Microsoft Windows 11 Insider Preview build now available

[DanceswithUnix]

Not that DOS was ever open in the Linux sense, but that it enabled that whole platform.

Nah, the platform was enabled by the ISA bus, and later the PCI bus. Much like the Raspberry Pi has a load of programming environments and hardware clones but they all share the same header pinout for expansion hats.

As a programmer, I always felt that DOS just got in the way. It was basically the bare minimum to launch a program and open some files, but after that you are on your own. Want serial comms? Write an interrupt driver. Want graphics? Write a graphics stack. DOS won't help, but try not to blow it up with a wrong call.

Compared to the OS/9 I was running on my Dragon 64 back in those days, DOS was laughable and frustrating. But hardware popularity forced me to sometimes target that platform despite it always taking three times longer to write code for than anything else (including bare metal hardware).

[Corky34]

MS doesn't seem to even look at its own branded systems:
https://www.extremetech.com/computin...for-windows-11

With the way they keep breaking Windows 10,and the fact they are oblivious to devices they still sell,is not a good sign IMHO. The restrictions show a lack of understanding of what hardware is actually still being sold. For a user nobody cares if a CPU is "old" if its sold in new systems in 2020/2021,because CPUs and GPUs are made for years. So if MS starts supporting its own hardware for less years than Apple,etc why should people bother buying a Surface branded product??

From Vista,Windows 8,the Windows 10 update problems,etc MS seems to increasingly finding ways to push both its non-technical and technical users to other platforms. Its pretty much an example of "too big to fail" thinking and design by commitee.

Microsoft's messaging on Windows 11 seems very confused, it doesn't exactly instil much confidence when they don't seem to know whether they're coming or going.

Something else i picked up, not sure how accurate or if it may change, but apparently they're also switching to major updates only being once a year for W11 instead of what was supposed to be twice for W10.

[Xlucine]

Microsoft's messaging on Windows 11 seems very confused, it doesn't exactly instil much confidence when they don't seem to know whether they're coming or going.

Something else i picked up, not sure how accurate or if it may change, but apparently they're also switching to major updates only being once a year for W11 instead of what was supposed to be twice for W10.

Once-yearly updates will make a lot of sysadmins happy - it means half the work to keep their systems on the latest update

[Saracen999]

Nah, the platform was enabled by the ISA bus, and later the PCI bus. Much like the Raspberry Pi has a load of programming environments and hardware clones but they all share the same header pinout for expansion hats.

As a programmer, I always felt that DOS just got in the way. It was basically the bare minimum to launch a program and open some files, but after that you are on your own. Want serial comms? Write an interrupt driver. Want graphics? Write a graphics stack. DOS won't help, but try not to blow it up with a wrong call.

Compared to the OS/9 I was running on my Dragon 64 back in those days, DOS was laughable and frustrating. But hardware popularity forced me to sometimes target that platform despite it always taking three times longer to write code for than anything else (including bare metal hardware).

Agreed that it wasn't only DOS, and about ISA (and yeah, in due course PCI) and I take the point about DOS getting in the way from a programmer's perspective, but despite that being what I was in those very early days, my point (and perspective) is a bit different. I was in a pre- and post-sale support role for a major manufacturer's financial systems division at exactly the time they were moving such systems from proprietary hardware to "PC-based" systems, to the point that I spent fair chunk of time seconded to the US manufacturing plant to pick up some of the knowledge we'd need to support bolting what was still heavily based on those proprietary systems to PCs, and then, more directly PC-based but custom peripherals. It was the "open" nature of the platform that, at an absolute minimum, facilitated that process and I'm not convinced it would have been possible at all under Apple. That process, of attaching all sorts of 3rd party hardware is what made the whole ethos of "personal" computer possible in the way that it was, and wasd certainly why I, as a consumer who'd also been an Apple owner since the late '70s, switched from Apple to PC. Yeah, ISA was what allowed such a variety of hardware to be plugged in (with relatively small and simple drivers) but it was the vast array of choice in software that attracted me. For any given task, from defragging a drive to a full WP/Spreadsheet (or later, Office) capability, the range of choice (and, usually, price) on PC was simply much better meaning I could pick and choose according to my criteria, and budget. Even those areas where Apple had a natural lead (like DTP) were rapidly dwarfed by the size of the PC market, and it was the relatively open nature of the whole platform that did that.

