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Apple's pleas to avoid "regulation that forces conformity," didn't cause any policy shift.
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Apple's pleas to avoid "regulation that forces conformity," didn't cause any policy shift.
To be fair, I prefer the Apple lightning connector to USB C as the centre of USB can snap out, especially when moomins try to stick the wrong charger in there, at least with lightning the bit that is most likely to break is the cable, which is cheaper and easier to swap than the port on a device..
Well, either way Apple have to adopt this or they should be fined.
If the lightning connector is so much better, Apple should licence it - at the going market rate.
Which is never going to Apple with Apple the 'Green, we care about the environment' company.
I have honestly never heard or seen anyone have the centre of a USB-C connector just "snapping out", not that it can't happen but commenting on the incredible rarity that I, as an IT manager, have not seen/heard it happen. If someone is doing something that can make it snap out, they need to pay the numpty tax to get it fixed.Quote:
Originally Posted by [GSV]Trig
I am sure by 2024 Apple will transition to USB-C but if they don't, I would love to see Apple iPhone blocked in the EU simply to see how much chaos it will cause both economically, for Apple users and Apple themselves.
Can they legislate for the USB-IF to go back to the old naming scheme, the new one is so confusing .
Honestly, we all know why apple were complaining, it was purely about making sure iPhone users were locked into a propriety connector that Apple has full control of and (iirc) can charge manufacturers for compatible hardware etc.
I'm all for standardised connectors, and it's obvious that apple can do this when it benefits them, ie on the iPad Pro, macbooks etc. Not to mention the iPhone uses the same base chipset as the iPad mini which is usb c not lightning...
It's also kind of ironic about Apple saying they cut out the charger because 'everyone has one' and to be eco friendly (yeah yeah, we're not daft it was money driven) while simultaneously complaining about a proprietary cable meaning users need 2 types of cable if they have both an iPad air (or above) and an iPhone... but then they can sell 2 types of 'spare' cables instead of people sharing..
Now if they can legislate the actual plastic casing of a usb c cable being the same as well that would be great... some devices have recessed sockets and restrict what cables can fit etc.
Wouldn't mind some 'better' naming too.
It wasn't overly rare where I used to work, we had security guards and installation engineers that would have personal phones, as well as work phones and someone, would invariably try to use the wrong charger cable and then either bend the pins or straight up snap the centre and it'd just be held in place by the connector pins, but wouldn't work unless it was wiggled into the right place, we had probably 5/6 in the space of a year and then I ended up buying wireless charger coils for them to sit inside the case to stop them messing them up with cables..Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabbykatze
Not exactly a common issue for a personal user, but when there's 20 or so guys that don't know which van they're in from day to day cable and charger issues were common..
So the issue wasn't that the connector was poor and could be prone to breaking, it was more that people were trying to stick the wrong thing in the wrong hole?Quote:
Originally Posted by [GSV]Trig
I mean, that's not realllllly the fault of USB-C :P
Only slapping the wrong cable in it as lightning connectors are not an open standard used by everything. You are blaming USB C for a problem caused by Apple. I don't care which way it goes but would rather the open non proprietary effectively free standard wins every time. If lightning was free to use yeah lets have it everywhere, but no so USB C plz.Quote:
Originally Posted by [GSV
No, its not a fault of USB-C at all, just the moomins I used to work with..Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabbykatze
At least with lightening the connector on the device isn't going to break as easily as a USB-C will if you give it to an idiot, and I prefer to replace a cable over replacing or repairing a device..
Think the anti-Apple slide on this is more you than me chap, I didn't say it was a fault of Apple or USB-C, I simply prefer the lightning connector over USB-C due to the experience relayed above..Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkedge
It is an important step to unify the electronics charger standard. On my opinion apple, some camera's and other devices producers will be against.
Some deja-vue here. The EU claimed to have saved the world once with this stuff, when mini-USB was taking over from proprietary charging cables. At that time I already had a cheap £30 feature phone with a USB charging port so figured USB charging was a done deal.
So now USB-C is taking over, and the EU are again trying to take credit for the hard work of the USB consortium.
Now last time Apple just ignored all this, and the EU said that was fine because there were cheap and readily available adaptor cables to allow Apple users to use a USB charger. So I don't expect any change in behaviour from Apple.
All the stuff the family has bought in I think the last year has been USB-C or at least micro USB.Quote:
the EC's proposals cover not just smartphones but tablets, cameras, headphones, portable speakers and handheld video game consoles.
My son's laptop has a barrel charging port, but is capable of USB-C charging, so a bit of an edge case.
I believe the Nintendo Switch is USB-C already? As is the Oculus Quest 2 so I think the EU should have bundled in head mounted video games to claim a victory there as well.
