Read more.Quote:
Meanwhile, the compatibility test app has been withdrawn, and CPU specs revised.
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Meanwhile, the compatibility test app has been withdrawn, and CPU specs revised.
Got up this morning and I now have Win 11 Pro!
And....it's weird ;)
It's OK for those with new fangled PCs...Quote:
Originally Posted by 3dcandy
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E4_l5IBV...g&name=900x900
source thread: https://twitter.com/hanawa_hinata/st...23158487093254
Actually looking forward to getting windows 11 hopefully better than 10. October is a long time to wait though.
I don't think it's that modern ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by mtysonIt's OK for those with new fangled PCs...Quote:
Originally Posted by 3dcandy
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E4_l5IBV...g&name=900x900
source thread: https://twitter.com/hanawa_hinata/st...23158487093254
https://www.flickr.com/photos/3dcand.../in/datetaken/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/3dcand.../in/datetaken/
;)
I'd give it a try, but my newest spare hardware is a slightly flaky FX-6350 board so I guess I'm out unless they drop the CPU requirements again.
Honestly, I feel like I'm being dumber than a box of frogs but for love nor money can I find just a download for the Windows 11 ISO, I'm only being shown Windows 10 builds.
Not entirely - you do still need TPM enabled or it won't install it....I found it was disabled in my bios and got an error initially, but after enabling in the bios it allowed me to download. Will be installing shortly!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hexus
I think you have to get it via the insider program - so within windows, rather than as a clean install...currently anyway. I can't find a Windows 11 ISO on my MSDN sub either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabbykatze
No ISO available, and as said on the windows insider.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spud1
CPU requirements are a dual core 1ghz cpu?Quote:
Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix
To be fair now I've had a play it's perfectly fine. Haven't even bothered moving task bar. Multi monitor setups are handled much better (about time), no problems with any software or hardware at all
I don't know why Skylake isn't on the list?
You can download the windows 10 Dev iso from https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/soft...iderpreviewiso and then run windows update. You don't need to login once the OS is installed you just need to check for updates in settings and let it install. After restart you will have windows 11. I tested this in a VM last night.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabbykatze
If you want to upgrade using a current installed windows 10 setting flight to dev and then checking for updates should give the same result.
Thanks, will give that a go!Quote:
Originally Posted by lodore
Bit annoying I can't just ISO it but it is what it is!
The FX isn't on the list of supported AMD processors though. Depends on whether that is enforced or just a recommendation.Quote:
Originally Posted by 3dcandy
My 12 X 4 GHZ threadripper with 64 Gb RAM are not able to run the damn thing, at least thats what microsofts software tell me,,,,,, it dont say why.
You don't have a TPM chip, enable fTPM in your UEFI BIOS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentle Viking
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentle Viking
1000 series threadrippers weren't initially on the support list, which the tool goes off, but as this article says, that's now been withdrawn so don't base anything on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabbykatze
vHow's it running so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by lodore
I bet the preview or whatever this weeks edition is called might require that, but I can't see it being forced. Can't see tpm being forced either apart from certain editions either. Also from todays work it's actually faster than the previous build of Win 10, but a lot of that is simply because it handles multi-monitor betterQuote:
Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix
TPM and secure boot are just not needed for home use, it's just a con to make 70%+ of users buy new hardware.
If you believe the home editions will force those requirements then I despairQuote:
Originally Posted by Rubarb
No crashes or bugs so far. I wasn't expecting control panel to still exist but it does currently. So far appears to just be UI changes. IE executable still exists but just launches edge instead like they are planning with windows 10 next year. I am wondering if they will remove some more legacy features in windows 11. I am still surprised about the CPU support. I can't really see any reason so far for only supporting Intel Gen 8 and above.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kovoet
I've been running it all day so far, initial comments:
- Needed a few restarts to get it going - very slow and "crashy" at first - but since then, its been rock solid and pretty fast
- New animations are nice - it feels like going back to Aero and how pretty that was, but with hardware that can be performant too :)
- I'm getting used to having the central task bar - it does make sense on an ultrawide, but i'm having to retrain my brain to now look to the bottom left. Means less head movement though!
- New application groups & VDesktop functions are nice - really nice improvement. I like having a "work button" that I can press to launch outlook, teams and onenote in the correct layout for my screen.
- Auto HDR and the ability to set an SDR brightness with HDR enabled is *really* nice
- Oh and I do really like the new notification sounds. Maybe strange to say but definitely more "modern" sounding.
Bad things so far?
- The new settings app is still rather buggy - I get way too many flickering options and parts of the menus don't work first time...but hey its dev
- I really dislike the new spacing they have on by default - this is all to make Windows more touch friendly so I get it...but on a non-touch screen they should default to what's now the "compact" layout. Oh and they still group your downloads folder by date by default - SO annoying.
- The fact you cannot move the taskbar to the side of top is as annoying as you'd expect
- I find it odd I can't right click the taskbar to open task manager anymore - keyboard shortcuts still work fine, but its just an annoyance
That's all so far, I guess the best thing I can say is that I was still able to work all day with it (after the first few reboots I mentioned) and its been fine.
This does feel like another iterative update thought - it doesn't feel worthy of the "Windows 11" title to me...yet.
Windows 8 was released in 2012 and any devices that shipped with it required UEFI and secure boot so this shouldn't be too much of a concern. TPM is a different story. I have recently given my Haswell pc to my parents. this has UEFI and secure boot. it also has a TPM header on the motherboard. the biggest issue is the cpu support which will cause more issues. I see no reason why a 4770k can't run windows 11.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubarb
Even if it would install, i am sure this new version ( too ) also just mean more stuff for me to disable and tweak.
Take me about a half hour to tweak win 10 to where i can live with it, and delete silly bloatware ASO
Really you would think windows would just be what is needed, and then you could select what ever you want too, but ooooo no thats not how it is.