I'm certainly not suggesting that DOS was the best platform, technically. Heaven's forfend, no. BUT .... it was what sold systems, and what enabled a "PC" to be anything from the Amstrad 1512/1640 end of the market, to the £10,000 state-of-the-art system I ended up with, replete with whopping ( ) 150MB tape backup, and 330MB ESDI (then SCSI) hard drives. Those hard drives were £1500 on their own, but the Amstrad machines ....? It was that open ethos that let so many competitors into the market, and despite the (in many ways) technical superiority of Apple, and certainly the far easier to support nature of their closed system, it was PCs that took the mass market by storm, and DOS, then Windows, was a large part of it. So was the fact that DOS wsn't the sole choice. I had OS/2, NT3 and 4, and Netware, to name a few. But how many of those survived the test of time? DOS was far from the best OS, but for oh-so-many, it was the best choice, not least because of the vast array of both hardware and software available, and at a broad spread of price points.

I might have had a justification for a high-priced PC, not to mention about £3k+ of accounts fortware alone, but most home users would not, and would be at the Amstrad end, and even many small business users would be migrating from the likes of Sirius to PC systems from an Elonex, or Viglen, or Mesh, etc.

That's what I meant by the "open ethos".

[3dcandy]

MS doesn't seem to even look at its own branded systems:
https://www.extremetech.com/computin...for-windows-11



With the way they keep breaking Windows 10,and the fact they are oblivious to devices they still sell,is not a good sign IMHO. The restrictions show a lack of understanding of what hardware is actually still being sold. For a user nobody cares if a CPU is "old" if its sold in new systems in 2020/2021,because CPUs and GPUs are made for years. So if MS starts supporting its own hardware for less years than Apple,etc why should people bother buying a Surface branded product??

From Vista,Windows 8,the Windows 10 update problems,etc MS seems to increasingly finding ways to push both its non-technical and technical users to other platforms. Its pretty much an example of "too big to fail" thinking and design by commitee.

I don't think so - OSX has shown that consumers care little about stuff breaking - I mean they are now basically saying that a year old system that DOESN'T have Apple silicon will be obsolete pretty quickly as people switch their attention.
Win 10 will be around in droves until 2025. Most people will have changed their hardware by then to support Win 11 if they need to, if they don't then that's up to them. You are effectively being given 4 years notice to decide if you wish to stay with Windows or move at a cost to you in time or money or whatever. I don't think that's unreasonable whatsoever. You can decide to go Linux for example and realistically have 4 years to sort out the transition. The Windows side of things doesn't make massive amounts of money for Microsoft anymore compared to services so we could perhaps even see windows losing it's majority market share to linux on the desktop

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Microsoft's messaging on Windows 11 seems very confused, it doesn't exactly instil much confidence when they don't seem to know whether they're coming or going.

Something else i picked up, not sure how accurate or if it may change, but apparently they're also switching to major updates only being once a year for W11 instead of what was supposed to be twice for W10.

MS are again doing another Vista and 8. Instead of listening to their customers,its more design by committee.

