"Drill All" drill bits

[Ttaskmaster]

But there's also a difference between pro's using tools day-in, day-out, and a DIY-er (me) who might not touch his drill bit collection for months, between jobs, and this job needs a different bit type, or size, from the last one.

Actually there isn't... Most of those I mentioned earlier are old enough to remember when there was no such thing as cheap tools for the occasional DIYer. Tools were mostly good quality, because even the most amateur user still needed a certain level of sharpness and quality in order to achieve passable results.

I don't need these drill bits to last hours and hours of use. I just want them decent enough to fo a few home jobs here and there to a decent DIY quality.

If they're good enough for decent quality DIY, they'll be good enough for professional use.
I use Aldi chisels, for example. They cost £8 for a set of four (¼", ½", ¾" and 1"). Some of the top professional woodworkers in the country use these same chisels, not because they're cheap but because they're good quality, take an edge and have decent bevels.
While these are the rarity and usually would cost a bit more, they're a darn sight better than B&Q level kit... and a good number of amateur DIYers can do a better job than some professionals, partly because they buy kit that is good enough. A bad workman shouldn't blame his tools, but a good one will not have poor tools in the first place.

The downside of the DIY culture and making cheap tools for occasional users is that, either they're so cheap that they won't do a good enough job in the first place, which is why so many people remain 'shoddy' DIYers... or they'll actually break (sometimes even on first use) and ruin your work or injure you, which is another reason people remain shoddy DIYers! This was the whole reason I chose to invest in some proper tools - I've only needed one socket set ever, which was a quality Halfords Pro one with a lifetime guarantee that I've yet to need. Most of my older chisels, planes, screwdrivers, spokeshaves and the like are all at least twice as old as me and still going very strong... and my saws are well over 130 years old. You might not think you need quality tools right this minute, but it will pay off later down the line, even if it's just in resale value or passing down to someone else.

So, if they're so cheap that they seem like a fantastic buy, they're most likely too cheap and you risk only problems.
However, you said they were advertised and demo'ed on a TV shopping channel, of all places, which should be screaming sirens in your head.

I guess it's something like this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/16-All-Seri.../dp/1781241007
This is not only unavailable now, but despite a lifetime warranty, it can't even manage 2 complete stars after 22 reviews.
One person said it arrived nice and quick, so 5 stars.
One said you'd need a full-on pillar drill and even then they'll only last a couple of uses, having broken 3 already.
The rest were all one-star, some citing the reviews on the company's own website.

For £40, you could get three sets of drill bits for each of wood, masonry and metal, possibly even some extra or specialised ones too. Or you could choose from a number of comprehensive sets, all decent brands and still for under £40. This is just up at B&Q, by the way. Go to a proper tool shop and there's even greater choice!

But will they? Or are they a triumph of marketing over engineering.

If they were any good, they'd have been in wide use long ago.
Most innovations in tools just do the same things slightly differently or slightly easier, usually with power and motors. The principles still remain unchanged.

The rest is usually just marketing gumpf, selling you solutions looking for problems... like the chopstick-making jig. You only need a vice and a spokeshave (maybe £50), but someone's found a way to sell you £300 worth of absolute tosh!!
Same with this Drill (naff) All set - Avoid, avoid, avoid.

[philehidiot]

Actually there isn't... Most of those I mentioned earlier are old enough to remember when there was no such thing as cheap tools for the occasional DIYer. Tools were mostly good quality, because even the most amateur user still needed a certain level of sharpness and quality in order to achieve passable results.

Speaking as a highly experienced amateur who has never once hit the upslope of the learning curve, I would argue almost the opposite. I'd say that the amateur needs the better tools as their ability to cope with unpredictability or feel when things are going wrong is far more limited. As is their ability to fix it when it does go wrong. Yes there's a point where improvements are so subtle that an amateur can't exploit them.

I use the example of a cheap allen key, spanner, etc. The experienced person will feel the tool slipping as it begins to round the fastener whereas the amateur will often think it's just the thing coming undone and keep going until the thing is totally destroyed. The more expensive spanner that didn't have such dodgy tolerances at manufacture and wasn't made of such cheesey steel that has deformed subltely with use would not have led to that situation.

[Saracen]

Actually there isn't... Most of those I mentioned earlier are old enough to remember when there was no such thing as cheap tools for the occasional DIYer. Tools were mostly good quality, because even the most amateur user still needed a certain level of sharpness and quality in order to achieve passable results.


....