Push stuff down peoples throat and take note when they hurl.
I do think my X399 Aorus extreme have that TPM thing just not enabled as default,,,,,, i dont look as much in BIOS as i use to do when i was doing OC.
Anyways i do think this can roll with win 10 until it is upgrade time again, then i might feel brave enough to attempt this new Microsoft drug they cram down peoples throat.
No bugs whatsoever for me. Nowt nada, no flickering no crashes and is quite a bit faster than Win 10 generallyQuote:
Originally Posted by Spud1
Taskbar right click brings up settings - this is for touch enabled devices I'm guessing. If it brings more devices the touch friendly benefits I'm all for it - it is 2021 after all
Again - I see no reason to move the taskbar, maybe it's me but I NEVER move it, I just don't see the point
Based on an article I read, TPM and Secure Boot aren't without use in home settings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubarb
Why?
Secure Boot prevents the UEFI boot sequence being compromised, and the TPM is used for what's called "measured boot".
Measure boot is used to validate known hashes against boot time values, if they don't match, something has changed or been compromised.
Both of which, combined with other software technologies already in existence, help protect the PC from malware.
Is it a good or reasonable requirement for the OS? Given that reportedly a TPM wont be required in certain countries, like Russia and China, it would seem like it should be a choice for upgrading users, or even off altogether.
Whilst people installing a clean OS, or buying a new off the shelf system, can have everything enabled from the off, since it doesn't require changes to an already installed OS.
During installation, ask me if I'd like such a thing. Or, perhaps tell me how strongly you recommend it, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by BobF64Based on an article I read, TPM and Secure Boot aren't without use in home settings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubarb
Why?
Secure Boot prevents the UEFI boot sequence being compromised, and the TPM is used for what's called "measured boot".
Measure boot is used to validate known hashes against boot time values, if they don't match, something has changed or been compromised.
Both of which, combined with other software technologies already in existence, help protect the PC from malware.
Is it a good or reasonable requirement for the OS? Given that reportedly a TPM wont be required in certain countries, like Russia and China, it would seem like it should be a choice for upgrading users, or even off altogether.
Whilst people installing a clean OS, or buying a new off the shelf system, can have everything enabled from the off, since it doesn't require changes to an already installed OS.
If you want to dual boot your system, Secure Boot is sometimes an absolute pig and just needs turning off.
Microsoft wouldn't want people experimenting with Linux, would they? The horror!
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by philehidiot
That has been my gripe since the days of the W8 Start menu farce, and applies with bells on to when/if certain upgrades are applied. My position has always been ask first. however, I grant that lots of intimidating (for inexperienced users) questions isn't ideal, so,offer default or custom installation and let experienced users decide for themselves to disable default install options. Less desirable but still a workable option is to let people that know what they want turned off turn it off, or better yet, not install in the first place, but at least, disable/unistall.
Good examples would be Cortana, ObeDrive and even MS Office trial. I do not want the first two under any circumstances, and switched to Libre several years ago so don't want Office installed in any form, since uninstall never gets rid of it all.
A 'custom' option (of a full install) would let me decide what I do or don't want, including things I have no intention of ever using, like Cortana or OneDrive. Yet, not only is Cortana (for instance) installed whether I want it or not, but the Uninstall option is greyed out.
TPM is yet another example of Nanny MS deciding it knows best what I need on my machine. No, MS, you don't. You really don't.
So if you feel the need to handhold inexperienced users .... okay. Fair enough. Not a bad idiea. But do the rest of us the courtesy of deciding for ourselves if we want such things, be it TPM or that Cortana garbage, installed or not on our own hardware.
If you advise and default to running with TPM, for instance, and for my own reasons i decide not to, on my head be it. But it's my machine, my risk and damn well doesn't need to be your mandate as to whether I need it or not. And if this sounds like I still resent MS over the W8 business and haven't forgiven them, that would be correct. More accurately than not having forgiven them, though, would be that I no longer trust them, which is why I'm prepared, if need be, to not go to W11 at all. If MS try to force it, like standard upgrades, well, I took steps to move my more mission critical stuff onto Linux or air-gapped W7 systems years ago, and can easily do the same with W10 machines rather than go W11, if need be. That lack of trust means I saw you coming, this time, MS.
I still think a lot of you miss the way consumer/enterprise OS's have been moving recently. With ChromeOS, MacOS, Android and iOS secure boot and hardening is standard. Windows has and always will be a consumer/enterprise OS. People just expect stuff to just work and be secure by default so this is the way Microsoft are moving. If you want full control you're just going to have to use Linux. It kind of sucks but thats the way the world is moving - blame Apple and all the ransomware. (I know it would be nice if some of this stuff was optional but Apple have shown the benefits of a locked down, no options environment. Its also easier to lock down and test. Advanced users like us are not the target market.).
Perfectly put, this is exactly how I feel about windows, great post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saracen999Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by philehidiot
That has been my gripe since the days of the W8 Start menu farce, and applies with bells on to when/if certain upgrades are applied. My position has always been ask first. however, I grant that lots of intimidating (for inexperienced users) questions isn't ideal, so,offer default or custom installation and let experienced users decide for themselves to disable default install options. Less desirable but still a workable option is to let people that know what they want turned off turn it off, or better yet, not install in the first place, but at least, disable/unistall.
Good examples would be Cortana, ObeDrive and even MS Office trial. I do not want the first two under any circumstances, and switched to Libre several years ago so don't want Office installed in any form, since uninstall never gets rid of it all.
A 'custom' option (of a full install) would let me decide what I do or don't want, including things I have no intention of ever using, like Cortana or OneDrive. Yet, not only is Cortana (for instance) installed whether I want it or not, but the Uninstall option is greyed out.
TPM is yet another example of Nanny MS deciding it knows best what I need on my machine. No, MS, you don't. You really don't.
