Insulating walls

[htid]

I moved into a new flat yesterday (though I've not spent much time there yet). It's in an old house, probably pre 1900, which has been seperated into 8 flats and I'm on the top level. It seems pretty warm but I spoke to the previous tenant a few days ago and he mentioned the bedroom does get very cold. There are fitted wardrobes and the back of them is the exterior wall, on which the previous tenant showed me has some mould/damp (not even sure the difference to be honest). He said that those walls seem to be very cold and he reckons that's the reason for the cold room, which sounds logical, so my idea was to insulate those walls. I've spoken to the landlord and she says the freeholder is organising repointing outside, so what I plan to do is use something to get rid of the mould, paint that wall with anti mould paint and then insulate it. Now I am far from an expert when it comes to DIY, but my plan was to buy some of this, cut it to size, attach it to the wall somehow and then put a piece of MDF in front. Since it's the back of the wardrobes, it doesn't matter if it doesn't look 100% perfect. The landlord said I can do whatever I want and she's happy to reimburse me, but she's a nice woman who just owns that flat so she's not loaded, so I don't want to make her pay loads.

Does that sound like a good idea? Will it help keep the room warmer? If she's happy to pay for it I'm thinking I may as well do it, but if it's not going to make any difference whatsoever then it might not be worth it. Also I'm not sure if attaching the insulation board directly to the wall is the correct way to do it, are you meant to leave a gap?

Thanks for any advice!

[SHare]

Is the affected wall brick or is it plasterboard? Before you do anything you really should get to the bottom of the damp problem, no point in just hiding it as it'll eventually come through whatever you cover it with.

Assuming it's brick I'd be inclined to think you'd need to create a gap with some strapping then stick up the insulating boards but I'm sure someone will know exactly how it should be done.

[flearider]

is it rising damp or comming from the roof ?? or the pointing outside ??? covering it will make it worse .. the cold will be the mosture in the air harder to heat than dry air ..ask your landlord for a dehumidifier £40 and check to see if that room has insulation over it in the loft ..
when i moved into this house there was 1200mm but just round the hatch ...lol

[scaryjim]

One issue is that any kind of insulation has to be properly fitted or it won't do its job properly. If the room is genuinely cold and damp then frankly the landlord needs to get it sorted properly. Are you planning on staying put a few years? If so I'd see how it goes for the next few weeks (after that we'll hopefully be getting out of winter into spring anyway) and if it does get cold and damp in that time talk to the landlord about getting it insulated before next winter. If they're arsey about it at all talk to the council's private housing department - there's minimum standards that rented property has to meet and a cold damp room generally isn't acceptable!

Certainly don't do anything at your own expense, though - if you are going to fund a repair for the landlord to reimburse then get that in writing from the landlord before you spend any money and keep all the receipts etc.

[roto41]

I moved into a new flat yesterday (though I've not spent much time there yet). It's in an old house, probably pre 1900, which has been seperated into 8 flats and I'm on the top level. It seems pretty warm but I spoke to the previous tenant a few days ago and he mentioned the bedroom does get very cold. There are fitted wardrobes and the back of them is the exterior wall, on which the previous tenant showed me has some mould/damp (not even sure the difference to be honest). He said that those walls seem to be very cold and he reckons that's the reason for the cold room, which sounds logical, so my idea was to insulate those walls. I've spoken to the landlord and she says the freeholder is organising repointing outside, so what I plan to do is use something to get rid of the mould, paint that wall with anti mould paint and then insulate it. Now I am far from an expert when it comes to DIY, but my plan was to buy some of this, cut it to size, attach it to the wall somehow and then put a piece of MDF in front. Since it's the back of the wardrobes, it doesn't matter if it doesn't look 100% perfect. The landlord said I can do whatever I want and she's happy to reimburse me, but she's a nice woman who just owns that flat so she's not loaded, so I don't want to make her pay loads.

Does that sound like a good idea? Will it help keep the room warmer? If she's happy to pay for it I'm thinking I may as well do it, but if it's not going to make any difference whatsoever then it might not be worth it. Also I'm not sure if attaching the insulation board directly to the wall is the correct way to do it, are you meant to leave a gap?

Thanks for any advice!

I've got side tracked, I have come on to this site for an entirely different reason and promised myself I would not get involved in these type of threads,--ever but here goes.

But first it begs the question, how does your neighbour know that your bedroom is warm or cold?

On the more serious questions you have, first understand that some rooms in houses are simply cold or for that matter warm, it is just the way it is no matter what you attempt.