I don't think so - OSX has shown that consumers care little about stuff breaking - I mean they are now basically saying that a year old system that DOESN'T have Apple silicon will be obsolete pretty quickly as people switch their attention.
Win 10 will be around in droves until 2025. Most people will have changed their hardware by then to support Win 11 if they need to, if they don't then that's up to them. You are effectively being given 4 years notice to decide if you wish to stay with Windows or move at a cost to you in time or money or whatever. I don't think that's unreasonable whatsoever. You can decide to go Linux for example and realistically have 4 years to sort out the transition. The Windows side of things doesn't make massive amounts of money for Microsoft anymore compared to services so we could perhaps even see windows losing it's majority market share to linux on the desktop

It's mostly hardware enthusiasts on forums who are OK with the stupid requirements. Literally every casual user I know of Windows 10 never used Bitlocker(let alone heard off it),and NEVER will fiddle around with BIOS settings,etc. Why?? Bitlocker just makes things more of a faff,so they CBA. They also made it harder for users to fix issues in Windows 10,ie,its less user friendly for casual users now by burying basic settings. MS overestimate their market's ability for change.

MS again are doing what they did with Vista and 8,ie,design by committee. They have no clue even about the fact not even present Microsoft hardware works with Windows 10. Apple ATM,does not make silly mistakes like that - OS X supports both the last generation X86 Macs and the newer ARM based ones. Even my mates ancient iPhone 5S had software support until recently.

If anything its mostly casual and non-technical users I see who are put off by all these requirements. Just look at what happened to Vista and Windows 8?? They were failures. Hardware enthusiasts on forums lapped these up - but it took until Windows 7 for casual users and businesses to care.

You are making one big assumption - people need to stay on Windows and we are hardware enthusiasts and gamers,ie,the minority most likely to fiddle around,and update to the newest Windows version. Even amongst my group of mates,ie,a mix of people who are casual computer users,and more advanced users(programmers,etc),it was only me and one or two of my hardware enthusiast mates/hardcore gamers who went quickly from XP to Vista to 7 to 8 to 10,etc.

Windows Vista and 8 were failures because a lot of casual users(plus more advanced non-enthusiast users) were put off by them in way or another. I didn't need to read any articles to tell me they were failures - I could just see what people around me thought about them from casual to more advanced users.

The fact is,what you need to appreciate if MS makes things more of a faff,and at the same time annoys more advanced users,who is Windows for?? PCMR gamers?? Most Windows users are not gamers. Most Windows users don't edit 8K videos,and need an 8 core PC.If anything there are more gamers using consoles,and iOS/Android devices. Advanced users can use Linux. MS needs to differentiate its product and its why Windows is still successful. But if they don't why do you need to stay on Windows??

ARM based devices are getting more and more powerful. So that means if anything people will have less need to stay on Windows,ie,its iOS/Android/Chrome OS which are going to take a lot of share. Instead of buying that Windows PC,they will just use their phone and tablet instead.

This is why MS is in no position to start using more of its rubbish design by commitee nonsense anymore,and listen to its customers. Its been increasingly not doing this,and like Intel, the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing! They got lucky with Vista and 8 because,there was no real alternative for casual users. Now there is.

Another issue is the relatively short lifespan of Windows 10. Businesses/governments expect long support lifespans from Windows.However many businesses/governments,so many have just managed to wean themselves off Windows 7. So within a few years now it is Windows 11,with even worse hardware requirements?? Windows 10 will have support for a total of only 10 years,and only 4 years after a new OS is introduced?? That is far shorter than XP or 7. Its a disaster. 7 has extended support until 2023/2024. That might mean more places also decided to move towards Linux or other alternatives.

Hence,it is why I said "too big to fall" because its the same symptoms we saw with Intel.

[3dcandy]

It's mostly hardware enthusiasts on forums who are OK with the stupid requirements. Literally every casual user I know of Windows 10 never used Bitlocker(let alone heard off it),and NEVER will fiddle around with BIOS settings,etc. Why?? Bitlocker just makes things more of a faff,so they CBA. MS overestimate their market's ability for change.

If anything its mostly casual and non-technical users I see who are put off by all these requirements. Just look at what happened to Vista and Windows 8?? They were failures. Hardware enthusiasts on forums lapped these up - but it took until Windows 7 for casual users and businesses to care.