Edit: What I *really* want to see is the EU standardising on removable Li-Ion battery packs. These things are sizeable, and I now have a stack of them along with their chargers. They all do the same thing, they are all completely incompatible and they are all a few years old and starting to lose some capacity. When the battery pack dies on my lawnmower the whole thing with go to the tip because Homebase don't make those Qualcast units or sell spare batteries. I should be able to go to the likes of Energizer or Duracell and just ask for a standard 36V battery pack like I can a pack of AA cells.
There don't seem to be many voltages, the Li-Ion chemistry sorts that out. Just need a standard physical dimensions, retention clip and connector.
The last time it never got to a directive, but more an understanding.
A Gentlemen's Agreement/Understanding even, but Apple were obviously not Gentlemen and just ignored it.
That's why I'm hoping this time it has teeth and Apple either comply, get fined, or get banned.
Perhaps we should just start a rumour that all the latest Apple phones support microwave charging. 60 seconds at 850W should get it as charged as it will ever get after that ;)
I was going to say nobody could be that stupid... but then though a bit more: yes they could!Quote:
Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix
USB C is the best connector for human kind. Apple tried to circumvent the idea by a male type connector. Apple is not an angel and lets stand and clap for the EU committee. Wallstreet politicians should stop praising USA companies on anti-competitive/anti-consumer behaviors.
Odd, I think humankind has been doing very well with a completely different connector for thousands of years... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by lumireleon
Lol, well said. Who TF is breaking off the center part of a Type C port? Never seen or even heard of that...Quote:
Originally Posted by TabbykatzeI have honestly never heard or seen anyone have the centre of a USB-C connector just "snapping out", not that it can't happen but commenting on the incredible rarity that I, as an IT manager, have not seen/heard it happen. If someone is doing something that can make it snap out, they need to pay the numpty tax to get it fixed.Quote:
Originally Posted by [GSV]Trig
I am sure by 2024 Apple will transition to USB-C but if they don't, I would love to see Apple iPhone blocked in the EU simply to see how much chaos it will cause both economically, for Apple users and Apple themselves.
Politics and stuff aside, I think that the lightning connector is better..
reckon he already explained this...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mngereso
Clearly never worked with security guards or alarm engineers lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Mngereso
You really got to be a clumsy muppet to break a USB-C and yes please some standards, and if Apple does not like it, they can leave the EU market and yes they can afford to do such, however I won't think the shareholders would be that happy.
Also stop trying to sell the same brand with new connectors and whatever hahaha... when it get to it, it is the same thing and there is hardly any innovation and new thinking in this changing the shape and name of things whenever it get to it.
Yes they were, bear in mind a lot of these were minimum wage guys that get paid to drive between places and lock up, check a site and then move on to the next..
^This!!Quote:
Originally Posted by LSG501
I have to say, the most common call you hear at our place is, "Has anyone got an iPhone charger??!!", so for that reason (and their stoopid* ringtone) I'm all in favour of the iMoomins being iLocked into their proprietary iCables.
*Seriously, do iPhone users simply never change it, or are they actually locked into using the iRingtone?
Always the same, that age-old sing-songy "Look - at - me... I've - got - an - Eye - Fone" tune.....
I can honestly see Apple going fully wireless from 2024 onwards, with their iPhones at least.
Surely this must go against any green credentials they tout? After all wireless charging is no way as efficient as charging with a wire plugged into the phone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoonigan
Fully wireless - yep - that'll work well charging on any non flat surface / in a backpack.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned that Lightening is effectively stuck at USB 2 data speeds.
Good luck getting that hi-res new fangled video off the latest iphones using that before everyone else goes to the pub.
You're forgetting that everything apple releases is 'magical' and will somehow that magic will charge the phones when plugged into the mains :PQuote:
Originally Posted by IAmATeaf
Wouldn't that then cause issues with IP67/68 standards?Quote:
Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix
I find Lightning cables easier to insert than USB C, I find USB C cables easier to extract than Lightning cables. Mainly due to the sizing and having large hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by lumireleon
Uploads to iCloud automatically with Wi-fi. Just saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by scunc
The only issues I take with the EU doing this?
- What happens to all of the old chargers and cables? More e-waste.
- What happens when a better connector / transmission protocol comes along, is everyone stuck on the old one until the EU catches up?
