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Thread: Nvidia GeForce GTX 1070 (16nm Pascal)

  1. #33
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    Re: Nvidia GeForce GTX 1070 (16nm Pascal)

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    No-one is (or at least, I'm not) making excuses for high prices, only saying that expecting doubling of performance every year is unreasonable if you're comparing it to cars. Cars are getting better tech wise, sure, but they're not doubling their efficiency each year.
    People are forgetting that this is a THIRD generation 20NM process with Finfets. Many of the yield issues would have been solved by now as both TSMC and Samsung have had a long time to muck around with them.

    Remember its been nearly 4.5 years since 28NM debuted with GPUs too. It just shows you how much Nvidia PR has managed people's expectations and has done a very good job. They would not be making nearly 60% margins up from the early 30s 4 to 5 years ago,or having record profits,which they used to spend billions on Tegra and other areas.

    People need to look at them as a whole company and realise they are making far more money per card than they have ever had - even Rollo was making the same analogies years ago about luxury and entitlements,so be wary of being sucked into such arguments.

    The same arguments were made,that 28NM was very expensive,etc. Yet the GTX670 at the same dollar price was 20% faster than the GTX580.

    The GTX680 was only 10% faster than the GTX670.

    If you even look at the JPR figures you will realise that the vast majority of card sales are under $300. IIRC,I read somewhere that of the 15% sales above $300,only 3% are above $450,ie,£310.

    Hence,the GTX1080 is not going to really sell in volume - it will be the GTX1070 which is the bigger selling SKU. There is no excuse for the GTX1080 to be like 25% to 30% quicker - it is badge engineered on purpose to that level.

    Nvidia made decent money selling a GTX670 which was close to a GTX680,let alone a GTX970 which was not far off a GTX980,or the 8800GT which was not far off the 8800GTX,etc. ATI only had the HD3870 in the latter case.

    The GTX1070 is only a 150W TDP card FFS - hardly needs expensive parts for the PCB and cooling in reality.

    Too many PC enthusiasts also need to think that piddling increases are not helping the gaming market.

    It is great for companies - but if people are getting worse increases from cheaper cards or need to spend more and more to get performance increases,ie,the equivalent performance jump to the GTX670 over the GTX580 is not $400 but $600 to $700 now,it means either a lot of people will have slowish cards or ones keeping them longer and longer.

    Remember if a gamer who spends £150 decides to spend £300,they probably will keep the card longer.

    Nvidia has essentially jacked up the performance increase we got from the GTX580 to the GTX670 by 50% to 70% and not even inflation is that high.

    In the end it means devs will still have to target a low performance base for PCs,and this is what is increasingly happening with PC only games,and the rest just generate far more income from consoles.



    People complain that consoles are holding back PC gaming - it is the poorer and poorer increases we are getting with graphics cards which is doing that.

    It is probably what happened with The Witcher 3 - why it was downgraded.

    The dev probably realised with that level of image quality,hardly anybody with a gaming PC could run the game,so they made the graphics more in line with what the common cards could handle.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 01-06-2016 at 10:36 AM.

  2. #34
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    Re: Nvidia GeForce GTX 1070 (16nm Pascal)

    They're making more money per card, but selling fewer cards. Seems a reasonable trade off in an era of declining PC sales. We consumers have the choice whether to buy the latest and greatest or whether to stick with what we've got (and are hopefully happy with).

    As for piddling increases, I really don't get people saying the 1070/80 are piddling. Yes, they (and Polaris) are basically the second half of a product split caused by the finfet delays - ideally Maxell would have been this product, rather than staging the update in two parts. Despite that, the increase from keplar to pascal is extremely impressive, and even the increase from maxwell to pascal is nothing to be sneezed at.

    But as ever, if it's not enough for anyone, the advice is clear - don't buy it! I'm currently running a 7870 because I didn't need to upgrade. If devs target low performance base PCs then I'll have even less reason to upgrade, and they can concentrate on adding gameplay rather than graphics.

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    Re: Nvidia GeForce GTX 1070 (16nm Pascal)

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    They're making more money per card, but selling fewer cards. Seems a reasonable trade off in an era of declining PC sales. We consumers have the choice whether to buy the latest and greatest or whether to stick with what we've got (and are hopefully happy with).