So if you feel the need to handhold inexperienced users .... okay. Fair enough. Not a bad idiea. But do the rest of us the courtesy of deciding for ourselves if we want such things, be it TPM or that Cortana garbage, installed or not on our own hardware.
If you advise and default to running with TPM, for instance, and for my own reasons i decide not to, on my head be it. But it's my machine, my risk and damn well doesn't need to be your mandate as to whether I need it or not. And if this sounds like I still resent MS over the W8 business and haven't forgiven them, that would be correct. More accurately than not having forgiven them, though, would be that I no longer trust them, which is why I'm prepared, if need be, to not go to W11 at all. If MS try to force it, like standard upgrades, well, I took steps to move my more mission critical stuff onto Linux or air-gapped W7 systems years ago, and can easily do the same with W10 machines rather than go W11, if need be. That lack of trust means I saw you coming, this time, MS.
While i don't disagree and think you're fairly accurate in your assessment it didn't used to be like that, in fact it was the polar opposite because Microsoft understood people who didn't know about computers would ask 'advanced' users for recommendations or help with fixing problems, it's one of the reasons the MCP program exists, people are more likely to recommend things they understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesemp
A lot of this debate is quite nicely summed up in a few posts.
1: Us advanced users are NOT the target of Windows 11 - if you're that way inclined Linux or "other" OS's are the way forward
2: The sheer amount of malware and issues means these security idea will only increase in likelihood to increase security, especially in a business sense for users
3: People in general aren't like us on Hexus. They can't be bothered with how something works, just that it does and is secure
The main reason is the same as vertical tabs - when you have a widescreen, and especially when you have an ultrawidescreen...having it at the bottom just takes up precious vertical screen real estate - moving it to the side has less of an impact on what you can fill your screen with in general. This is more apparent than ever with the Win 11 taskbar given just how thick it is OOTB at least compared to the one in windows 10 - those extra few pixels make all the difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by 3dcandy
Glad you've not seen any bugs yet :) I have hit on more today with an explorer crash right clicking on the recycle bin, and some funky notification interactions but nothing major.
I do have more annoyances though mostly on the context menus - it's really not fun constantly going to "show more options" because they decided that we don't need the 3rd party hooks there anymore, resulting in extra clicks to do simple things. Again this is a move targeted at touch, and hopefully there is a config setting to default to the "more" view somewhere...not had time to look for it yet. If anyone finds answers to these things feel free to post them, would be grateful! :)
Oh, and the date in the taskbar is missing the zero's. So it reads "1/7/21" rather than "01/07/2021" which is a bit irksome (despite my region settings). I have sent some feedback in via feedback hub for all of this though :)
It's still a nice, if very iterative rather than "next generation", upgrade over 10 in general though!
I knew it, my mum always told me i was special, that i wasn't normal. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by 3dcandy
Again, I don't think this is aimed at us. Being a trusted platform does change the economics of what many consumers want to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saracen999
I suspect the tpm requirement will semi go away, but for example I wouldn't expect to see 8K content on any PC that doesn't have a trusted path from source to display device. The film makers won't allow such near master quality material onto a platform that can be running a ripping program to intercept the data stream, they get jittery enough with 1080p. That means an audited program chain, encrypted video link, but to trust the programs being run are the audited ones you need an OS with a trust chain from boot. Consumers will want to be able to do that, most consumers will never go near a BIOS screen or care about TPM modules when the whole laptop is basically magic anyway.
There will be an element of the Microsoft store as well underlying this.
So MS have a dilemma: Windows 10 tried to bring everyone forwards onto a unified platform and was starting to gain traction, but if MS mandate a TPM then that leaves a bunch of people behind and fractures their user base.
It has always amused me that Microsoft pushed Windows as a unified platform vs a fractures Unix market. These days the Unix market is basically just Linux, and people tend to be quite up to date giving a far more unified platform than under Windows. For MS to fracture it again just as they seem to be pulling things together baffles me, so I suspect they will back down.
Yup - I can see why some do, but it's an early build, and for me it makes zero difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spud1
It will settle down, it always does and someone will come along with a malware hack or 8 to move the taskbar anyhoo
Oh and still zero issues for me, though as mentioned I'm a tad annoyed about extra clicks with the hooks on right click moving but I guess it's not a deal breaker
I also think (as read elsewhere) that someone who now wants to have total control over "their stuff" shouldn't run Windows anyway. If you run it because of legacy programs or need to run programs then the added security etc. is perfect for 99.9% of people, especially if on an enterprise or mission critical system. You can move to a linux distro of your choice and still be able to do most of the things you need. My systems here are starting to slowly migrate away from Windows anyway because of these reasons and that is deffo how I see it going in the future
Yeah, I am not having a go at MS here, don't get me wrong :) It's an early build of windows and tbh it's much more stable than Windows 10 was at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by 3dcandy
Annoying I have found they didn't actually fix HDR support yet either :( SDR content is still massively blown out when screen sharing/taking a screenshot/snip etc and you have to manually enable/disable, which now requires more clicks. Hopefully something they will address in a future build.
You may well be right about the views of film-makers, 8k and TPM but I would argue that that provides a good argument for giving users the choice on install. It is hardly beyond the witof developers to provide an option on install to enable/disable TPM and to provide an explanatory screen when the user selects 'disable' that states TPM is required for 8k ( or whatever) and that disabling it means the user will not be able to do ..... blah, blah, blah.Quote:
Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix
If enabled is the default, merely selecting 'custom install' and then opting to disable TPM rather implies a user that knows what they're doing, even without the warning screen, let alone with it. After all, they're certainly able to provide such a tick-box option for accepting licence terms of install won't occur at all.
As I said, by all means default to TPM active, but provide the option to disable and if that disables high-res 'protected' content .... so be it.