We all know how slow the EU are at enacting anything. It's a bureaucracy, not a tech company or the USB consortium that creates these standards. Seriously, wouldn't that stifle innovation right there? I think it actually would. I've yet to see any evidence produced by the EU that all of these different charging standards produce the amount of e-waste they're touting, I've got various things that use USB C for charging, some of those are NOT interchangeable (such as my Amplifi router using USB C for power connection, but couldn't use that to charge my headset etc). Equally the part about limiting the amount of power for charging? Well I'd rather not have a battery explode because it's got a different rating for how quickly it should be charged, because right there would be more e-waste. That's the whole point of having the device request the PD supplied, so essentially the EU is also now trying to make up the USB standard themselves?
Sorry but no, too many caveats in this, the EU is simply wrong and interfering in things it doesn't understand due to being a bureaucracy and not a tech consortium that sets the standards.
Don't Apple use magnets these days? ISTR reading about iPhone users putting a phone in their shirt pocket and the magnets turning off their pacemaker, so they must be pretty strong.Quote:
Originally Posted by scunc
Sorry, I wasn't clearly marking my context switch there. That isn't a phone thing, though phone batteries could be part of it for the few devices where they happen to be removable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iota
I'm talking about my drill, impact driver, hedge trimmer, lawnmower, strimmer etc. These things all have removable battery packs. It's a "feature"; you can buy a naked drill without buying the battery and charger to keep you in their ecosystem. The drill came with two battery packs so you can use one while charging the other.
The thing is, eg the Bosch strimmer would use the same battery pack as my drill, except it looks to be a rubbish strimmer. So I bought another brand, and now have another cell pack and charger. Nearly all these devices are 18V (so 5 cells) and a very similar form factor.
Bosch have a proprietary "Power for All" 18v pack. Ryobi have a "One+" 18v battery for all their power tools. The packs from Black and Decker, DeWalt etc are similarly compatible across the entire range for that one brand and only that brand. I had to take a screwdriver to the Dyson to get the battery pack out, but once out it doesn't look much different to any of the others.
They could and should be standardised across all manufacturers. It is a clear anti consumer lock-in tactic.
The thing is, the whole USB-C thing is a non event as it was clearly happening anyway. Apple are lagging, but even they will probably come around to it when Apple users see how fast Android users can charge their phones on USB-C and demand a change. But this battery pack thing is getting entrenched, and is clearly a land-grab for users by the companies involved.
Didn't see your edit there.Quote:
Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix
This is something I've been ranting about for ages too.
The EU doing it would be a good start, but all batteries should really have an ISO standard.
If you've ever watched some of the teardown videos on Youtube, there are actual technical differences but an ISO standard should sort that.Quote:
Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix
I watched some teardowns for Lidl's Parkside 20V and Aldi's Ferrex 20V/40V battery packs (because they are cheap if I ever were to get around to trying an ebike conversion kit - the Aldi with its "40V" (really 37V I would imagine) should fit most 37V ebike kits).
The biggest differences is whether the "don't discharge below the damage threshold" is on the tool or the battery.
Other differences are to do with the controller and balancing. Think Parkside recently changed theirs to be balanced (so in a pack of 5 x 3.7V, one cell being too low is less likely to damage the whole pack).
But as I said, all of this could and should be part of any standard.
As for IP67/68 and removable batteries: my old Samsung Galaxy S5 was IP67 and had a removable battery. As did my earlier Motorola Defy+. There really is no excuse.
The recent trend of the battery being sandwiched between the screen and the mainboard (I'm thinking of a Nokia 8 teardown I saw) is complete nonsense has very little technical reason aside from maybe the shock horror 1mm of extra thickness. But even screwed down like (AFAIR) Moto G5 is fine; it's the glued into the middle which isn't.
Lots of batteries seem to call themselves a multiple of 3.6V, but it doesn't seem to really mean much in reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by kompukare
My Qualcast (actually some Homebase own brand, with some deal on brand naming rights) lawnmower battery with 36V on the label reads 41V on no load with a voltmeter, which sounds like 11 cells topped off at 3.73V. But at 3.6V you would need 10 cells to hit 36V. *shrug*. My 18V packs seem to vary from 18.5 to more like 20V on the hedge trimmer (again, no load).
If only there were a standard for this stuff...
This is overall a good and positive step towards reducing e-waste and simplifying connectivity options - regardless of the actual motivations behind this and whether USB-C is the "best" option or not.
The bigger question for me is whether we in the UK will actually be able to benefit from this i.e. will we setup the equivalent legislation on our side.. Fingers crossed we do.
It really is in our best interests to follow suit on things like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spud1
But I imagine there'll be some umming and ahhing but if the EU, UK and US all perform legislation like this, it will force Apples hand. I feel Apple will happily lose the direct sale EU market just to offset the losses of the lightning licensing.
