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Thread: IFA 2006 :: Toshiba claims HD DVD superior to Blu-ray

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    No more Mr Nice Guy. Nick's Avatar
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    IFA 2006 :: Toshiba claims HD DVD superior to Blu-ray

    We sat down with Toshiba to talk about HD DVD and ended up comparing it with Blu-ray... and it makes some very interesting reading...

    Check out what Toshiba's Jim Armour has to say on the competing formats in this IFA 2006 Interview.
    Last edited by Bob Crabtree; 05-09-2006 at 02:31 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dareos View Post
    "OH OOOOHH oOOHHHHHHHOOHHHHHHH FILL ME WITH YOUR.... eeww not the stuff from the lab"

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    That does make for an interesting read.

    I was always under the impression that Blu Ray used MPEG4 too.

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    No more Mr Nice Guy. Nick's Avatar
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    It has been added for pre-recorded discs, though whether Blu-ray willbe able to record using MPEG-4 is unclear.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dareos View Post
    "OH OOOOHH oOOHHHHHHHOOHHHHHHH FILL ME WITH YOUR.... eeww not the stuff from the lab"

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    that was a very interesting read, i think the clincher for me (because i didn't realise before) is that HD DVD is region free. Although i can't honestly believe that sony would allow a product to go to market if there was a high risk of the lense being scratched, that sounded like a big overstatement to me.

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    awm
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    Interesting. The region free thing was the thing that struck me the most too. Look like I now dislike HD-DVD a little less than Blu-Ray

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    I have a bit on an issue what the Toshiba rep was speaking about. CDs are constructed as he says, with the polycarbonate layer at the bottom with a thin reflective layer on top (and some die in between for CD-R). However DVDs have two polycarbonate layers, with the reflective and semi-reflective layers in between. This is the same for DVD-R disks. If you look closely you can see the distinct layers on a DVD-R and even feel the ridge with a thumb nail.

    When you bend a CD to breaking point it shatters. When you bend a DVD to breaking point it splits down the bond between layers giving you two thin layers of polycarbonate.

    I gave up reading when the Toshiba rep said HD-DVDs used a different form of construction to CD and DVD, that turned out to be the same as how DVDs are produced.

    Half the point of HD-DVD over BluRay is that manufacturers can use the same plant with very little modification. How could this be if HD-DVD uses a different manufacturing process?

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    Senior Member charleski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parm
    I was always under the impression that Blu Ray used MPEG4 too.
    H.264 is MPEG4. MPEG4 is actually a complex multipart definition, this is part 10. The MPEG4 used in HD-DVD is (surprise) h.264 video as well. H.264 offers the same quality as MPEG2 at around 1/2-1/3 the bitrate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    It has been added for pre-recorded discs, though whether Blu-ray willbe able to record using MPEG-4 is unclear.
    Are there standards set for consumer recording yet? They've been having enough silly DRM difficulties with the standard version as it is. Once the specs come out for production of unencrypted discs I suspect there'll be no problem putting h.264 in a Blu-Ray format.
    Last edited by charleski; 05-09-2006 at 09:17 PM.

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    Can anyone here see Blu Ray or HD DVD being used in the music industry, that would be funny
    With love and many thanks,

    Melons

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    awm
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    I've figured out why Sony's supported format had 25GB disks instead of 15GB disks. 15 for data and 10 for rootkit and other DRM.

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    OK.....Lets take sides for a bit....
    which side of the court are we on?
    And God said "Let there be light." But then the program crashed because he was trying to access the 'light' property of a NULL universe pointer.

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    awm
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    The sidelines watching a DVD.

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    The article has now been corrected to reflect what I actually said.

    I did say that HD DVD has the same physical characteristics as standard definition DVD (2 polycarbobate substrates) and that this is tried and tested technology againt bowing or warping of the media.
    BD is one polycarbonate substrate of 1.1mm covered by a hard coating material. The lens of a BD disc has a working distance of 0.1mm (that's the distance it is from the media when reading/writing).
    I only speculated on what would happen if the media was to warp or bend (due to heat or mechanical distortion). Is the 0.1mm lens working distance an problem in this case? I didn't say that BD has an intrinsic design flaw, only that I think this could be an issue.
    If someone from the BD Association could explain why this is not an issue I would be more than happy to accept their explanation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Funkstar
    I have a bit on an issue what the Toshiba rep was speaking about. CDs are constructed as he says, with the polycarbonate layer at the bottom with a thin reflective layer on top (and some die in between for CD-R). However DVDs have two polycarbonate layers, with the reflective and semi-reflective layers in between. This is the same for DVD-R disks. If you look closely you can see the distinct layers on a DVD-R and even feel the ridge with a thumb nail.

    When you bend a CD to breaking point it shatters. When you bend a DVD to breaking point it splits down the bond between layers giving you two thin layers of polycarbonate.

    I gave up reading when the Toshiba rep said HD-DVDs used a different form of construction to CD and DVD, that turned out to be the same as how DVDs are produced.

    Half the point of HD-DVD over BluRay is that manufacturers can use the same plant with very little modification. How could this be if HD-DVD uses a different manufacturing process?

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    Does he need a reason? Funkstar's Avatar
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    Iæm glad you cleared that up jim

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    Well, from my perspective, the technical aspects are not really indicative of "who will win the war"...

    What's really going to decide which format takes over is related to economic principles like; economies of scale, and price-elasticity gain. Why is this so? It's simple, when faced with choices that "look the same", consumers will usually choose the least expensive option. It's only the few "tech savy" buyers (a.k.a. elitist snobs), with more money than sense, that do otherwise.

    Now if Toshiba could just ramp up production, and fix the few remaining technical issues (like heat...). They might be able to actually "compete".
    Last edited by Cannyone; 08-09-2006 at 01:53 PM.

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    I'm sorry, but where does Toshiba have to fix the few remaining techical issues (like heat)?

    I don't see anything inthe previous postings where we (underscore) talk about a HEAT problem with HD DVD.

    And... we are ramping up production.

    But; all player in the blue diode laser application industry are experiencing slight problems at the moment regarding the yield of blue LASER diodes.

    Unfortunately Toshiba doesn't make their own LD's (Laser Diodes). We have to rely on partners.

    This is a new technology. The manufacturing process has to be optimised.

    Both Sony(BD) and Toshiba(HD DVD) are doing what they can to provide their preferred format to the customer at the best price point and delivery date that they can manage.

    Both "camps" want their formats to be successful.

    There will be a lot of discussion of the BD/HD DVD formats in the coming months, maybe even years. Is it really a full blown format war? A storm in a teacup that will be clerified within the next few months by a unification of the formats (I personally do not think so, and I work for Toshiba in Germany). Or will one format kill the other within the next two years or so...??


    I guess all I can say is... Watch this space!!

    (These are all my personal opinions and have nothing to do with Toshiba offical policy)

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    Codecs

    While many early bluray discs are using mpeg2, I think you would be foolish to assume that bluray will use mpeg2 long-term (though it wouldn't surprise me if this lasted much longer than i would hope either). So in the long-run, both will be using the decent mpeg4 codecs. However, I take the point, that most consumers *don't* get, that hd-dvd, whilst having less space than bluray, has enough to encode a long film at the highest quality with high quality sound, which is all that really matters. The extra space for us in terms of computer data strorage does favour bluray but not by alot IMHO and isn't the main point about the format war. Also, it should be mentioned that hd-dvd supports higher standards of audio, a point to its advantage which is oft overlooked. So, from what I've heard, hddvd should be better, though of course that is not always enough to win a format war. Read www.projectorcentral.com articles on the subject to get a better feel of hands on tests.

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