I take the point. I have a collection of (hand) tools that I inherited from Dad, who in turn inherited them from his Dad ....who, for all,I know inherited them or bought them second-hand.

But that was then.

Tools aimed at pro-users are designed and built with heavy-duty in in a workshop or on a construction site, and for my 'few times a year' use of many power tools, I'm simply not justified in paying fir tools built with that degree of duty cycle, but I would if they were tools of my trade. Case in point, - that angke grinder. It did the job, and it did it as well as a machine at 10x the price would have. But, on a buikding site or in a machjne shop, it msy well not last the month.

It's a bit like lenses for csmeras. Pro's typical buy the best, or the best they can afford, or st a minimum, good enough for the job they need it for. Enthusiastic anateurs do likewise .... or buy 'pro' lenses 'cos, hey, I'll take better pics Be careful how you try go explain the logical fallacy in that. For example, give me Dabid Beckham's boots and I'll still not be a pfo footballer, and the best guitar in the world is not going to make me as good as ... well, about a million amateurs let alone superstar guitarists.


i take ypu point, but my question isn't whether these are are as good at drilling holes as top--brand drills, but whether they're good enough or just garbage with slick marketing, hopefully from someone that's tried them.

[Ttaskmaster]

The more expensive spanner that didn't have such dodgy tolerances at manufacture and wasn't made of such cheesey steel that has deformed subltely with use would not have led to that situation.

I take your meaning and understand enough to agree, to a point.
In truth, though, if you were to polarise it - Professionals will use very cheap and very expensive tools, both with good reason, while the amateur will be best limiting themselves to just the mid-to-high level kit that professionals use.
The "good reason" is that while the really high end stuff has subtle features that only a pro can make full use of, the cheap tools also have certain characteristics that can be put to very good use by a pro - Excessive bend in a card scraper, overly scaloped blade in a wide-mouthed plane, heavy flex in a mortise chisel, things that will really stuff up an amateur, but can be taken advantage of by someone in the right circumstances, who knows what he's doing.

It's like playing music - First you learn what the rules are and how to play to them, then you can learn how to bend the rules and play around them.

Tools aimed at pro-users are designed and built with heavy-duty in in a workshop or on a construction site

I take your point, but those are not the tools I'm thinking of... or the pro-users I'm thinking of, either, to be honest.

Most of those 'Industrial Built' things are designed for ham-fisted amateurs on building sites who haven't a clue about looking after their kit and so need it to be built like that. It's part of disposable culture.
I've bought a couple of those things before. High quality, heavy-duty, industrial-built, big brand name, etc etc. They're sooooo good, that nobody makes them any more.... Within two years, all the companies were marketing newer models and not even the batteries were interchangable. Fast forward several years and there have been several more new models to replace the last ones... and none of them do anything different to the ones from ten or even twenty years ago.

For example, I'm friends with a number of carpenters and joiners - Every one of them sharpens their own handsaws, precisely because they can be sharpened. These are saws that cost only a fiver or so more, but are made for half-milimetre precision and will last a lifetime of use.
The sort of 'heavy duty' saws you get in industry are designed to be used a few times and then chucked. They're horridly imprecise (half-inch precision is the standard in this industry), cannot be sharpened and even the big brand names are mostly cheap junk that no real professional would touch.

The difference is that old school quality can still be had, in both antique tools and some new ones, neither of which usually cost as much as you'd think, but both of which far surpass anything that you'll see being heavily marketed. In twenty years of occasional DIY you might buy six cruddy disposable saws only at £15 each... or you can buy a single precision one for £22 and use it every day for fifty years.

Decent tools remain unchanged for a good reason. Stanley still make Bailey pattern bench planes. They still work the same way. Even the new bevel-up planes from Veritas and Wood River still do the exact same thing as the Stanleys from 1920... and both are bought by professional, amateur and hobbyist alike.

i take ypu point, but my question isn't whether these are are as good at drilling holes as top--brand drills, but whether they're good enough or just garbage with slick marketing, hopefully from someone that's tried them.

I'm not talking about 'top brand' drill bits, either. I'm talking about 'good' drill bits.
I'm talking about people who make furniture for the White House and Buckingham Palace, or make chairs that sell for £6,000, but who still buy those 'good' drill bits from the Specials section of Lidl. So very much the "good enough" sort of thing you're looking for....

And still, despite all the above - these Drill-All bits are not even 'good enough'!