Much though I dislike Apple company policies and products, there must surely be more important things to expend legislative effort on than Apple bashing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabbykatze
From a quick Google, it looks like even Apple use USB PD in their phones, just not with the USB-C connector. So it's hard to argue e-waste if iPhones use the same PD chargers as my Android phone and tablet, just with an overpriced cable.
The more I look into this, the more I wonder just who the heck they are targetting. Last holdout for odd charging was the cheap Chinese tablet market, but people don't buy tablets any more, and a bit of clicking around on Amazon it looks like even they have migrated from the nasty barrel connector to micro-usb which I would consider acceptable.
Well, maybe rather than cracking down on Apple not paying their fair share of corporate taxes, this is the proxy for doing *something* to Apple?Quote:
Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix
There'll be many people, many departments and many teams working on many things. I would rather see all phones use the same connector and have an acceptable minimum standard for quality of cable and charger but I'm not an iPhone user so it doesn't ultimately bother me. Except when an iPhone user inevitably forgets their cable in the office and I just don't carry any Lightning cables because they're practically useless except for that one thing. But i have a pack of about 20 USB-C cables at any one time because so many devices use them from peripherals to phones, tablets and our high end webcams. I much prefer universality rather than a single entity being a hodge podge for no other reason than they get extra money by forcing the connector licensing.Quote:
Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix
Not even close to the same teams/departments that would be looking into this.Quote:
Originally Posted by kompukare
Blocking Apple sales would only serve to disrupt an economical area rather than sorting out the tax issue.
I guess part of my problem here is the incompetence that the EU have shown in the past with things like the vacuum cleaner power limits. Did Intel ever pay up the billion euro anti trust fine? Apple just won't care, and won't pay if fined.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabbykatze
If the EU mandate USB-C, then what happens when a better USB-D comes out? USB-C is 7 years old now, and has finally reached a tipping point of becoming dominant without any EU help. So I can't see any benefit at all from this, it just makes the future murky.
On the other hand the energy labels for most appliances have done exactly what they set out to do. So much so that they had to revise them as otherwise would be A+++ by now.Quote:
Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix
Vacuum cleaners mainly got a lot of publicity here as that Dyson was too incompetent actually make a meaningful submission while it was being drafted. But then the UK not properly engaging at the EU level pre-dates Brexit by decades. If a member of a rules-based organisation, it is very important that members actually can be bothered to be aware of those rules.
Oh, I dunno. I'd have said the UK engaged a lot, on a lot of issues. More than a few EU directives were based heavily on UK laws, including consumer rights laws, and one of the reasons quite a few other member states didn't want Brexit is that as a large economy and pretty large population, we were a good counterpoint to the federalists in the Franco-German block. That, by the way, isn't so much my own view as that communicated to me by relatives and friends from half a dozen other EU countries. As for Dyson, dunno about their input but if I remember correctly, Dyson himself was firmly in the Brexit camp, which might explain him not devoting much time, effort or money to EU rule changes. That said, assuming he wants to sell into the EU, even once out, he still has to comply with EU rules so I'd be very surprised if he wasn't on top of proposed changes, even if only to oppose what he didn't like.Quote:
Originally Posted by kompukare
Yeah, I recently bought a dishwasher that would have managed A+++ rating, and is now like a C or something. It seems to have a setting specifically for getting that rating, which doesn't adequately wash the dishes.Quote:
Originally Posted by kompukare
My tumble dryer also manages a pretty good energy rating. It is one of the worst purchases I have ever made, has majorly put me off the Bosch brand, and doesn't actually seem capable of drying clothes out of the box. Thankfully there are hidden engineering menus that Youtube helps you find which allow you to turn the heating element up which at least gives you a shot at getting clothes dry. I mean, it has one job...
and yes Dyson can be an arse, but in that case I think he was quite justified. It think they mostly sell battery powered hand held cleaners these days, so those rules won't apply. OTOH, he might have to make it charge with USB-C :)
Dyson are Singapore HQ these days aren't they? Handy that there's an EU-Singapore free trade agreement :p
I'm actually annoyed they went battery only - doesn't seem longevity minded as much as mains devices are. Wonder when the EU standard battery connection will come in...
I'm happy with using the Apple lightning connector.
We've had a battery model (and other vacuum cleaners) for about a decade and the battery is still fine. It's hardly a statistically significant sample size, but the battery seems pretty good. Last time I inquired, we could get a full service, including a replacement battery if it was playing up, for something around £100-ish. The battery alone was about £80, IIRC.Quote:
Originally Posted by kalniel
Apple will turn away from connectors and only use wireless charging and maybe something like the keyboard connectors on the iPad (the 3 dots)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tabbykatze