Your opinion on this house...

[Saracen]

I would see if you can cut him out of negotiations. Deal direct with the seller. The estate agent still gets his cut, but your deal isn't reliant on that muppet getting his 'arris in gear... Or ask if there's another agent you can deal with, as you think he's an idiot. Make sure the seller knows he's an idiot as well...

That .... except that I wouldn't bother with the "idiot" bit.

My attitude is that the agent is an employee of the vendor, with whom I am proposing a major contractual relationship, and that the vendor is in control, not the agent.

So .... politely and carefully, but very clearly, explain to the vendor that you are interested and prepared to negotiate, but that due to the attitude of the agent, you won't deal with him. Of course, the vendor may not want to deal direct, as he's going to pay the agent either way.

So it's a power thing. Does he want to sell the house more than you want to buy, or the other way round? Because the answer to that is going tohave a potentially major effect on the outcome of any offer negotiation.

My attitude, be it house, car or whatever, is that no matter how keen you are, never ever EVER look like you're not prepared to walk away. Because if you come over too keen, you're at their mercy.

So, my approach would be :-

- approach the vendor, and
- explain you're interested and prepared to offer, and
- you're a cash buyer (be prepared to prove you have the money)
- you are therefore a very good catch for the vendor, and therefore ....
- not dealing with the agent is a condition, a red line, if you like.

And personally, given that the agent is a dick, I would be prepared to walk away if the vendor won't go for it, because I've dealt with that kind of agent before, and I'm just not prepared to do it again.

That approach achieves two things. First, you either get the agent out of the loop up front, or you find out the whole deal is not a go-er. So walk, forget it and find something else. And if you do cut the agent out, then you have established a position of power with the vendor, in that he/she/they know you're quite willing to walk. That'll help with negotiating.

But make no mistake, trying to establish a strong position can go wrong, and you end up walking anyway. You HAVE to be prepared to walk. But if you aren't, you risk getting walked over. So for me, ir's a balance between being keen enough to be taken as a serious buyer, while not so keen that the vendor can dictate terms.

Which brings me back to where I started - you have to get the vendor to where he wants/needs you more than you need/want him, and as a cash buyer, your chances of that are pretty darn good ...if you're prepared to use and leverage that advantage.

[Saracen]

Depends on your competition really. Sometimes a recent price drop can attract a attention that was missing before. We saw one house that had been steadily being reduced, thinking that most people would expect it to continue being reduced, only it just happened that this round there were loads of interested parties. For the house we ended up buying we got it because we offered quite close to asking, where the competition didn't. When the competition subsequently upped their offer the sellers had already decided we would be the buyers because we weren't trying it on.

If it's the right house then offer what you can sensibly afford. We might have over paid by 10k by not being cheeky, but we've got the perfect house we wanted, and I'd happily pay 20k over the 25 or whatever years for that.

Entirely agree, subject to the caveat that the size of the offer isn't the only factor, and indeed, may well not be the most important one.

If I were selling, I may well take £250k from vendor A over £260k or £ 265k from vendor B if, for instance, B's offer comes with a chain of 6 or 8 others, because the odds of it falling apart are far, FAR higher. No deal is guaranteed until you complete, have the keys and possession, but the 'cash buyer' card is SO powerful, unless we are in a hugely strong seller's market (and, IMHO, we aren't) that it's a huge shame not to play it for all it's worth.But it is a bit of a risk.

[Saracen]

II would think their response would be 'deal with the estate agent, that's what he is there for'.....

That's possible.

So you have to decide just how badly you want this house.

My response would be "he's rude, obnoxious and hung up on me twice. If you want an offer, we do it direct. If not, just tell me and I'll leave you in peace for your agent to find a buyer he doesn't feel inclined to be rude to".

Then give him my phone number, and tell him "call me if you change your mind .... but don't wait too long to do it. I'm looking at other properties".

And walk. Ball in his court. But be aware, at that point, it's a battle between you to see who blinks first, because whoever does, loses control.

Remember, however much you like this place, there's loads more out there. It might take timeto find it, but there are. And even if you cave, don't get too emotionally attached to any property, because a very large proportion of deals fall through, no matter how keen you are.

[Dareos]

Contact the owners, tell them you have an offer but the agent is being difficult. They may kick him to the kerb

[Dareos]

Saracens points are well made, see what happens when I read a post, then hit reply 15 mins later when I get out the shower

The chain thing confuses me, doesnt really happen up here, seems an incredibly scrappy way to do things

[ik9000]

oh the chains! Someone needs to find a better system. SOooo much hassle there. And don't get me started on gazumping/gazundering. The system in this country needs an overhaul. Keeping on track however +1 to what Saracen has posted above. Now go get 'em son.