    As for piddling increases, I really don't get people saying the 1070/80 are piddling. Yes, they (and Polaris) are basically the second half of a product split caused by the finfet delays - ideally Maxell would have been this product, rather than staging the update in two parts. Despite that, the increase from keplar to pascal is extremely impressive, and even the increase from maxwell to pascal is nothing to be sneezed at.

    But as ever, if it's not enough for anyone, the advice is clear - don't buy it! I'm currently running a 7870 because I didn't need to upgrade. If devs target low performance base PCs then I'll have even less reason to upgrade, and they can concentrate on adding gameplay rather than graphics.
    It is a piddling increase - both the GTX470 and GTX670 at $400 were 20% faster than the GTX285 and GTX580 respectively. The GTX1070 is matching the GTX980TI/Titan X.

    People are forgetting the effect of the Titan rebranding and the profit increase seems far more than the decline in the market overall. PR from NV and AMD like to sell it that way and this is why:

    Down-managing people's expectations,then making them psychologically accept it is as important as the products they launch. It maximises profits. It also means they are more like to upgrade quicker for smaller improvements which increases repeat business and cheapens sunken costs
    It makes you a weak consumer which is what they want and people should not be gullible to it.

    Vote with your wallets!!

    But also that is the other issue,if people don't have great cards,why bother with a PC?? Get a console for the same price as a GTX1070 or AMD Vega and plug it into your TV.

    Ditch the desktop and buy a tablet/laptop.

    If you prioritise gameplay over graphics,why bother with a desktop - use an IGP,console or your phone or tablet??

    The whole point for desktop graphics cards is to push decent graphics at decent resolutions,ie,image quality.

    If you can't do that,then the gaming PC is just pointless.

    Hardware enthusiasts are very short sighted indeed - these sort of PR engineered moves might work short term but as time progresses people will eventually not bother and buy a console,or use their phone or tablet or IGP on their laptop.

    Look at how even games like Diablo3 and Overwatch from Blizzard are now on console?? Blizzard basically ditched consoles in the 90s and were very PC centric. The moment they get WoW or its successor on a console,it is big trouble for NV and AMD.

    Planetside 2 is now on console. Planetside and Planetside 2 were poster boys for what the PC could do.

    These piddling increases are not impressive due to the fact Nvidia is charging 50% to 70% more for that increase. So instead of a $400 GTX670 offering 20% over the previous high end card,it is a $600 to $700 GTX1080 doing the same. No amount of massaging changes that.

    This is why so many companies are targetting consoles more and more - the average gamer does not have strong enough graphics and AMD and NV trying to string along performance increases is why this is the case.

    Devs hence won't bother when they know what to expect with a console.

    So we can agree to disagree Kalniel,but I honestly don't find the GTX1070 that impressive,after a 4.5 year wait on 28NM and a move to a third generation Finfet process which means it is probably reasonable mature by now. Even the move from 45NM to 28NM was less drastic than this and it was a far less mature process at the start.

    All I see is a 50% to 70% dollar market in price for a similar improvement,level of improvement. It only looks impressive compared to PR engineered ultra poor value cards like the Fury X and GTX980TI which were overpriced anyway.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 01-06-2016 at 11:08 AM.

  4. #36
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    Re: Nvidia GeForce GTX 1070 (16nm Pascal)

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    It is a piddling increase - both the GTX470 and GTX670 were 20% faster than the GTX285 and GTX580 respectively.
    How much faster is the 1070 than the 970?

    But also that is the other issue,if people don't have great cards,why bother with a PC?? Get a console for the same price as GTX1070 or AMD equivalent and plug it into your TV.
    Because I can't edit photos / do audio/ game toolkit work on a console.

    Ditch the desktop and buy a tablet/laptop.
    Likewise laptops/tablets don't have the interface or CPU/Mem grunt I need.