The difference between damp and mould is damp is what causes mould, they are different.

However there are various reasons for damp amd mould.

You don't have rising damp, that is generally for basements and ground floor levels although I have seen and rectified some extreme examples of it.

You say your landlady will re-point the affected wall, well that helps, ( is a must if really poor ), to a degree but if the brickwork is severely weathered other remedies will have to be undertaken as well as pointing.

Fixing insulating board will not resolve things at least not the way you had in mind, like us, walls need to breathe.

So long as the exterior of the wall is not continually damp so allowing ingress in to your bedroom, the issue maybe a little easier to fix.

It's a 1900 property, I think in this instance the mould you are seeing is surface kind caused through moisture/damp staying on the surface/wall paper/finish.

So what should you do?

Forget the anti mould paint for now and MDF which will make matters worse, in the first instance pull out the cupboards and wash down affected wall/s/mould with a strong solution 40/60 bleach/water ( don't forget the Marigolds ), a thorough wash down, do the skirting boards, pull the edge of the carpet back, wash the floor boards/area as required.

Next, avoid pushing cupboards back against walls, I know this can be inconvenient but nothing creates damp spots/areas and mould then this practice of shoving things tight against walls, especially walls that get their fair share of battering from the elements.

Next, what happens in a lot of properties and I suspect is the case with your bedroom, little or no ventilation of any kind, the movement of air is restricted or simply stays still.

For those who don't like to leave windows open, a simple 16 inch desk/ pedestal fan works wonders to move air around in such areas, put it on a plug in timer, every two hours for 15 minutes when room is empty or not in but try to keep room warm.

Of course there are portable dehumidifiers, they can work but are noisy, still need to wash the walls though but they work and room extractors with humidistats they all have their place as does anti-mould paint.

Any MDF used should be of water resistant grade and in the first instance a solvent primer/undercoat should not be used on such material if you had painting in mind.

Lastly, DIYers, builders engineers, all of us have become pretty dismissive of damp/mould, we see so much of it and deal with it but mould is unpleasant stuff, it really,really,really is and its spores can have a dreadful affect on peoples lungs/lives especially those of kids.

You don't have that kind of mould as such, it's hopefully light/medium surface mould and easily dealt with but keep on top of it, keep that air moving, keep the room warm.

[GoNz0]

i got quoted 3 grand to fix my damp issue, all it took was the air brick clearing out to allow the air to flow under the floor boards and the heating putting up to a suitable level, job done.

in your case getting the pointing done and removing a dead air space on an external wall will probably have the same effect.

arranging to get the pointing done is not good enough, they are failing to maintain the property so get on the case for a fast result as mould is a health risk.

mine was an internal wall, reason being the air brick was blocked with soil that had raised over the years, when it rained in came the water that sat against the solid brick wall between lounge and kitchen.

who knows if anything came from the trading standards complaint agains the damp proofing company!

all it took was a look under the floor baords and a trip outside with a spade.

[htid]

Thanks for the advice everyone. The trouble here is (and I know it's no real excuse), she's just a normal woman who has moved in with her boyfriend, she can't sell it so she's renting it literally just to cover the mortgage. I know it's her responsibility, but I'll feel really bad after 2 days of having moved in, telling her she will need to rip the fitted wardrobes out (they are actually fitted so there's no way to simply just move them away from the wall) and then fix the mould. It sounds like an expensive job.

On the point of the air not flowing, well I don't mind leaving the door open so air can move a bit better, but if the wardrobes stay in, there's no way to have air flowing within the wardrobes as they'll be full of boxes etc.

Regarding the cold issue, is that really the case, that some rooms are cold and no matter what you do they will always be cold? Even after having a decent sized radiator on for 2 hours? The reason I was going to insulate was simply because when I had the radiator on in the bedroom, then opened the fitted wardrobe, I could feel a definate coldness inside the wardrobes, hence I thought insulating the back wall of them (which as I said, is the exterior wall) would help keep it warmer...?

Oh and for the record, I didn't say my neighbour, I said the previous tenant (who was there cleaning when I brought some things around)

[0iD]

I've owned a few old properties & universally with this type of house is that the cavities at the top tend to be non existent so you 'can' get penetrating damp from the outside if it's badly pointed. I used to find also that once they were double glazed & chimneys were blocked off you got moisture saturated air problems behind large objects like wardrobes.

Basically the only decent fix is to put an airbrick in & re-point if/where necessary.