[Andeh13]

Had a missed call from the agent on the way home, I need to think it over. At the same time as him not taking me seriously, hopefully he will have walked away from the viewing realising I was serious and I am in the financial situation to take this house off his website. The agent will also be keen to sell the house (as its been on his website & having viewings for almost a year now....) and he has the ability to ''advise'' the seller. This could be useful seeing as there are several issues with the house, namely kitchen, bathroom & heating all 15+ years old, along with the wallpaper, fireplace surrounds etc etc all which could be brought up again as to why the offer is lower then they expected.

Truth be told had someone turned up on my doorstep offering what i finally accepted on my place I would have been very inclined to tell them 'no thanks'....I just happened to have an agent who was very persuasive & liable (similar age /attitude to me) and made me accept the offer with his impeccable rational/logic. Something I wondered an awful lot at the time (see other thread ) but I am ultimately very pleased I did!

A late 20s guys turning up on the doorstep on a saturday morning may well not impress them ('thats why I pay the estate agent...') and if they pass it on to the agent it risks upsetting him - loosing us this house. And whilst in the big scheme of things we could just walk away and wait for another property to come up, we do really like it, and it meets ALL of our requirements.

Go get 'em son.... oh good grief! I wish I could...


edit: AAAAARRRRGGGGGHHHHHHH

[ik9000]

we do really like it, and it meets ALL of our requirements.

My wife and I thought that about the place we moved into. Turns out it has cockroaches - and that is just the tip of the ice-berg. Like I said, make sure the surveys are bullet proof and don't accept weasel no-come-back caveats. You are paying them to do a job, make sure they do it in such a way that you can pursue them if they miss something. You know, something subtle like the chimney stack not having sound structural support, or the house having quaint cracks of age in the plaster and render that actually conceal a whopping great shear crack up the side of the house due to it being over old mine workings that they neglected to comment on in detail, or the other such things I have heard firsthand from people that these inept "professionals" manage to omit. And don't just get a building surveyor to look at it. Pay a Chartered Structural Engineer (MIStructE for preference) to have a good shifty round as a Structural Survey in addition to the general Building survey done by the other chap. It's amazing what they will find that mr BS didn't notice...

[flearider]

Thanks for all the replies guys. This situation would be easier if the estate agent wasn't a total prat. From the minute I spoke to him he was condescending towards me, every phone call felt like I was trying to sell him something. He is from an 'independent' agency with himself and another as 'partners (their names in the title).

He hung up on me the first two times I called (hung up on me mid sentence then when I rang back picked phone up and put it down again) for general information about the property (when the other 5 estate agents I spoke to that day were brilliant over their respective properties).

Even on the day of the interview with myself and girlfriend he was uninterested, and gave the attitude of having better things to do. We both got in the car and said the same thing, both had picked up on the 'vibe' he was giving out - wasn't even me just being a bit sensitive.


Hopefully he will ring me this afternoon for my views (hah!) and I can discuss the situation with him, realistically though I want to tell him ill speak to him tomorrow after we have had a bit more time to think about it <-- anything gained by playing 'uninterested' prior to offer?

thanks again guys

dude just go round the house if you want it explain how he was and make them an offer .. simples .. they will do one of two things ring him and destroy him or tell him not to ecept ..
either way your going to know where you stand ..
it could be a front he's putting on to get more cash ..

[Zak33]

myself .. looks like one of those houses you cant fence or change your garden .. private roads and all that ..and only being 15 yrs old will prob have walls in it that you can hear everything in the next room(ie:just plasterboard) ..with a cash buy you prob could get somthing better ..
but if you two like it .. why ask anyone else ..

well, I'd disagree with all of that

but that's me

I like that house, it looks nice, the walls will of COURSE be plaster board.. you won't get brick inner walls in a house that age, style design.. no way
well.. I wish you luck... cos I'd bid on that house.. no worries

[Andeh13]

Just an update guys, the offer was rejected - Vendors want at least £265k and with stamp duty adding on £8,500 (flipping tax man! : ) it pushes it above our budget.

With this being one of the first few houses we have seen, and 7 months before we could/can even move into the Banbury area we have had to bow out for now.

We can only hope that with it having been on the market for 6 months at £269k (and a year in total) that in a couple of months/few weeks they may be open to a lower offer but we will have to wait and see for now!

Fingers crossed more properties start to come up in the mean time!

[DeludedGuy]

God...the joys of living outside of London, a whole 4 bed detached house for under £300k!