Also, I get the argument about "consumers" asking more experienced people for advice, and sure, there's still a lot of such consumers but my experience is that there's a lot less of those than there used to be. We're no longer in the days where nobody but 'computer geeks' knew anything about Windows. That might still be pretty true of Linux but I've been surprised in recent months about just how well a lot of people that I used to get regular "Heyeeeelllp" requests from now manage for themselves. A lot of consumers are way more knowledgeable than they used to be.
The "locked down Apple" model does make sense though, but I'd add that first, Apple have been locked down since day 1, and secondly, they're not as locked down as they were. But sure, there's that choice. It's not dissimilar to choosing between Synology and QNAP for a NAS - one offers more choice but at the cost of less simplicity. It has always been so.
Windows has always been coming from the perspective of personal computer, though, as has the Intel/AMD platform, despite IBM's best efforts to lock it down in the early days, both at hardware and OS levels.
I would also stress I haven't yet decided on my view on W11. I won't do that until at least the final feature set and system requirements for the released version are hardened up and I see what they are. I still have questions, like whether MS will try to slipstream "upgrading" to W11 or not, or make it an explicit uer choice, and if mandatory, how they handle hardware that simply won't run TPM .... other than making cleat that that also won't run 8k, etc.
Finally, I take the point about users not wanting to be forced into a 'locked down' film-maker-friendly version being forced to Linux. Indeed, I concluded pretty much that as a result of the W8 farce. I clearly remember pointing out that much of my anger tehn was precisely because I was being effectively forced to abandon the Windows platform I had been using since, oh, Windows 2 (though I mainly stuck with DOS until at least the 3.11/WfWG era). Because of both incompatible hardware and software I was forced into a blend of moving XP and W7 systems behind an air-gap, and leaving pretty much one Ubuntu system doing basic Office (OO, then Libre) stuff, migrating (very reluctantly) email from Eudora to Thunderbird (still not entirely settled on that, but I now used email about 1% of how much I used to. I only have W10 at all because my needs changed and I needed a very lightweight 'tablet' class machine, and ended up with a Surface Pro. Now being effectively retired, I have also effectively retired/reduced a lot of the things I used to need to do, or don't need to do them in quite the same way. So, a laptop and the Surface Pro can stay on W10 indefinitely, as far as I'm concerned and most of what I do on those could be air-gapped too, if need be.
I'm not really that bothered about whatever MS do, TBH. If TPM does prove to be a hard requirement, I won't go W11. If that means, either in 2025 at end-of-support, or this year if MS try to mandate compulsory W11 upgrades, then so be it. If W11 proves to be non-TPM, and if the other features are acceptable to me (and as I said, I haven't yet really looked as it's still up in the air) then I'll upgrade. If not, my W10 systems go off-net, and I use aLinux system and/or Android tablet (to be decided) for the few things that I need a system with internet for. That, basically, is posting here, a few emails and the odd Amazon order. I'm not actually, except for those, really that bothered about even having broadband. It wouldn't hurt me much to take that route.
But that is effectively having been forced into it by MS, albeit at the W8 point, not now. If it comes to "gooing Linux". I'm already prepared for that, and pretty much have, years ago.
I mentioned this in an earlier post but options equals more testing, more support and more bugs. Ultimately this is how all commercial OSes are going. Look at Android - When it first released you could have multiple app stores, install what you like no warnings and root access while not easy could be enabled easily - The storage was also unencrypted. Now its all secure and even installing a single APK requires skipping several warnings. I think this is just the moment at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saracen999
Also while I understand your comment about everyone understanding things better nowadays I'm not sure I'd agree. People just want to know their computer is secure - they don't really know what an OS is. Its just a windows PC, a Mac or Chromebook.
Yup this is about right. Nobody cares about small OS details they just want to install it and be done with it. I hardly know any real enthusiasts anymore who tinker with OS builds, or features or tweak things unless they have a Pi or something that really needs a concise setup. Server wise is all going VM, containers and docks and again people don't care. If it's to help secure the platform then I'm sure 99.9% don't give a stuff. It will be on pre-built business laptops that all have tpm2 enabled and use a vpn from their work to connect through to help security. heck I'm a volunteer and have to use their vpn, their software and abide by their rules all in the name of security and privacy for the clients. I know loads of NHS workers who are given a completely locked down laptop that you can't install anything else on for security. USB keys are frowned upon and they punish you if you go on the internet at all other than for NHS useQuote:
Originally Posted by cheesemp
In fact many companies now supply chromebooks because they can handle security better
I think we more or less agree, but are filtering a bit differently.Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesemp
The Android point, about direction of travel, is well taken but I'd attribute most (maybe all) of the direction of that travel to much of the core of Android being taken over by Google, and their ulterior motives (i.e. control of usage). And that's what bothers me most about the direction MS are going, albeit rather more slowly and subtly, with what appears to be ever-increasing restrictions in the degree to which the system owner (i.e. for my hardware, me can choose how their system works.
Romoving the user control over the functioning of their systems goes against the entire ethos of \'personal\' computer, whuich is after all, where MS started out, and the primary differentiuation from the Apple closed ethos.
As for people wanting to know their OS is "secure" ... to what degree is Android secure? Though, granted, in some ways more so now than earlier Googlified versions, at least in a far more granular control of permissions. But given the degree of intrusion from \'telemetry\', be it Android or Windows, I\'d say a lot of that security may be improving against external threats but is illusory against built-in threats.
Do people care? Some, no. Some, yes. And some both should and would if they understood more. But I do agree that a lot just want to turn it on, have it work, and do stuff. And that, of course, is the seductive obnoxiousness of the Google playbook.