    If you prioritise gameplay over graphics,why bother with a desktop - use an IGP,console or your phone or tablet.
    I'm fine for gaming to go to IGPs, but they're not there just yet. I don't have a console, tablet, and only recently got my first smart phone capable of playing games - which I do play on as well, but seeing as I have this workstation like PC it's nice to use it for games too - just like we used to.

    The whole point for desktop graphics cards is to push decent graphics at decent resolutions,ie,image quality.
    I don't see any of the current offerings having a problem with that. Last game I played (Elite) looks absolutely incredible compared to it's ancestors. Still on a several year old GPU mind.

    Hardware enthusiasts are very short sighted indeed - these sort of PR engineered moves might work short term but as time progresses people will eventually not bother and buy a console.
    I don't mind if casual gamers move to consoles PC gaming was originally a re-purposing of equipment designed for other tasks, and was a small, minority market. We're heading back there again

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    Re: Nvidia GeForce GTX 1070 (16nm Pascal)

    Nvm.
    Last edited by peterb; 01-06-2016 at 02:11 PM. Reason: Nolonger relevant

  6. #38
    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: Nvidia GeForce GTX 1070 (16nm Pascal)

    (personal comments ignored, they don't add anything to the discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    How much faster was the GTX670 compared to the GTX580 at $400?
    Lots I presume, but that doesn't change that the 1070 is not a piddly increase in performance over a 970.

    that the GTX1070 is awesome value.
    I've not said anything of the sort, but one has to admit that when it's released, gamers who might have spent the same money before are now getting more for their buck. Comparing absolute performance over all the years of PC gaming one could also argue that we're getting more bang for buck than we ever have too, such is the march of technology - far more, in fact, than is occurring in many segments (and presumably less than some others still). Polaris looks like even better value for money.

    Also trying to compare it to the GTX970 - you mean a £250 card compared to a £320 to £400 one??

    It is 30% to 60% more expensive. So you cannot even compare the cards??
    MSRP for the 970 was $50 less than the 1070, nVidia are targetting them at the same performance segment hence 'x70' designator. There are several reasons the $50 increase isn't wholly unreasonable either. But as ever, no-one is forced to agree - we can vote with our wallets and AMD are providing a great argument in the value camp.

    Plenty of laptops do - considering most of the PIs and post docs I know do a lot of their work on laptops and there is plenty of grunt to be had with modern laptops.

    Loads of photogs I have met use laptops.
    They may well do, but I find a desktop a much more comfortable proposition, and I seem to get more power and reliability for my money with a desktop, along with my choice of specification.

    Don't be elitist and say people who play on consoles are casual.
    They are in my opinion - you can even slump on a couch and play!

    Plus the smaller the market goes,it means less and devs will care for PCs - PC gaming will die.
    If mass market productions leave the PC then I won't be too concerned. PC gaming started with small studios and given the great content such studios still manage to produce then I'm happy.

    You go on about Elite,which you the talk about graphics,but the problem is that is on consoles too.
    I don't see it as a problem at all.

    The only reason for the PC is to push graphics
    I think I've shown otherwise - PCs are useful for far more than just pushing graphics. They have great interfaces, can utilise a vast variety of peripherals, have the power, openess and interface to be able to provide game toolkit content for eg.

    and no amount of massaging from you to make the GTX1070 great value
    Value is in the eye of the beholder - graphics cards for PCs used to cost a huge amount for something a fraction of the power of my phone. As did memory. As did hard drives. We had a period recently where PCs became mass market and for a while economies of scale and technology development drove down the real cost significantly lower to any point it had been in history. There is no reason for that trend to continue now that PCs are not as common in the home as they used to be.

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    Re: Nvidia GeForce GTX 1070 (16nm Pascal)

    Nvm.
    Last edited by peterb; 01-06-2016 at 02:12 PM. Reason: Non longer relevant

  8. #40
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    Re: Nvidia GeForce GTX 1070 (16nm Pascal)

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    So basically you are saying the GTX1070 is awesome value!! It is the best increase ever.
    .
    .
    According to you the GTX1070 is a veritable bargain
    Where have I said that? In fact I'm pretty sure I clarified I wasn't saying that.

    and the best jump ever.
    Again, I haven't said that either. Perhaps I'm not being clear enough: I don't think it's awesome value or the best jump ever.