[Domestic_Ginger]

It's in an old house, probably pre 1900, which has been seperated into 8 flats and I'm on the top level.

So definately not rising damp. The wall is colder so I would say condensation is causing the damp. Double glazed or single paned windows?
Are the walls cavity walls or single skin? If single then more chance of penetrating damp, if cavity then it is maybe bridged but it starts somewhere.
Does the mold start at the top or is it thicker? Coming from the roof space?
Guttering okay on the outside?

You can get sheet specifically designed for linig internal walls. They are like sticky polystyrene iirc and if they are inside a wardrobe you should not really need to cover them or lightly attach them so they can be removed if needed. How insulating is the wardrobe; it may be worth cleaning the mold, seeing if leaving the doors open stop it from coming back. Most of these questions have been asked. For mould there is a dettol mould remover in a green spray bottle. Its the nuts.

[peterb]

I'd tend to go for condensation, and not rising damp. However, if the outside wall is rendered and the rendering is damaged, you could get penetrating damp, or you could get it if the guttering is leaking and water runs down the wall when it rains.

AS for rooms being hot or cold, rooms with outside walls tend to lose heat quicker, for obvious reasons, and as has been mentioned, if you are on the top floor, checking the loft insulation is worthwhile.

I can understand your comments about the landlord (lady) and if she also lives in the house, it makes for a much better living in 4experience if you get on with her - but it is your (and her) interest to keep the property in good repair, both for her longer term investment, and letting potential, and yours for your health and comfort. And if you arrange for repairs, and they are subsequently found to be substandard, you might get into an unpleasant disagreement about liability.

roto41's advice about getting air moving and treating the mould/mildew growth that is there seems sound though, and easily implemented.

You don't mention what heating you have, but it might be worth keeping heating on at a low level when you are out as convecvtion current will help move air.

[scaryjim]

... The trouble here is ... she's just a normal woman ...

No! Bad htid, stop thinking that way. She is a landlord, and she therefore has a responsibility to you to maintain the property.

She's obviously been doing this a while if there's a previous tenant before you, so it's not just that she's moved in with her boyfriend and can't sell her flat - she's made a concious decision to rent the flat out instead of trying to sell it. It doesn't matter *why* she's decided that. It's like the house we're moving to; the landlord has decided to downsize from his old family home, and he's a first time landlord - but he still has all the responsibilities and obligations of a landlord. And I will not let him get away with not fixing things just because he's "a normal bloke who's decided to downsize" - if you choose to be a landlord you need to act like one and take on the responsibilities of one, otherwise you're basically asking people to give you money for nothing. Never feel guilty about asking your landlord to make reasonable repairs. It may well be that the wardrobes don't need ripping out, but if you don't tell her about it nothing's ever going to happen and neither of you will know. At least if you tell her she can get someone in to look at the problem and start getting quotes on what it'll cost to have the problem fixed...

Now, man up and tell her to sort it out

[htid]

Sorry Mr scaryjim (you certainly live up to your name!)

I will definitely tell her, as I do realise that the longer it is left, the worse it will get and the more it will cost her to fix it. I just can't help but feel like the bad guy for 'forcing' her to spend money on it when I've only just moved in. After all, she could just say "ok it's not worth the effort" and just give me a months notice and then I'm really in trouble! But at the end of the day, I know it's her responsibility and will definitely not just put up with it.

As for the heating situation, I can't remember exactly the situation (I've only been in twice so far) so will have a look and reply tonight.

[scaryjim]

Sorry Mr scaryjim

You are forgiven

I just can't help but feel like the bad guy for 'forcing' her to spend money on it when I've only just moved in.

As peterb also pointed out, actually you're doing her a favour. Just leaving the problem will only make it worse, and it could potentially be a lot more expensive to make good after the whole wall becomes riddled with damp than to get it nipped in the bud now.

After all, she could just say "ok it's not worth the effort" and just give me a months notice and then I'm really in trouble!

Do you not have an Assured Shorthold period? It's very unusual nowadays to go straight onto a periodic! Check your tenancy agreement Also, if you say the room isn't fit and she does serve notice on you, go straight to the council's private housing department: they'll be very interested to hear about a landlord who'd rather kick tenants out than maintain their property

I know I come across as a bit ... intense ... on tenancy matters, but letting properties is one of the most poorly handled transactions in this country - on both landlords' and tenants' sides - and it really irks me when people who obviously know what they *should* be doing try to rationalise not doing it! I'll try to be a little less ... intense ... about it in the future

[doyll49]

You many just have a condensation problem similar to leaving frig open and dripping or frosting up. I have the same problem in my place. Years ago front porch area was added into living space and has uninsulated single layer brick wall. Everything else has cavity insulation and loft insulation. All windows and doors are thermal. As soon as weather turns cool that wall sweats. The colder and wetter it is, the more it sweats. I installed a curtain in porch doorway and dehumidifier on porch and job done. Now wall is always dry and only collect 1/2 gallon of water a month in dehumidifier.

