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About LinkBacksRead more.We discover if Sapphire can make a capable Navi 23 card.
Read more.We discover if Sapphire can make a capable Navi 23 card.
OcUK have it at £375 for interested parties:
https://www.overclockers.co.uk/sapph...gx-39p-sp.html
Wake me up when we have mid-range prices.
CAT-THE-FIFTH (12-08-2021),Nelly. (13-08-2021)
Unfortunately the Stockholm Syndrome gamers have,will probably mean people will just buy! buy! buy!Originally Posted by simonpreston
I think you're misunderstanding Stockholm Syndrome. What we have is a supply constrained/over-demand market, which means if people need a GPU they have to pay inflated prices (by recent standards). I don't think anyone is happy about it or in any way feels affinity with AMD or Nvidia as a result of the supply constraint, it's simply a case of needs must. But didn't you recently buy a 3060ti? Did you do that out of affinity with NVidia?
Maybe I should have said buy at silly street prices!
The RX6600XT uses a tiny mainstream 237MM2 GPU with a tiny memory bus. The RTX3060TI FE uses a Navi 22 class GA104 which is 100MM2 bigger. One is a low tier enthusiast card,the other a mainstream one.
When people are justifying cards massively over RRP as fine there is a problem. So £50,£100,£200,etc. Scalpers do this as it works. People are calling it a "bargain" just because the market is wonky. They have got so jaded they have accepted the pricing so it is "Stockholm Syndrome" IMHO. You see it in the sort of prices people are willing to pay.
Yet all the other parts you can get,are under the same constraints yet seem fine. CPUs even have dropped in price. Everything seems fine.
The RTX3060TI I got was exactly at RRP,and was 40% faster than the GPU it replaced,ie,the RTX2060 Super,whilst the price was cheaper than the RTX2060 Super for a lot of its life. It also maintained its RRP even after the "supply issues". Nvidia could have easily made it EOL and let the market rip - yet they chose not to.
The RTX3060TI has 20% higher performance and nearly 2X the RT performance of the RX6600XT,and was considered decent value by Hexus:
Nvidia extends the reach of its gaming Ampere architecture by releasing the best value model yet. GeForce RTX 3060 Ti takes much of the '70's goodness and distils it down to a £369 price point.Good value if available at £369
The RTX2080 Super was well over £500. An RTX3060TI FE at £369,is 2/3 the price and faster.
Look where the RX6600XT is on that chart.
The RX6600XT is using a GA106 equivalent GPU and costs the same as a RX5700XT. Hence why Hexus says the following:
AMD also didn't use a local retailer for its reference models. Hence unlike Nvidia,in 2021 you couldn't find any in the UK. They are always over RRP here.Stuck between a rock and a hard place, Sapphire does all it can to make the RX 6600 XT tempting. Unfortunately for the company, the retailer price needs to drop to £299 for this to be worthy of a shopping list.
By buying products like the RX6600XT at nearly £400 you are telling Nvidia,they are "charging too much" for a lower end enthusiast GPU like the RTX3060TI FE.
So the reality I can see it slowly disappearing its FE model. We can then have the other POS,ie,the RTX3060 replace it entirely.
Then the RTX4060TI can be nearly £500,and the RX7700XT over £500,and the whole 60/600 series GPUs pushing £400,maybe more. I would love to be wrong,but unless of them flinches they can form a little cartel.
We better hope Intel hopes to shake the market up a bit!
Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 12-08-2021 at 03:57 PM.
It's clear now, AMD are more than happy to remain complicit in price fixing.
CAT-THE-FIFTH (13-08-2021),Nelly. (13-08-2021)
It's clear now, that companies are not charitable entities are are willing to make profits on selling products.
Neither are consumers who are not charities to prop up companies! The same companies who get billions in tax breaks,etc from the US taxpayer(like charities). IIRC,in 2018 Nvidia did even pay any Federal taxes in the US:
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/16/thes...s-in-2018.html
So to surmise,no one is a charity,be it a company,worker or consumer. A company wants its "margins",a worker wants their "margin" and a consumer wants their "margin". A company wants to charge the most,lower production costs,pay the least tax and pay its workers the least. A worker wants to get paid the most,pay the least tax and spend the least amount of time doing it. A consumer wants to get the most they can,get the best service and pay the least. All about maximising personal margins. At some point we all meet in the middle.
It is the capitalist way.
Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 13-08-2021 at 11:25 AM.
Nelly. (13-08-2021)
Also RTX3060Ti £500 - £650
RTX3060 £530+
Looks like the RX6600 is a bit of a bargain just now, compared to Nvidia cards.
If you are sticking to only that retailer. The problem for AMD is that we can get Nvidia FE cards from Scan at much better prices than AMD cards.
I think i get where Cat is coming from on this, and it's why i was over defensive with you the other day (apologise for that). I struggle to understand why anyone would defend a company that's seen revenue from what they bought grow by more than %60 while having to pay more than ever, my first thought is that they're captive customers (Nvidia + AMD) and they feel a need to justify being treated so badly (paying way more).