In short - If you want to cut something, you will always need a thin, sharp blade to achieve it. Basic fundamental principle. If the newfangled, well-advertised item doesn't have that, then it will not work no matter what TV channel advertises it.... and so far, all the customer reviews concur.

[philehidiot]

Excessive bend in a card scraper, overly scaloped blade in a wide-mouthed plane, heavy flex in a mortise chisel, things that will really stuff up an amateur, but can be taken advantage of by someone in the right circumstances, who knows what he's doing.

It's like playing music - First you learn what the rules are and how to play to them, then you can learn how to bend the rules and play around them.

I turned my homebase drill upside down and used it as a hammer. That the kind of artistry you mean?

[Ttaskmaster]

I turned my homebase drill upside down and used it as a hammer. That the kind of artistry you mean?

That's certainly way waaaaaaaay out there on the most extreme reaches of 'artistry'... and the italic word there is usually preceded by a well-known four-letter word.

[philehidiot]

Worryingly, my actual hammer is worth about thrice the value of that particular drill.

[Saracen]

....

I take your point, but those are not the tools I'm thinking of... or the pro-users I'm thinking of, either, to be honest.

Most of those 'Industrial Built' things are designed for ham-fisted amateurs on building sites who haven't a clue about looking after their kit and so need it to be built like that. It's part of disposable culture ....

.

I take the point about users. It reminds me of a comment by a guy I was at university with, many years ago. He was an infantry officer, and at the risk of offending some other ranks, he was involved when an MoD idea was to put fancy laser sights on rifles, and asked him what he thought the real world requirements would be.

He said "Can it survive being used to jack up a Landrover and open a can of beans? If not, I advise against".



To be fair, it sounds like the kind of user you describe as "professional" are more what I'd desctibe as ttue craftsmen, or artisans.

Not all "professional" users are ham-fisted cheap building site labour. Case in point - a friend that owns a shop-fitting company. The work to fairly high standards, but not artisan standards, but they need to be not just very good, but FAST .... not least because if they aren't finished on time other trades can be held up and left sitting around doing nothing, waiting.

So they need quality power tools, that will stand quite a bit of daily use, EVERY day. Whether the drill cost £30 or £300 is really neither here nor there, but having one with a plastic gearbox that packs up after 3 months is false economy, if it disrupts and delays a job. So they used good kit .... and carry a spare.

But that's not me. I buy faitly high-end kitchen gear, not because I'm a chef, but because I use it every day, and experience tells me, buy cheap, buy often.

But the drills, unless they are a complete con, look to be ideal fir the amount of times I'd use them. Any given size might get used half a dozen times a year, and some sizes, probably once every five years.

[stevie lee]

I like this forum a lot sometimes. ttaskmasters explained it better than I ever could.

there was a lot more explanation to my story time, but I couldn't think how to words. taskys posts pretty much cover what I wanted to say.



anywho. hard to say whether the 'as seen on tv' drill bits will be any good for casual use if we don't know which ones they actually are.


for example.. may be completely unrelated but these happen to cost £40.


although it does seem daft bending the bit like that while drilling.


few more thoughts on this thread from 2012 about drill all bits https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/o...ls-all.317830/



still doesn't answer whether its good enough for casual use though. judging by the comments, find a cheap bosch set that covers the materials that you want to drill into but don't expect miracles, even the bosch ones are just for casual use so pretty much what you want them for tbh.
(see, not good with words, me not)

like these as an example, for just £21 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bosch-26070.../dp/B001L1RAYQ

[ik9000]

For example, give me Dabid Beckham's boots and I'll still not be a pfo footballer, and the best guitar in the world is not going to make me as good as ... well, about a million amateurs let alone superstar guitarists.


i take ypu point, but my question isn't whether these are are as good at drilling holes as top--brand drills, but whether they're good enough or just garbage with slick marketing, hopefully from someone that's tried them.

i bought a cheap guitar using that same logic. Ground hums, squealy pick-ups and other flaws that a more expensive one wouldn't have. I have learned I sit at the mid-amateur bracket £500-800 per guitar, The sub-£250 bracket is ok, but not enough for playing (regularly) in public. I nearly bought a pro-level £2.5k taylor acoustic. I still pine for it, but I am just not that level.

Same goes for tools, cars, cameras whatever. If I had infinite funds I'd get amazing kit, but I have to cut my cloth according to my means, and also balancing longer term benefits. And that invariably means mid-range good, robust workhorse stuff. Not simply good enough - but preferably better than good enough and also durable/long-lasting. And that is why Boss pedals remain the best selling guitar pedal out there, why Yamaha guitars are, and hopefully always will be, the sweet-spot on the Venn Diagram, and why I will never sadly own a 5d-markIII or an Aston Martin. (sigh). I might get lucky on the 2nd hand market for a Taylor however. Maybe. And if Mrs IK9000 doesn't notice the drain on the current account.

