU is "old" if its sold in new systems in 2020/2021,because CPUs and GPUs are made for years. So if MS starts supporting its own hardware for less years than Apple,etc why should people bother buying a Surface branded product??Simply having TPM 2.0 support in your system does not appear to be sufficient to install Windows 11. Microsoft has confirmed to PCWorld that machines like the Surface Studio 2 ($3,499 and up) — which isn’t quite three years old and supports TPM 2.0 according to Microsoft’s own spec sheets — will not support Windows 11. This machine is ineligible to upgrade. You can still buy a Surface Studio 2 from Microsoft today.
1). TPM 2.0 support is required: There is no longer any mention being made of a “soft floor” for TPM 1.2. We do not know if such a floor is still under internal discussion or if Microsoft intends to stick to its guns on this one. Older systems that supported TPM 1.2 can sometimes upgrade to TPM 2.0 if your motherboard vendor released a UEFI update, but this will not help you if your chipset or CPU is unsupported. This brings us to our next point:
2). Limited official compatibility with older devices. Microsoft isn’t just limiting installation based on the presence or absence of TPM 2.0. The Surface Studio 2 is TPM 2.0-enabled, but uses a Core i7-7920HQ processor based on Kaby Lake. According to Microsoft’s support documents, no Intel CPU earlier than 8th Gen will support Windows 11. No first-generation Ryzen or earlier CPU is listed as compatible with Windows 11.
According to Microsoft executives, these restrictions are being enforced at the chipset level.
From Vista,Windows 8,the Windows 10 update problems,etc MS seems to increasingly finding ways to push both its non-technical and technical users to other platforms. Its pretty much an example of "too big to fail" thinking and design by commitee.
Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 03-07-2021 at 06:29 PM.
Not that kind of tinkering. I don't mean alter-source-code-and-recompile type tinkering.Tinkering 'open' in the sense of a vast array of 3rd party hardware, drivers and basically, open ecosystem, unlike Apple where they have done their level best to keep it closed, from day 1. I'm talking about "personal" computers where you can, and have almost always been able to, buy motherboards, processors etc and cook your own. That 'build from a kit' ethos, from the VERY early days, is what (to my direct knowledge) led to some of the UK's largest historic (some/all now defunct) OEM manufacturers, that started out pretty much as one man in a bedroom. That's the "personal" ethos, and in large part it was enabled by MS providing an OS open enough to facilitate that .... much to the irritation of IBM, back in the day, and despite IBMs best efforts to derail that ethos with PS/2, MCA, etc. Not that DOS was ever open in the Linux sense, but that it enabled that whole platform.
A lesson learned from PeterB about dignity in adversity, so Peter, In Memorium, "Onwards and Upwards".
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