I mean less than 6 years ago entry level GPU's were $150-200 (GTX 950-60), even less than that for a Radeon GPU. In the last 2-3 years entry level is now more than $350, that's not good for PC gaming and it's not explained by any of the many reasons I've heard for why like commodity prices (yes they're high but no higher than they were in 2010), or that demand is high (i don't doubt it is but from what i understand they have a good grip of the supply chain so enforcing something like one card per customer or a maximum markup percentage can't be that hard, surely).
CAT-THE-FIFTH (13-08-2021)
I get you. Trying to understand the reasons behind something isn't necessarily the same as defending a company, though I can see it might come across like that.
On one hand, I'm also frustrated that while I used to be in the market for top or near top end cards, with a similar proportional budget these days I'm barely able to get low-mid range cards, but on the other hand it's not a like for like comparison and ignores the extra performance we're getting on an absolute level (it just feels less because even more performance is available - if you pay more).
I'm also old enough to remember when PC components (and games) cost way more than they do today and much of that was for one of the same reasons they're getting expensive (relatively) these days - lower volume compared to days when every household had a PC that needed a gpu.
That's not meant to be a defence of the current prices - I wish they were lower and I am putting my money where my mouth is - I'm still gaming on a 1060 because I don't feel the current cards offer good enough value for me. But other people have different opinions on value as can be shown by how many are buying cards, like several on these forums, and that's their prerogative. I really feel for the people who *need* a GPU, as they're the ones having to pay inflated prices to get the supply.
The big issue with the RX6600XT/RTX3060 is they are smallish die sub 300MM2 GPUs being pushed up the pricing tiers. If you have looked over the last 5~6 years they have generally came later on and were under $300.
The larger dies,ie,104 type and AMD equivalents were above $300. Something like the GA104/Navi 22 are those larger 300MM2~400MM2 dies. Go back to the GTX970 - it was $330,GTX1070 it was $379. Vega 56 and the R9 290 was $400. So roughly 300MM2 and above.
The reason the RTX3060TI FE at $399 is "ok value" is because its an enthusiast class die.Heck,even the RX6700XT at $480 is probably slightly overpriced,but sort of in the price class of a Vega 64(and actually better than the HD7970 series).
Go back to the GTX1070,GTX1070TI and GTX1080. The RTX3060TI is where the GTX1070 was,the RTX3070 is where the GTX1070TI was,and the RTX3070TI was where the GTX1080 was. Sort of similar in RRP pricing,die size and binning.
Now if you look at where the $700 GTX1080TI was,it was the third tier GP102 bin(there were two Titan Pascal GPUs above it). So going by the current range,Titan Xp=RTX3090,Titan X=RTX3080TI and RTX3080=GTX1080TI.
So the RTX3080 is sort of at Pascal pricing,but Nvidia gain has mucked around with the naming scheme. Now if you look at the RX6800,RX6800XT and RX6900XT,at least at their RRPs,they are technically priced a bit lower,but sort of in the range. Since AMD hasn't made a 500MM2+ GPU for years it's sort of within the general market. AMD has always priced its flagships according to what Nvidia has priced them. The Fury X was priced in according to the Maxwell pricing structures.
However,we saw two big jumps in GPU pricing in the last decade. One was the jump from Fermi/HD6000 to Kepler/GCN. This essentially increased top end GPU price a lot. Maxwell/Hawaii brought it down again a bit,but Turing was the next big jump. But again Ampere/RDNA2 brought it down a bit,but not as much at the top end as people think. Its just the RX6800/RX6900 series was so good,Nvidia had no real choice.
So Nvidia has sort of pushed the naming up one tier with Ampere/Turing but they are roughly what you would expect just going via history for the higher end SKUs.
But what has happened this generation,both companies have basically pushed up the pricing of their smaller GPUs,and I believe it is so they can upsell people to spending extra on the higher margin,higher performance models,a tier or two above.
This is why the RX6600XT and RTX3060 are not fantastic improvements over the similarly priced RX5700XT/RX5700 and the RTX2060. They are good improvements over the much cheaper RX5600XT/GTX1660TI.
An example is the RTX3060 being a second tier salvage compared to laptop models,and being the lack of an FE. The same goes with the RX6600XT,no reference models,so no chance of RRP really being hit for more than the launch period.
This is why the RTX3060/RX6600XT RRPs are just barely adequate - any more and soon the GA206,and Navi 33,will be £400+ and probably have another 20% improvement over the similarly priced GPUs of today.
The only way these companies might do something more,is if they are concerned enough about what Intel is doing to both pre-empt them beforehand,to stop Intel gaining any foothold in the dGPU market.
Edit!!
To add to an already overlong post - Gibbo on OcUK is hinting prices will go up over the next few weeks. So I suppose if you want an RX6600XT,then probably the best time to get one then! MILD also said Nvidia is dropping more RTX3060 series stock over the next few weeks as a response,but September it might fizzle out again!
Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 13-08-2021 at 02:01 PM.
Scan, Overclockers, Ebuyer, Currys. etc. You will NOT find MRSP prices on Nvidia cards from any of them.
That's not true for Scan as they are official source in the UK of Nvidia FE.
There is a limit of one per address etc and drops are seldom, but everyone in the UK who managed to get Ampere FE card, did so from Scan.
Last edited by kompukare; 14-08-2021 at 03:48 PM.
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