So it's not cheapo Rolson (we've all made that till purchase mistake right?) and it's not high-end leica, dewalt etc. It's consumer and affordable-end of the pro-range Bosch, etc. And it does me just fine.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

i bought a cheap guitar using that same logic. Ground hums, squealy pick-ups and other flaws that a more expensive one wouldn't have. I have learned I sit at the mid-amateur bracket £500-800 per guitar, The sub-£250 bracket is ok, but not enough for playing (regularly) in public. I nearly bought a pro-level £2.5k taylor acoustic. I still pine for it, but I am just not that level.

Same goes for tools, cars, cameras whatever. If I had infinite funds I'd get amazing kit, but I have to cut my cloth according to my means, and also balancing longer term benefits. And that invariably means mid-range good, robust workhorse stuff. Not simply good enough - but preferably better than good enough and also durable/long-lasting. And that is why Boss pedals remain the best selling guitar pedal out there, why Yamaha guitars are, and hopefully always will be, the sweet-spot on the Venn Diagram, and why I will never sadly own a 5d-markIII or an Aston Martin. (sigh). I might get lucky on the 2nd hand market for a Taylor however. Maybe. And if Mrs IK9000 doesn't notice the drain on the current account.

So it's not cheapo Rolson (we've all made that till purchase mistake right?) and it's not high-end leica, dewalt etc. It's consumer and affordable-end of the pro-range Bosch, etc. And it does me just fine.

Well I found with cameras,hifi its all nice and lovely looking at these things in a show. I have handled £5000 pro cameras,and £1000+ headphones,etc. However,its all relative like with TVs. Go into a John Lewis and look at the TVs,suddenly that 49" TV looks meh compared to a 65" OLED,but if you step away for a while,things are not what they seem.

Regarding cameras,a D850 with a 600MM lens might be nicer for the airshow work I do,but in the end all the AF points in the world and all that extra reach,means nothing if you don't find an optimal location,or know how to take pictures. Once you do that you find 8/10 its less the equipment and more your ability to use it. Better equipment helps,but using what you have better helps a lot too.

The same with TVs and hifis -in a normal UK sitting room,etc those extra large TVs or massive floor standers might not be anywhere as practical,especially if don't have detached house,and at the lower normal volumes you need,something cheaper will sound just as great.

Even with tools,it depends on what you are doing - something cheap might be fine for light work,but if you drilling into hard concrete and hard wood,it can destroy equipment so something more professional might be better longterm,but even then there is plenty of more pro grade equipment available secondhand. An example is some of those higher grade cordless drills - get one of those secondhand and they can last years especially if you only use it on and off.

[philehidiot]

I take the point about users. It reminds me of a comment by a guy I was at university with, many years ago. He was an infantry officer, and at the risk of offending some other ranks, he was involved when an MoD idea was to put fancy laser sights on rifles, and asked him what he thought the real world requirements would be.

He said "Can it survive being used to jack up a Landrover and open a can of beans? If not, I advise against".

Ah yes, the old "squaddieproofing" issue. Once it has been proven to not be squaddieproof, it becomes squaddiefied. I personally do buy stuff that will survive being used to jack up a landcover... my last purchase of a belt was one that will take 6000lbs and can be used to hold up my trousers.

[Saracen]

Ah yes, the old "squaddieproofing" issue. Once it has been proven to not be squaddieproof, it becomes squaddiefied. I personally do buy stuff that will survive being used to jack up a landcover... my last purchase of a belt was one that will take 6000lbs and can be used to hold up my trousers.

That belt would come in really useful if you're in the habit of keeping a landrover in each pocket.

Makes me wonder what was used to stitch the pockets into the trousers with.

[Saracen]

....

Regarding cameras,a D850 with a 600MM lens might be nicer for the airshow work I do,but in the end all the AF points in the world and all that extra reach,means nothing if you don't find an optimal location,or know how to take pictures. Once you do that you find 8/10 its less the equipment and more your ability to use it. Better equipment helps,but using what you have better helps a lot too.

.....

Pretty much exactly my point.

I can knock out a tune on a guitar, piano or violin, but whether the violin is a reject from school music class or a Stradivarius isn't going to make much difference.