You are making one big assumption - people need to stay on Windows and we are hardware enthusiasts and gamers,ie,the minority most likely to fiddle around,and update to the newest Windows version. Even amongst my group of mates,ie,a mix of people who are casual computer users,and more advanced users(programmers,etc),it was only me and some of my hardware enthusiast mates/hardcore gamers who went quickly from XP to Vista to 7 to 8 to 10,etc. Windows Vista and 8 were failures because a lot of casual users(plus more advanced non-enthusiast users) were put off by them in way or another.


The fact is,what you need to appreciate if MS makes things more of a faff,and at the same time annoys more advanced users,who is Windows for?? Most Windows users are not gamers. Most Windows users don't edit 8K videos,and need an 8C PC.If anything there are more gamers using consoles,and iOS/Android devices. MS needs to differentiate its product and its why Windows is still successful. But if they don't why do you need to stay on Windows??

ARM based devices are getting more and more powerful. So that means if anything people will have less need to stay on Windows,ie,its iOS/Android/Chrome OS which are going to take a lot of share. Instead of buying that Windows PC,they will just use their phone and tablet instead.

Where am I assuming anything? I'm not at all.... that bit at the end where I say Linux could become the dominant desktop OS for example?

You are assuming a lot too - gaming on a pc is disappearing fast because of graphics card shortages etc. (I know plenty of my gamer mates losing interest because again a console just works) and yes other os choices are gaining traction. But all it will take is for the requirement to be enabled by default in new enterprise and business systems (and I have checked and EVERY laptop I have that is less than 4 years old meets the requirements by default as they are aimed at businesses) and nobody will notice or even know. They will buy a system and it will be Win 11 and work. There is 4 years to make that happen - that's a lifetime in this business. I seriously doubt Microsoft care if people like us lose interest, they are interested in higher hardware requirements meaning less support calls simples. My wife just started a job, her work laptop is totally locked down and she cannot do anything. Everyone else I know during the pandemic got a fully locked down Windows system to work from home with. We are NOT the target audience any longer - like we haven't been with OSX for years

[3dcandy]

oh and just to add that our local council has just announced that it is banning other OS's other than Win 10 from being used by council employees to do council work on....so the graphics design department that they have just kitted out with Macbooks will be forced to change in 6 months... that includes the loads of ipads they bought a few years back and everything else....

The reasoning - less support staff needed, everybody can swap files etc. and any issues can be sorted quickly. And the contract to supply the items has gone to HP so everyone is expected to be on a HP supplied Win 10 machine by the end of 2021 - and if you don't then they expect you to leave

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I see Windows 11 being the point many casual users,realise Windows isn't worth the faff,and iOS/Android/ChromeOS will do the job. Also looking around the world,many businesses/governments have only recently moved off Windows 7.

As I said before:

Another issue is the relatively short lifespan of Windows 10. Businesses/governments expect long support lifespans from Windows.However many businesses/governments,so many have just managed to wean themselves off Windows 7. So within a few years now it is Windows 11,with even worse hardware requirements?? Windows 10 will have support for a total of only 10 years,and only 4 years after a new OS is introduced?? That is far shorter than XP or 7. Its a disaster. 7 has extended support until 2023/2024. That might mean more places also decided to move towards Linux or other alternatives.

Remember what happened to Vista and 8?? It was mostly casual users who didn't like it. I see the same reaction from casual users upon hearing all this faff about Windows 11. The reality is you seem to think its enthusiasts who are more put off - its mostly casual users who I hear don't seem that inspired by what they are hearing about Windows 11.

Things like TPM2 nonsense,needing Bitlocker is making people question whether Windows 11 will even work properly. What you need to appreciate,if a ton of casual users decide to upgrade their current machines to Windows 11,because the pop-up comes up,then it won't install properly or has issues,casual users get put off. Its what happened with Vista and 8. Word by mouth views of these OSes by casual users was poor.