Apple do exactly this and used to just work but even that "pro" has all but disappeared now yet nobody seems to care...Quote:
Originally Posted by Saracen999
And when exactly do you think Windows was open to tinkering and open? It never has been as far as I'm concerned
Most people I know don't care about stuff like TPM2,or Bitlocker,etc. You could use it under Windows 10 but again a lot didn't care,because it adds an extra layer of faff to things. All they can see is perfectly fine laptops and desktops,which have worked fine with Windows 10,needing more faffing around to install Windows 11,and yet they don't see any benefit to it. Most PC users have no clue what a "TPM" is! In fact the idiotic requirements for Win11 have meant the only people I know who are interested in it are enthusiasts.
Its putting off a lot of less techy people IMHO. It wouldn't surprise some might just decide to use their Android/iOS based system instead. Its not like a modern tablet can't do a lot of basic stuff fine. MS has to be very careful here - if they start making Windows 11 more of a faff,with no real advantages over the competition,people will just move to alternate platforms. They could end up pushing more Android/iOS/Chome OS sales this way.
What many need to appreciate is older generation hardware is used in new OEM desktops and laptops,years after its fallen out of vogue with enthusiasts. There is a huge market for secondhand laptops. Nonsense like cutting out SKL/KL shows a lack of understanding on the part of MS,when these have been sold in new systems until relatively recently by OEMs worldwide. A lot of lower end Intel systems don't support TPM2 properly AFAIK,as it wasn't a strict requirement. AMD systems support fTPM2,but AMD is only in a minority of OEM systems.
My Dell Latitude business laptop has TPM2 support in hardware,but apparently because it is SKL/KL it won't work. Yet a slower Atom does?? WTF?? So at this point,I don't care about Windows 11,on the single system where I might think Bitlocker,etc might have a use.
People I know who are less interested in computers(and are not gamers or hardcore PC owners),don't care two hoots about Windows 11.Something like the latest iPhone or Galaxy smartphone is more interesting to most people. Average consumers are only going to care when they have to replace hardware which is faulty or too slow to do the job when it comes to PCs IMHO.
Why replace hardware which works perfectly well - we are on an enthusiast forum where people like to tinker with hardware and software.
Even when more clued up mates,say they have zero intention to junk perfectly working hardware just to get Windows 11,I can't see a lot of people bothering to upgrade until the hardware breaks or is too slow. Its even worse when so many businesses and government institutions have already migrated to Windows 10,so I can't see even more faffing around with Windows 11. There is no real reason,UNLESS,you are an enthusiast and want to get Directstorage,etc to really care about it.
IMHO,even myself an enthusiast unless Windows 11 PRO can enable me to disable the need to use Bitlocker and TPM2,its going to be a downgrade of an OS. Why?? Because things such as tweaking RAM,undervolting,etc do end up with BIOS resets during stability testing. Secure boot also makes it harder if you dual boot too.
What MS does not seem to understand - you can't just force change unless people can see real advantages to the change. Its why it took so many years for Windows 7 to get replaced by Windows 10,and why Windows Vista was a failure.People are more inclined to replace their smartphone quicker,because as a device it has more utility than their PC,ie,is portable,can be used as camera,etc.
Even amongst PC gamers who on average probably upgrade hardware quicker,and upgrade OSes quicker,many still use older hardware. That is why many popular titles will run on a potato,and have only lopped off 32 bit and Windows 7 support relatively recently.
I honestly don't see who this OS is for?? Its too much faffing around for less technical minded people,and has idiotic restrictions which put off more technically minded people.Its more like a quick cashgrab during a pandemic for MS OEM partners to try and sell more hardware.
It's also not helped by MS QC/QA going down the pan with Windows 10 updates,so you will probably have all those issues in the first year too with Windows 11.
MS doesn't seem to even look at its own branded systems:
https://www.extremetech.com/computin...for-windows-11
With the way they keep breaking Windows 10,and the fact they are oblivious to devices they still sell,is not a good sign IMHO. The restrictions show a lack of understanding of what hardware is actually still being sold. For a user nobody cares if a CPU is "old" if its sold in new systems in 2020/2021,because CPUs and GPUs are made for years. So if MS starts supporting its own hardware for less years than Apple,etc why should people bother buying a Surface branded product??Quote:
Simply having TPM 2.0 support in your system does not appear to be sufficient to install Windows 11. Microsoft has confirmed to PCWorld that machines like the Surface Studio 2 ($3,499 and up) — which isn’t quite three years old and supports TPM 2.0 according to Microsoft’s own spec sheets — will not support Windows 11. This machine is ineligible to upgrade. You can still buy a Surface Studio 2 from Microsoft today.
1). TPM 2.0 support is required: There is no longer any mention being made of a “soft floor” for TPM 1.2. We do not know if such a floor is still under internal discussion or if Microsoft intends to stick to its guns on this one. Older systems that supported TPM 1.2 can sometimes upgrade to TPM 2.0 if your motherboard vendor released a UEFI update, but this will not help you if your chipset or CPU is unsupported. This brings us to our next point:
2). Limited official compatibility with older devices. Microsoft isn’t just limiting installation based on the presence or absence of TPM 2.0. The Surface Studio 2 is TPM 2.0-enabled, but uses a Core i7-7920HQ processor based on Kaby Lake. According to Microsoft’s support documents, no Intel CPU earlier than 8th Gen will support Windows 11. No first-generation Ryzen or earlier CPU is listed as compatible with Windows 11.
According to Microsoft executives, these restrictions are being enforced at the chipset level.
From Vista,Windows 8,the Windows 10 update problems,etc MS seems to increasingly finding ways to push both its non-technical and technical users to other platforms. Its pretty much an example of "too big to fail" thinking and design by commitee.