The house looks lovely, but then again I only know about Victorian/Edwardian terraced houses in London.

[b0redom]

Just an update guys, the offer was rejected - Vendors want at least £265k and with stamp duty adding on £8,500 (flipping tax man! : ) it pushes it above our budget.

With this being one of the first few houses we have seen, and 7 months before we could/can even move into the Banbury area we have had to bow out for now.


We can only hope that with it having been on the market for 6 months at £269k (and a year in total) that in a couple of months/few weeks they may be open to a lower offer but we will have to wait and see for now!

Fingers crossed more properties start to come up in the mean time!

Don't be surprised if you get a call in a couple of days to say they've reconsidered. Like Saracen says, you need to be prepared to walk away. If you demonstrate you are they might come around. We did that on our current place and had a call a few days later to tell us the vendor had changed their minds and would like to accept.

[Smudger]

I agree with Boredom. The fact that you can't move for a while may be a blessing, as you've got time on your hands. Let them stew for a bit...

[razer121]

im curious, why do you want to live in banbury? is there a reason for it? it really is not the best of places, that is coming from someone with experience....

[Saracen]

Just an update guys, the offer was rejected - Vendors want at least £265k and with stamp duty adding on £8,500 (flipping tax man! : ) it pushes it above our budget.

With this being one of the first few houses we have seen, and 7 months before we could/can even move into the Banbury area we have had to bow out for now.

We can only hope that with it having been on the market for 6 months at £269k (and a year in total) that in a couple of months/few weeks they may be open to a lower offer but we will have to wait and see for now!

Fingers crossed more properties start to come up in the mean time!

Remember what I said about who blinks first?

Negotiation over price is always a bit of a game, and I don't just mean house buying. It's true of everything from houses, to salary for a job, to cars, to business contracts .... to a pound of tomatoes at the local market.

You do, if course, have to remember that each side will gave an uncrossable line, and you don't know where the seller's line is .... but they don't know yours. See, if I'm buying, I might well tell the seller (and his agent) that £x is the limit of what I can afford, but you can probably assume it actually isn't, because I'm risk-averse enough to NEVER seek to buy right at the limit. If nothing else, if you can only just afford £250k, and you buy the house with a mortgage at, say, 4.5%, what do you do if the economy goes tits up (more tits up, I mean), and you suddenly find mortgages are 5.5%, or 7%?

Thus is not an academic question. It's more or less what happened inthe late 80's / early 90's. Rates shot up, and my monthly mortgage payment nearly doubled over a year or so. I nearly lost the house, and clung on by the skin of the teeth, for a year or so. I kept the house only because, by good fortune, I'd bought at quite a bit (about 20%) below my maximum budget.

So now, no way would I stick my neck right out to my maximum possible, which means that despite having told the agent and vendor that £x is my limit, it probably is £x + 20%, and the vendor is going to assume there is some leeway.

So, the game .... you're going to put in an offer below what you're prepared to pay, and they expect it to be below. They're going to reject it, and you ought to have been expecting that. So it's game on.

Stress to the agent that you're a cash buyer, no chain, and in no searing hurry. But decline to increase the offer. Tell him to tell his vendor you're still interested, and prepared to continue if the vendor changes their mind ....provided you hsven't found an alternative, but as the offer is rejected, you will carry on looking.

And then, for pities sake, DO NOT BLINK.

B0redom is right, it's quite possible you'll get a call in a day or two, or a week. If so, that's the vendor blinking. Or, you may have hit his invisible hard limit. In which case, there's loads more houses out there, so get looking.

When I bought one house, I was in your position - cash buyer, no chain, no desperate rush. I made an offer on one house, and it was rejected. So I shrugged and walked away. A couple of weeks later, I get a call - they'd like to accept the offer.

So I told them, truthfully, that I was doing a second viewing of another house, and I was going to do that viewing before considering re-offering on the first one, and I'll be in touch if I decide to re-offer. I proceeded with that second hoyse and bought it .... an identical house to the first one about 200 yards down the road, and 10% cheaper.

So I never bothered to go back and re-offer.

That first vendor held out for 2 weeks trying to get me to blink. Sadly for him, I knew there were more fish in the sea, and bought one of the others.

As I said, it's a game. If you want to do this without pulling your hair out, you HAVE to treat it as such, and not get emotionally invested in any property until you own it, or the stress is horrible.

So wait. If they come back in a few days with a counter offer, be prepared to go up a bit if necessary. If they don't, shrug, accept it was not meant to be and move on to the next one. But for pities sake, don't go straight back with a higher offer. If you do, you'll lose the blinking game and end up paying more, possibly a lot more, than you should.