Just because we all have the latest hardware,etc does not mean OEMs are even selling the latest hardware,or have proper support. So that means a lot of relatively new hardware won't properly support it. TPM2.0 is not mandated on a lot of systems even now,so I can see a lot of maintream laptops having problems. AMD is OK more than Intel because of fTPM2.0,but a lot of cheaper Intel systems won't have it,especially as SKL/KL is still sold in many countries now.

Most enthusiasts will go but,but you only need to XYZ - that is beyond what most people want to do.

Then it won't matter if Windows 11 is sold in 2025 exclusively,it will have such a negative view of it from casual users,they will stick with 10. Then when that Windows 10 PC goes south,they will get something else. This is why you need to stop thinking Windows has some magical hold over casual users. It doesn't.

It has more of a hold over enthusiasts like us - as I said it was mostly the enthusiasts mates of mine(and me),and people on tech forums like this,who went onto Vista and 8. Yet,in the realworld they had such poor mindshare,many casual users stuck with 7,and so did many businesses and governments. Plus with Windows 10 having such a short support lifespan,I can see more places now assessing whether they should stay with Windows. 4 years more is terrible by MS standards. This comes with Google and Samsung trying to increase Enterprise support for Android to 4/5 years.

Apple already supports iOS for around 6/7 years.

MS trying to make Windows 11 more of a faff to upgrade,and reduce its supported lifespan to make more money,is going to impact on its mindshare. So they are basically taking away more and more of the unique MO, Windows has for both ends of the spectrum. It happened with Vista,it happened with 8,and it will happen with 11 unless they change tact.

[kalniel]

I don't think many casual users will be upgrading from 10 to 11. If the computer decides they can and it happens in the background then great, but for the most part it'll just be like the other devices they're used to and new ones will come with 11 while old ones will be stuck with 10. And most people are fine with that I expect.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I don't think many casual users will be upgrading from 10 to 11. If the computer decides they can and it happens in the background then great, but for the most part it'll just be like the other devices they're used to and new ones will come with 11 while old ones will be stuck with 10. And most people are fine with that I expect.

One of the reasons I saw which screwed over Vista and 8,was the fact Windows update suggested the upgrade. People clicked on it,and it wouldn't complete or was a terrible experience. The actual CPU requirements are also trash too - it can't run on a 4C Zen CPU or 4C SKL/KL laptop,but an Atom?? The Atom is not going to have a great user experience in comparison,especially as many Atom based systems still use eMMC!

Soon once Windows 11 comes out,it will be suggested by Windows Update. Then it will fail because of the TPM2.0 requirement or something will screw up. Then what will happen casual users will just get a negative view of Windows 11 when their new PC can't run it,either because the OEM cheaped out,or you need fiddling with the BIOS. That is also assuming OEMs deliver any required firmware updates in an easy manner.

Then they will tell their mates its not worth it and so on. This is what happened with Vista and 8. The issue is MS just didn't work with OEMs - they know very well TPM2.0 isn't really supported that well,especially as many AMD/Intel CPUs are made for years and sold by OEMs,despite newer ones being released,and MS didn't enforce TPM2.0 as a requirement for newer Windows 10 PCs,only TPM1.2 IIRC.

The issue with this,especially with the shorter lifespan of Windows 10,compared to Windows 7 and XP I can see many people looking at other OSes. Examples being iOS/Android/ChromeOS devices especially as ARM based SOCs are getting more powerful and now Google/Samsung/Qualcomm are trying to extend the support lifespan. MS needs to be weary of its moves to reduce support lifespan,as its competitors are going the other way. It reduces one of the selling points for Windows.

I have a recent Samsung Galaxy Tab and it will do all the media stuff I want(watch YT,etc),web browsing,send e-mails,do light image editing and with a keyboard some word processing. It can integrate with the TV,etc. Its much easier to use,and get to settings for a casual user than Windows 10.

Windows 10 repeatedly changing stuff,and breaking stuff has had the opposite effect IMHO. It makes people consider other alternatives. I think this is why Mac sales are increasing now.