Not that kind of tinkering. I don't mean alter-source-code-and-recompile type tinkering.Tinkering 'open' in the sense of a vast array of 3rd party hardware, drivers and basically, open ecosystem, unlike Apple where they have done their level best to keep it closed, from day 1. I'm talking about "personal" computers where you can, and have almost always been able to, buy motherboards, processors etc and cook your own. That 'build from a kit' ethos, from the VERY early days, is what (to my direct knowledge) led to some of the UK's largest historic (some/all now defunct) OEM manufacturers, that started out pretty much as one man in a bedroom. That's the "personal" ethos, and in large part it was enabled by MS providing an OS open enough to facilitate that .... much to the irritation of IBM, back in the day, and despite IBMs best efforts to derail that ethos with PS/2, MCA, etc. Not that DOS was ever open in the Linux sense, but that it enabled that whole platform.Quote:
Originally Posted by 3dcandy
Nah, the platform was enabled by the ISA bus, and later the PCI bus. Much like the Raspberry Pi has a load of programming environments and hardware clones but they all share the same header pinout for expansion hats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saracen999
As a programmer, I always felt that DOS just got in the way. It was basically the bare minimum to launch a program and open some files, but after that you are on your own. Want serial comms? Write an interrupt driver. Want graphics? Write a graphics stack. DOS won't help, but try not to blow it up with a wrong call.
Compared to the OS/9 I was running on my Dragon 64 back in those days, DOS was laughable and frustrating. But hardware popularity forced me to sometimes target that platform despite it always taking three times longer to write code for than anything else (including bare metal hardware).
Microsoft's messaging on Windows 11 seems very confused, it doesn't exactly instil much confidence when they don't seem to know whether they're coming or going.Quote:
Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH
Something else i picked up, not sure how accurate or if it may change, but apparently they're also switching to major updates only being once a year for W11 instead of what was supposed to be twice for W10.
Once-yearly updates will make a lot of sysadmins happy - it means half the work to keep their systems on the latest updateQuote:
Originally Posted by Corky34
Agreed that it wasn't only DOS, and about ISA (and yeah, in due course PCI) and I take the point about DOS getting in the way from a programmer's perspective, but despite that being what I was in those very early days, my point (and perspective) is a bit different. I was in a pre- and post-sale support role for a major manufacturer's financial systems division at exactly the time they were moving such systems from proprietary hardware to "PC-based" systems, to the point that I spent fair chunk of time seconded to the US manufacturing plant to pick up some of the knowledge we'd need to support bolting what was still heavily based on those proprietary systems to PCs, and then, more directly PC-based but custom peripherals. It was the "open" nature of the platform that, at an absolute minimum, facilitated that process and I'm not convinced it would have been possible at all under Apple. That process, of attaching all sorts of 3rd party hardware is what made the whole ethos of "personal" computer possible in the way that it was, and wasd certainly why I, as a consumer who'd also been an Apple owner since the late '70s, switched from Apple to PC. Yeah, ISA was what allowed such a variety of hardware to be plugged in (with relatively small and simple drivers) but it was the vast array of choice in software that attracted me. For any given task, from defragging a drive to a full WP/Spreadsheet (or later, Office) capability, the range of choice (and, usually, price) on PC was simply much better meaning I could pick and choose according to my criteria, and budget. Even those areas where Apple had a natural lead (like DTP) were rapidly dwarfed by the size of the PC market, and it was the relatively open nature of the whole platform that did that.Quote:
Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix
I'm certainly not suggesting that DOS was the best platform, technically. Heaven's forfend, no. BUT .... it was what sold systems, and what enabled a "PC" to be anything from the Amstrad 1512/1640 end of the market, to the £10,000 state-of-the-art system I ended up with, replete with whopping ( ;) ) 150MB tape backup, and 330MB ESDI (then SCSI) hard drives. Those hard drives were £1500 on their own, but the Amstrad machines ....? It was that open ethos that let so many competitors into the market, and despite the (in many ways) technical superiority of Apple, and certainly the far easier to support nature of their closed system, it was PCs that took the mass market by storm, and DOS, then Windows, was a large part of it. So was the fact that DOS wsn't the sole choice. I had OS/2, NT3 and 4, and Netware, to name a few. But how many of those survived the test of time? DOS was far from the best OS, but for oh-so-many, it was the best choice, not least because of the vast array of both hardware and software available, and at a broad spread of price points.
I might have had a justification for a high-priced PC, not to mention about £3k+ of accounts fortware alone, but most home users would not, and would be at the Amstrad end, and even many small business users would be migrating from the likes of Sirius to PC systems from an Elonex, or Viglen, or Mesh, etc.
That's what I meant by the "open ethos".
I don't think so - OSX has shown that consumers care little about stuff breaking - I mean they are now basically saying that a year old system that DOESN'T have Apple silicon will be obsolete pretty quickly as people switch their attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH
Win 10 will be around in droves until 2025. Most people will have changed their hardware by then to support Win 11 if they need to, if they don't then that's up to them. You are effectively being given 4 years notice to decide if you wish to stay with Windows or move at a cost to you in time or money or whatever. I don't think that's unreasonable whatsoever. You can decide to go Linux for example and realistically have 4 years to sort out the transition. The Windows side of things doesn't make massive amounts of money for Microsoft anymore compared to services so we could perhaps even see windows losing it's majority market share to linux on the desktop
MS are again doing another Vista and 8. Instead of listening to their customers,its more design by committee.Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky34
It's mostly hardware enthusiasts on forums who are OK with the stupid requirements. Literally every casual user I know of Windows 10 never used Bitlocker(let alone heard off it),and NEVER will fiddle around with BIOS settings,etc. Why?? Bitlocker just makes things more of a faff,so they CBA. They also made it harder for users to fix issues in Windows 10,ie,its less user friendly for casual users now by burying basic settings. MS overestimate their market's ability for change.Quote:
Originally Posted by 3dcandy
MS again are doing what they did with Vista and 8,ie,design by committee. They have no clue even about the fact not even present Microsoft hardware works with Windows 10. Apple ATM,does not make silly mistakes like that - OS X supports both the last generation X86 Macs and the newer ARM based ones. Even my mates ancient iPhone 5S had software support until recently.