    So,the $400 GTX670 which was 20% faster than the GTX580,was not the bestest ever.
    I don't really know about 'bestest' ever. Personally the biggest improvement I saw from a GPU was going to a Voodoo2.

    So instead of say £165 to £200 for R9 390X level performance with Polaris 10 ,AMD should have a minimum price of £230 to £240 ,as that should match a GTX1070 in price/performance a qHD and make it better value than a Fury X!! It also will be £20 cheaper than a R9 390 and cheaper than a R9 390X.

    AMD are a stupid company - instead of charging less they should be charging more so that their shareholders should be happier.
    I disagree - AMD think (and I agree) that their shareholders want to see them gain in volume initially, since perhaps brand tie-in/synergy can be achieved. Achieving volume is simplest done by addressing the largest market segment you can with your products, even if the margin on higher end products might be higher.

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    Senior Member cptwhite_uk's Avatar
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    Re: Nvidia GeForce GTX 1070 (16nm Pascal)

    Can you two stop arguing now, it's like watching my parents fight!

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    Re: Nvidia GeForce GTX 1070 (16nm Pascal)

    Quote Originally Posted by cptwhite_uk View Post
    Can you two stop arguing now, it's like watching my parents fight!
    He isn't even disagreeing look at the last post - I was argueing all along the GXT1070 was poor value,and he went in circles and now agreed with me.

  12. #43
    HEXUS.timelord. Zak33's Avatar
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    Re: Nvidia GeForce GTX 1070 (16nm Pascal)

    even I am bored with this now.

    Anyone want a biscuit?

    Rich Tea .. or Digestive.....

    please bear in mind they compete in the same biscuit market and some people will prefer the advertising of one more than the other

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  13. #44
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    Re: Nvidia GeForce GTX 1070 (16nm Pascal)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zak33 View Post
    even I am bored with this now.

    Anyone want a biscuit?

    Rich Tea .. or Digestive.....

    please bear in mind they compete in the same biscuit market and some people will prefer the advertising of one more than the other
    HOBNOB!

    What are you, some kind of tea-dunking peasant?

    #nobmasterrace

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  15. #45
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    Re: Nvidia GeForce GTX 1070 (16nm Pascal)

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    HOBNOB!

    What are you, some kind of tea-dunking peasant?

    #nobmasterrace
    I did NOT allow quad core biscuits...did I Kal? now you KNOW I love your hobnob as MUCH as the next man but come onnnnnnnn

    this is a single core, 32 bit biscuiit barrel and maybe.. JUUUUUST maybe.. there's a jammy dodger in the bottom of the tin

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  16. #46
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    Re: Nvidia GeForce GTX 1070 (16nm Pascal)

    Meh,Scottish Shortbread is better than all these non-butter biscuits!

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      • 32GB 3200MHz ECC
      • Storage:
      • 1TB Linux, 2TB Games (Win 10)
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Asus Strix RX Vega 56
      • PSU:
      • 650W Corsair TX
      • Case:
      • Antec 300
      • Operating System:
      • Fedora 35 + Win 10 Pro 64 (yuk)
      • Monitor(s):
      • Benq XL2730Z 1440p + Iiyama 27" 1440p
      • Internet:
      • Zen 80Mb/20Mb VDSL

    Re: Nvidia GeForce GTX 1070 (16nm Pascal)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zak33 View Post
    JUUUUUST maybe.. there's a jammy dodger in the bottom of the tin
    I hope you have hardware support to asynchronously schedule eating that, else it might be at the bottom of the tin for ages

  18. #48
    Bagnaj97
    Guest

    Re: Nvidia GeForce GTX 1070 (16nm Pascal)

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    I hope you have hardware support to asynchronously schedule eating that, else it might be at the bottom of the tin for ages
    Silly question. Either way he'll say he has.
    Last edited by Bagnaj97; 02-06-2016 at 06:51 PM.

  19. Received thanks from:

    CAT-THE-FIFTH (02-06-2016),DanceswithUnix (02-06-2016),kalniel (03-06-2016),scaryjim (03-06-2016)

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