But .... there comes a point where, to get the effect you want, you need the right2 equipment, and to know how to use it.


As for headphones .... I have long used Stax electrostatics. I love the sound. But they do indeed come at a price.

[Ttaskmaster]

I can knock out a tune on a guitar, piano or violin

Can you do that on a violin with only 2 strings? A guitar with no strings? Can you play the same tune on a piano with no black keys?
That's what the Drill-All bits are like.

To be fair, it sounds like the kind of user you describe as "professional" are more what I'd desctibe as ttue craftsmen, or artisans.

In one sense, yes... but not necessarily making what you'd call 'artisan' products. Staircases, doors, windows and cabinets, mostly. Some timber framing, some park benches, stuff like that.
http://www.jigjoinery.co.uk/page4.html

Fine furniture is often a sideline, or just a private hobby.

Not all "professional" users are ham-fisted cheap building site labour. Case in point - a friend that owns a shop-fitting company. The work to fairly high standards, but not artisan standards, but they need to be not just very good, but FAST .... not least because if they aren't finished on time other trades can be held up and left sitting around doing nothing, waiting.

Yup. Most of those people I spoke of are shop fitters, joiners and carpenters too. The guy who did the President's furniture was a shop-fitter from Manchester, who went and taught woodworking to students in America. The Prez approached him, probably because he was English, and commissioned some cabinets from him. I believe they're in the actual Cabinet Room just up from the Oval Office.
He still teaches and has some excellent videos online. Most of his content is teaching people pretty fine woodworking on a shoestring budget. No need for the marketing hype of the big brands. He even makes drill bits out of nails, and marking gauges using a sharpened screw and a bit of wood. A router is a chisel stuck through a hole in a 2' batten.

So they need quality power tools, that will stand quite a bit of daily use, EVERY day.

But that is not always the big and bulky branded stuff like DeWalt. Too many people see B&Q's higher priced stuff and think that it's either good or 'professional grade', when it's often neither. Much of the DIY world has grown out of tool makers undercutting eachother with cheap junk sold to those who never knew what makes a quality tool, before cornering the market and flooding it with disposable cack that people believe is actually normal quality, because all the adverts say so.

Think of those tools as the "pyrite-plated" HDMI cables of the computing world, with your Drill-All bit-set as the "HMDI cable, long, qualitie lead for computer and PC" that costs 50p from eBay.cn and sold by 'Dodgy Dim-Sum'... and no, that's not a spelling mistake on my part!

But the drills, unless they are a complete con, look to be ideal fir the amount of times I'd use them. Any given size might get used half a dozen times a year, and some sizes, probably once every five years.

They are a con.
They are a con. They are a con. They are a con. They are a con. They are a con. They are a con. They are a con. They are a con. They are a con. They are a con.

They are a con.

They are such a con, I expect half of them wouldn't even drill into the material, while the other half would snap on first use.
Forget your half-dozen times a year, you probably won't get to use them twice before you bin them.
You don't need a Dormer precision engineering set costing £200, but neither should you risk £40 on a set not even fit for purpose, when that same £40 will get you three sets that are widely known to be perfectly good for pro and amateur alike.

They are a con.
However good you think they "look", they are still a con. I'll be surprised if they last you even half as long as you hope, and do a quarter of the job you need.

But you seem utterly sold on them already, so go ahead and get them. I'm sure you know better and they will work perfectly as far as you're concerned.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Pretty much exactly my point.

I can knock out a tune on a guitar, piano or violin, but whether the violin is a reject from school music class or a Stradivarius isn't going to make much difference.

But .... there comes a point where, to get the effect you want, you need the right2 equipment, and to know how to use it.


As for headphones .... I have long used Stax electrostatics. I love the sound. But they do indeed come at a price.

Yeah,Stax sound is quite nice indeed - but considering my Grados have lasted 12 years,I can imagine once you buy one it will last 10 to 20 years easily. Too much modern electronics seems to want to price itself at premium levels,but without the build or longevity.

Having said that I did go to a big hifi show in the weekend,just to see what the latest tech sounded like - apparenly Stax is now owned by the Chinese company behind Edifier! The L700 still sounds awesome as ever,not bad for a 36 year old design!! If you do get a chance,try and listen to a pair of Meze EMPYREAN,they are silly priced but rather interesting. They are made by a Romanian company,but the drive units developed by a Ukranian one. The drive units are rather interesting:

https://audiobacon.net/2018/04/10/me...photo-preview/