If anything its mostly casual and non-technical users I see who are put off by all these requirements. Just look at what happened to Vista and Windows 8?? They were failures. Hardware enthusiasts on forums lapped these up - but it took until Windows 7 for casual users and businesses to care.
You are making one big assumption - people need to stay on Windows and we are hardware enthusiasts and gamers,ie,the minority most likely to fiddle around,and update to the newest Windows version. Even amongst my group of mates,ie,a mix of people who are casual computer users,and more advanced users(programmers,etc),it was only me and one or two of my hardware enthusiast mates/hardcore gamers who went quickly from XP to Vista to 7 to 8 to 10,etc.
Windows Vista and 8 were failures because a lot of casual users(plus more advanced non-enthusiast users) were put off by them in way or another. I didn't need to read any articles to tell me they were failures - I could just see what people around me thought about them from casual to more advanced users.
The fact is,what you need to appreciate if MS makes things more of a faff,and at the same time annoys more advanced users,who is Windows for?? PCMR gamers?? Most Windows users are not gamers. Most Windows users don't edit 8K videos,and need an 8 core PC.If anything there are more gamers using consoles,and iOS/Android devices. Advanced users can use Linux. MS needs to differentiate its product and its why Windows is still successful. But if they don't why do you need to stay on Windows??
ARM based devices are getting more and more powerful. So that means if anything people will have less need to stay on Windows,ie,its iOS/Android/Chrome OS which are going to take a lot of share. Instead of buying that Windows PC,they will just use their phone and tablet instead.
This is why MS is in no position to start using more of its rubbish design by commitee nonsense anymore,and listen to its customers. Its been increasingly not doing this,and like Intel, the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing! They got lucky with Vista and 8 because,there was no real alternative for casual users. Now there is.
Another issue is the relatively short lifespan of Windows 10. Businesses/governments expect long support lifespans from Windows.However many businesses/governments,so many have just managed to wean themselves off Windows 7. So within a few years now it is Windows 11,with even worse hardware requirements?? Windows 10 will have support for a total of only 10 years,and only 4 years after a new OS is introduced?? That is far shorter than XP or 7. Its a disaster. 7 has extended support until 2023/2024. That might mean more places also decided to move towards Linux or other alternatives.
Hence,it is why I said "too big to fall" because its the same symptoms we saw with Intel.
Where am I assuming anything? I'm not at all.... that bit at the end where I say Linux could become the dominant desktop OS for example?Quote:
Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH
You are assuming a lot too - gaming on a pc is disappearing fast because of graphics card shortages etc. (I know plenty of my gamer mates losing interest because again a console just works) and yes other os choices are gaining traction. But all it will take is for the requirement to be enabled by default in new enterprise and business systems (and I have checked and EVERY laptop I have that is less than 4 years old meets the requirements by default as they are aimed at businesses) and nobody will notice or even know. They will buy a system and it will be Win 11 and work. There is 4 years to make that happen - that's a lifetime in this business. I seriously doubt Microsoft care if people like us lose interest, they are interested in higher hardware requirements meaning less support calls simples. My wife just started a job, her work laptop is totally locked down and she cannot do anything. Everyone else I know during the pandemic got a fully locked down Windows system to work from home with. We are NOT the target audience any longer - like we haven't been with OSX for years
oh and just to add that our local council has just announced that it is banning other OS's other than Win 10 from being used by council employees to do council work on....so the graphics design department that they have just kitted out with Macbooks will be forced to change in 6 months... that includes the loads of ipads they bought a few years back and everything else....
The reasoning - less support staff needed, everybody can swap files etc. and any issues can be sorted quickly. And the contract to supply the items has gone to HP so everyone is expected to be on a HP supplied Win 10 machine by the end of 2021 - and if you don't then they expect you to leave
I see Windows 11 being the point many casual users,realise Windows isn't worth the faff,and iOS/Android/ChromeOS will do the job. Also looking around the world,many businesses/governments have only recently moved off Windows 7.
As I said before:
Remember what happened to Vista and 8?? It was mostly casual users who didn't like it. I see the same reaction from casual users upon hearing all this faff about Windows 11. The reality is you seem to think its enthusiasts who are more put off - its mostly casual users who I hear don't seem that inspired by what they are hearing about Windows 11.Quote:
Another issue is the relatively short lifespan of Windows 10. Businesses/governments expect long support lifespans from Windows.However many businesses/governments,so many have just managed to wean themselves off Windows 7. So within a few years now it is Windows 11,with even worse hardware requirements?? Windows 10 will have support for a total of only 10 years,and only 4 years after a new OS is introduced?? That is far shorter than XP or 7. Its a disaster. 7 has extended support until 2023/2024. That might mean more places also decided to move towards Linux or other alternatives.
Things like TPM2 nonsense,needing Bitlocker is making people question whether Windows 11 will even work properly. What you need to appreciate,if a ton of casual users decide to upgrade their current machines to Windows 11,because the pop-up comes up,then it won't install properly or has issues,casual users get put off. Its what happened with Vista and 8. Word by mouth views of these OSes by casual users was poor.
Just because we all have the latest hardware,etc does not mean OEMs are even selling the latest hardware,or have proper support. So that means a lot of relatively new hardware won't properly support it. TPM2.0 is not mandated on a lot of systems even now,so I can see a lot of maintream laptops having problems. AMD is OK more than Intel because of fTPM2.0,but a lot of cheaper Intel systems won't have it,especially as SKL/KL is still sold in many countries now.
Most enthusiasts will go but,but you only need to XYZ - that is beyond what most people want to do.