[roto41]

Thanks for the advice everyone. The trouble here is (and I know it's no real excuse), she's just a normal woman who has moved in with her boyfriend, she can't sell it so she's renting it literally just to cover the mortgage. I know it's her responsibility, but I'll feel really bad after 2 days of having moved in, telling her she will need to rip the fitted wardrobes out (they are actually fitted so there's no way to simply just move them away from the wall) and then fix the mould. It sounds like an expensive job.

On the point of the air not flowing, well I don't mind leaving the door open so air can move a bit better, but if the wardrobes stay in, there's no way to have air flowing within the wardrobes as they'll be full of boxes etc.

Regarding the cold issue, is that really the case, that some rooms are cold and no matter what you do they will always be cold? Even after having a decent sized radiator on for 2 hours? The reason I was going to insulate was simply because when I had the radiator on in the bedroom, then opened the fitted wardrobe, I could feel a definate coldness inside the wardrobes, hence I thought insulating the back wall of them (which as I said, is the exterior wall) would help keep it warmer...?

Oh and for the record, I didn't say my neighbour, I said the previous tenant (who was there cleaning when I brought some things around)

I mis-read your first post on several points but assumed the previous tenant had shown you the wall, in other words built in wardrobes but you could see the wall in question, no back to the cupboards.

I am also assuming your tenant showed you all this after you have moved in and assumed for some reason the previous tenant still lived in the property, not that it matters.

But I stick to the advise I gave dealing with mould and moving air about but to go a little further.

I didn't wish to scaremonger as it is so easy to do and none of us save for yourself has actually seen the issue at a hand but perhaps from your description the damp in on the wall so to speak.

I mean if it is not surface condensation/damp/mould then the problem and the remedies could be extensive, taking out the wardrobes, lifting floorboards, treating all timber for dry/wet rot, hack back to brick work, curtain wall and the wall itself, apply a waterproof render and then a plaster finish and so on, then there is the exterior work, pointing and so on, it will get expensive for the LL.

I think you are being nice about it and diplomatic, you see and understand your LLs situation.

I guess most of us have been in a Joes café where a knife is laid that has a water-stain on it, some of us will just polish it ourselves, some of us will send it back.

However if it is the Ritz or the Hilton the knife goes back, well renting a home or room should be treated in the same way, landlords/landladies have no business renting places they know are damp/have mould or below a standard, it is like any other establishment, there has to be a standard.

The flip side to that coin is your LL may not be in a position to do anything about it but she shouldn't have rented the room,----but she may not have the money to put things right, so now you need to take a view, that is your situation, her problem has now become your problem, unfair on you and should you live with it? take a view, make a decision.

Mean while if indeed it is water,damp ingress through the affected wall and breaking through the backing of the wardrobes, no amount of your possible solutions will fix it, they will make matters worse, it may turn out to be an extensive and expensive fix as stated above.

However if it is surface only then try the advice given.

Damp, movement of air, water, gas, electricity, it is all about flow and return.

Many of us who care to will remember the explosion of louvre doors during the 80s and 90s.

Those of us who installed and/or removed them may recall that while built in cupboards that had such doors and installed against exterior walls,---while some areas may have smelt musty most didn't suffer mould, there is a reason for that.

I can only advise to try some of the tips given for surface damp/condensation/mould, try not to pack things in the wardrobe or against the affected area, ( I know that defeats the purpose of a wardrobe ), leave the wardrobe door open a little.

Perhaps if possible your LL will allow you to install some vent grills in the cupboard doors, top and bottom.

Buy a heat tube bar, ( heating bar for green houses ), install that safely, dead cheap to buy and run but the air still needs to move.

But all of that is only effective with surface issues.

Oh and for the record, I can't resolve your disbelief as to whether leaving a radiator on for two hours in a room, it will remain cold, I think not but that is not what I wrote.

Either because of perception or actuality, there are many homes/properties where it is stated "it is the coldest or warmest room in the house" regardless of what one does to achieve the opposite, it just is.

[Allen]

I normally find the following works quite well:

"Hey wall! Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!"