I see an increasing number of less techy casual users just ditching the Windows PC and using their non-Windows smartphone/tablet/laptop. I can see people just ditching Windows now because MS is just flailing around randomly doing stuff. Its more advanced users and PC gamers which Windows might have a holdover,not casual users. They are the ones who most likely will upgrade to get Windows 11 working IMHO.

After all Windows has much lower actual OS share than Android/iOS.

[Corky34]

....and I have checked and EVERY laptop I have that is less than 4 years old meets the requirements by default as they are aimed at businesses) and nobody will notice or even know.

But from what i understand Microsoft's own Surface 2, that you can still but today, doesn't.

IIRC LTT mentioned in this weeks podcast that people could go out and buy a product from Microsoft where the warranty will last longer than the support for the OS it comes with. I'm not expecting they'll stick with these daft requirements come launch as i suspect they either don't know if they're coming or going, or they're simply using a nudge strategy where they publish requirements they know people are going to object to only to lessen them later to rapturous applauses.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

But from what i understand Microsoft's own Surface 2, that you can still but today, doesn't.

IIRC LTT mentioned in this weeks podcast that people could go out and buy a product from Microsoft where the warranty will last longer than the support for the OS it comes with. I'm not expecting they'll stick with these daft requirements come launch as i suspect they either don't know if they're coming or going, or they're simply using a nudge strategy where they publish requirements they know people are going to object to only to lessen them later to rapturous applauses.

This video summarises it well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrH4zEBmztc



Also,never thought about the E-waste aspect too!!

Edit!!

The same channel also explains why the cutoff point seems very arbitrary even WRT to security features:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwsYGGiUVVM

It also questions whether even buying a MS device makes much sense now. If they sell devices now which can't run Windows 11,what happens if you buy a Surface which can run Windows 11 - will it run Windows 12??

It feeds back into my argument,if MS wants to make support worse,why do you need a Windows device?? Surely with iOS,Android and Chrome OS trying to push longer support,those are an option too??

[kalniel]

One of the reasons I saw which screwed over Vista and 8,was the fact Windows update suggested the upgrade. People clicked on it,and it wouldn't complete or was a terrible experience. The actual CPU requirements are also trash too - it can't run on a 4C Zen CPU or 4C SKL/KL laptop,but an Atom?? The Atom is not going to have a great user experience in comparison,especially as many Atom based systems still use eMMC!

Soon once Windows 11 comes out,it will be suggested by Windows Update. Then it will fail because of the TPM2.0 requirement or something will screw up. Then what will happen casual users will just get a negative view of Windows 11 when their new PC can't run it,either because the OEM cheaped out,or you need fiddling with the BIOS. That is also assuming OEMs deliver any required firmware updates in an easy manner.

That's where I think MS have learned and it won't be like that. We've already seen with feature updates for win10 that MS won't even tell you an update is available until it's pretty sure you'll be able to install it without a problem (they invested a lot in ML for precisely this reason). If there's any doubt your setup can run win11 I don't think it'll be offered automatically.

The issue with this,especially with the shorter lifespan of Windows 10,compared to Windows 7 and XP I can see many people looking at other OSes. Examples being iOS/Android/ChromeOS devices especially as ARM based SOCs are getting more powerful and now Google/Samsung/Qualcomm are trying to extend the support lifespan. MS needs to be weary of its moves to reduce support lifespan,as its competitors are going the other way. It reduces one of the selling points for Windows.

I think MS are still fine - Mac and Android change version every year and device support can be as little as one year only.

But I agree about the move to Android - we were already past the point where most people are expected to have a home computer - the pandemic and home working have slightly given it a boost in the arm (pun intended) but I can see most home computing/remove stuff moving to Android eventually as well.

[Saracen999]

....

It also questions whether even buying a MS device makes much sense now. If they sell devices now which can't run Windows 11,what happens if you buy a Surface which can run Windows 11 - will it run Windows 12??

....

Install Ubuntu on it if it won't run W12 (or even W11). It'll do well on a Surface Pro. Simplez.