Then it won't matter if Windows 11 is sold in 2025 exclusively,it will have such a negative view of it from casual users,they will stick with 10. Then when that Windows 10 PC goes south,they will get something else. This is why you need to stop thinking Windows has some magical hold over casual users. It doesn't.
It has more of a hold over enthusiasts like us - as I said it was mostly the enthusiasts mates of mine(and me),and people on tech forums like this,who went onto Vista and 8. Yet,in the realworld they had such poor mindshare,many casual users stuck with 7,and so did many businesses and governments. Plus with Windows 10 having such a short support lifespan,I can see more places now assessing whether they should stay with Windows. 4 years more is terrible by MS standards. This comes with Google and Samsung trying to increase Enterprise support for Android to 4/5 years.
Apple already supports iOS for around 6/7 years.
MS trying to make Windows 11 more of a faff to upgrade,and reduce its supported lifespan to make more money,is going to impact on its mindshare. So they are basically taking away more and more of the unique MO, Windows has for both ends of the spectrum. It happened with Vista,it happened with 8,and it will happen with 11 unless they change tact.
I don't think many casual users will be upgrading from 10 to 11. If the computer decides they can and it happens in the background then great, but for the most part it'll just be like the other devices they're used to and new ones will come with 11 while old ones will be stuck with 10. And most people are fine with that I expect.
One of the reasons I saw which screwed over Vista and 8,was the fact Windows update suggested the upgrade. People clicked on it,and it wouldn't complete or was a terrible experience. The actual CPU requirements are also trash too - it can't run on a 4C Zen CPU or 4C SKL/KL laptop,but an Atom?? The Atom is not going to have a great user experience in comparison,especially as many Atom based systems still use eMMC!Quote:
Originally Posted by kalniel
Soon once Windows 11 comes out,it will be suggested by Windows Update. Then it will fail because of the TPM2.0 requirement or something will screw up. Then what will happen casual users will just get a negative view of Windows 11 when their new PC can't run it,either because the OEM cheaped out,or you need fiddling with the BIOS. That is also assuming OEMs deliver any required firmware updates in an easy manner.
Then they will tell their mates its not worth it and so on. This is what happened with Vista and 8. The issue is MS just didn't work with OEMs - they know very well TPM2.0 isn't really supported that well,especially as many AMD/Intel CPUs are made for years and sold by OEMs,despite newer ones being released,and MS didn't enforce TPM2.0 as a requirement for newer Windows 10 PCs,only TPM1.2 IIRC.
The issue with this,especially with the shorter lifespan of Windows 10,compared to Windows 7 and XP I can see many people looking at other OSes. Examples being iOS/Android/ChromeOS devices especially as ARM based SOCs are getting more powerful and now Google/Samsung/Qualcomm are trying to extend the support lifespan. MS needs to be weary of its moves to reduce support lifespan,as its competitors are going the other way. It reduces one of the selling points for Windows.
I have a recent Samsung Galaxy Tab and it will do all the media stuff I want(watch YT,etc),web browsing,send e-mails,do light image editing and with a keyboard some word processing. It can integrate with the TV,etc. Its much easier to use,and get to settings for a casual user than Windows 10.
Windows 10 repeatedly changing stuff,and breaking stuff has had the opposite effect IMHO. It makes people consider other alternatives. I think this is why Mac sales are increasing now.
I see an increasing number of less techy casual users just ditching the Windows PC and using their non-Windows smartphone/tablet/laptop. I can see people just ditching Windows now because MS is just flailing around randomly doing stuff. Its more advanced users and PC gamers which Windows might have a holdover,not casual users. They are the ones who most likely will upgrade to get Windows 11 working IMHO.
After all Windows has much lower actual OS share than Android/iOS.
But from what i understand Microsoft's own Surface 2, that you can still but today, doesn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by 3dcandy
IIRC LTT mentioned in this weeks podcast that people could go out and buy a product from Microsoft where the warranty will last longer than the support for the OS it comes with. I'm not expecting they'll stick with these daft requirements come launch as i suspect they either don't know if they're coming or going, or they're simply using a nudge strategy where they publish requirements they know people are going to object to only to lessen them later to rapturous applauses.
This video summarises it well:Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky34
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrH4zEBmztc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrH4zEBmztc
Also,never thought about the E-waste aspect too!!
Edit!!
The same channel also explains why the cutoff point seems very arbitrary even WRT to security features:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwsYGGiUVVM
It also questions whether even buying a MS device makes much sense now. If they sell devices now which can't run Windows 11,what happens if you buy a Surface which can run Windows 11 - will it run Windows 12??
It feeds back into my argument,if MS wants to make support worse,why do you need a Windows device?? Surely with iOS,Android and Chrome OS trying to push longer support,those are an option too??
That's where I think MS have learned and it won't be like that. We've already seen with feature updates for win10 that MS won't even tell you an update is available until it's pretty sure you'll be able to install it without a problem (they invested a lot in ML for precisely this reason). If there's any doubt your setup can run win11 I don't think it'll be offered automatically.Quote:
Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH
I think MS are still fine - Mac and Android change version every year and device support can be as little as one year only.Quote:
The issue with this,especially with the shorter lifespan of Windows 10,compared to Windows 7 and XP I can see many people looking at other OSes. Examples being iOS/Android/ChromeOS devices especially as ARM based SOCs are getting more powerful and now Google/Samsung/Qualcomm are trying to extend the support lifespan. MS needs to be weary of its moves to reduce support lifespan,as its competitors are going the other way. It reduces one of the selling points for Windows.
But I agree about the move to Android - we were already past the point where most people are expected to have a home computer - the pandemic and home working have slightly given it a boost in the arm (pun intended) but I can see most home computing/remove stuff moving to Android eventually as well.
Install Ubuntu on it if it won't run W12 (or even W11). It'll do well on a Surface Pro. Simplez. ;) :DQuote:
Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH