"Drill All" drill bits

Something seen and demonstrated, on a TV shopping channel is drill bits allegedly suitable for all or neatly all materials, including wood, metal, masonry and ceramics.

To give an idea, a set of about 15 sizes is, on offer, about £40. Never mind anything else, even two or three good ceramic dtills are normally ging to cost that. And these *** IF *** they perform as stated and apparently demonstrated. would be stunnngly good value if they perform as well as implied.

So, before I blow £15 to £20 on a couple of good cersmic drills, has anybody tried these "Drill All" I tjink they were called?

I mean, personally tried them? Becsuse they just seem WAY to good to be true?


Opinions?

TIA.

You know the saying - if it seems too good to be true...

They may be OK for light duty use. But in answer to your question - I haven't tried them, but I tend to buy branded items for drills, Dormer, DeWalt, Bosch etc.

You and I are of a mind re: that saying, Peter. It is precisely my concern, that they do seem to good to be true. But .... don't look a gift horse in the mouth. ;)

Mebbe, just mebbe ..... well, you know.

Drill all until the coating wears off and its useless. I suspect you can't even sharpen the bits after that either?

Last time I used a drill I turned it upside down and used it as a hammer.

Worked far better.

story time:

back at shopmob, in the workshop. we were trying out our new improved battery powered tyre inflator for use at the flower show. the proper battery was well past it, so that was chucked, on was soldered two wires and battery clamps. then it was clamped onto a spare 50AH 12v battery we had. so our new 12v 50AH portable* pump was born.
now the workshop boss had a motto (after his 30 years vehicle building) "always use the proper tool for the job, cheap ones just make the job take longer or f it up"

(*portable, because mobility scooters have 2 x 12v batteries on em, and they drive about on wheels, just unhook one battery and plug the pump on. voila portable)

this pump was a proper tool. a bodge of a tool, but good enough for the job.

one day someone donated a bunch of tools and stuff, including some drill bits that claimed multi purpose. we thanked them for the donation. 5 minutes after they'd left, boss man said 'do you want these? I aint using these ruddy things in my workshop' so they're now sat in my shed at the back of the drawer still in the wrapping. and im using a bosch set that i've had since I was 11, still going strong.

I wonder if they'll still be in the wrapping when im old and wrinkly....



and that's it for story time,
the vague point is, if someone who for 30 years used any tools, many of which where bodgers wont even touch multi use drill bits, then what actual good are they?

I always stick to the right drill bit for the right job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lost4words

I always stick to the right drill bit for the right job.

---

yup. exactly. Call me a cynic but I wouldn't hold my breath on these. The cutting edge required for wood and soft plastic is very very different from a blade that will handle brick and concrete. That's why masonry bits have the pronounced chisel head whereas wood bits have the narrow spike. Metal needs a different angle again and hardened cutting face.

I broke two 3mm bits last weekend trying to drill my aluminium pedalboard. Turns out metal bits do go blunt, even just using them on wood etc (which for small diameter the bit is the same for both). Bought some proper hardened bosch bits for £3, used a drop of cutting fluid and job done in two mins. You could noticeably see the difference in cut as the swarf was long and spiral (like normal) vs chips and flecks before.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stevie lee

the vague point is, if someone who for 30 years used any tools, many of which where bodgers wont even touch multi use drill bits, then what actual good are they?

---

I hear you, but I'd have more respect for him if he conceded that, despite 30 years experience, he conceded that something might have advanced that he hasn't come across, and tried them.

After all, if we never considered tgat things evolve, we'd all be using manual hand drills and despite having one, I'd much rather use an 18v LiIon-powdred drill. Or, we could still be using a sharpened chip of flint.

It is possible materials/metals tech has changed.

But, you are rather preaching to the choir - hence the "too good to be true" attitude. Nonetheless, the demonstration shows using the bit to drill numerous holes in brick, then regar'd concrete, then wood, the through a car brake disk, then more bricks, then a ceramic tile, includine about a 1/4" from the corner of a tile. Then, they drill through four or five of these all clamped together.

Oh, and IIRC, 10-yr free replacement warranty for any that blunt or break.

I don't believe any drills I have would survive their demo.

Nonetheless, I can't shake the feeling that they cannot be that good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ik9000

The cutting edge required for wood and soft plastic is very very different from a blade that will handle brick and concrete. That's why masonry bits have the pronounced chisel head

---

I thought the chisel head was to survive a hammer action? Not that it helps with cheap bits, I had some masonry bits that came with a cheap rechargeable drill which bent as soon as I turned the hammer action on, but the heads survived :D

I think with these things it depends on usage. I have one of the drill bit kits obviously aimed at occasional DIY use and I think they are great. The drill bits aren't the best quality, but if you are only using them occasionally it will take a decade for them to wear and it means one case contains all your wood, metal and masonry bits as well as a decent selection of screwdriver heads, countersink tools etc so you grab that and you know you have what you need to do a job. This sort of thing: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bosch-Piece...dp/B000P4KRTU/

I do, however, also have a small box of high speed drill bits, because they take some punishment so worth spending more per bit.

I have quite a few of these in various sizes.
https://www.screwfix.com/p/bosch-mul...set-4pcs/95958

They are a great all round bit, I do have various masonry, SDS, Cobalt & Titanium bits for specific jobs but find the multi construction Bosch bits great. I drill tiles, engineering bricks, metal and wood with them, they last ages if you don't overheat them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GoNz0

I have quite a few of these in various sizes.
https://www.screwfix.com/p/bosch-mul...set-4pcs/95958

They are a great all round bit, I do have various masonry, SDS, Cobalt & Titanium bits for specific jobs but find the multi construction Bosch bits great. I drill tiles, engineering bricks, metal and wood with them, they last ages if you don't overheat them.

---

this, with bells.

I also have bosch ones and they do a great job on everything, if you don't make them super hot.

While steel and alloy are good, there are some woods that are tough and those need these drills. Was amazed how fast Laurel blunts everything (chainsaws included) so while drilling the trunks for poisoning the great big buggers, I used these to great effect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saracen

I hear you, but I'd have more respect for him if he conceded that, despite 30 years experience, he conceded that something might have advanced that he hasn't come across, and tried them.

---

A number of my friends have been professional woodworkers for over 50 years. Most were apprenticed to men who, at the time, had been professional woodworkers themselves for nearly 60 years and were using tools that were even older. Each of them will happily explain in great detail about all the newfangled things they've tried in their time (and they've tried most of it) and how nothing has really changed in about 200 years. A few machines have come along that take out some of the donkey work, but the tools themselves still work the same and do the same thing.
Rather, they observe that some engineer has come along and designed some fancy, funky, amazing new tool that is made from space age materials and does 'stuff'... but none of that is what's needed by those actually using the tools, because things just don't work the way for which the engineer has designed the tool.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster

A number of my friends have been professional woodworkers for over 50 years. Most were apprenticed to men who, at the time, had been professional woodworkers themselves for nearly 60 years and were using tools that were even older. Each of them will happily explain in great detail about all the newfangled things they've tried in their time (and they've tried most of it) and how nothing has really changed in about 200 years. A few machines have come along that take out some of the donkey work, but the tools themselves still work the same and do the same thing.
Rather, they observe that some engineer has come along and designed some fancy, funky, amazing new tool that is made from space age materials and does 'stuff'... but none of that is what's needed by those actually using the tools, because things just don't work the way for which the engineer has designed the tool.

---

All true enough.

But there's also a difference between pro's using tools day-in, day-out, and a DIY-er (me) who might not touch his drill bit collection for months, between jobs, and this job needs a different bit type, or size, from the last one.

Case in point. A while back (say, 3 years) I needed a small angle-grinder. I found a basic model, cheap brand (Titan IIRC) for about £15 in a sale. It did the small job I had. It also did two similar small jobs since.

Should I have bought Makita, or DeWalt, or Fein, or whatever, and spent £150 or much more?


I don't need these drill bits to last hours and hours of use. I just want them decent enough to fo a few home jobs here and there to a decent DIY quality.

But will they? Or are they a triumph of marketing over engineering.

I expect for your use they'll be fine. Myself I went down the route of a small selection of good quality bits that won't break and bite me. I've not got many sizes but I have the three main types and enough of a selection to deal with almost any household job that I'm likely to take on. I've always been of the mind that if you buy cheap, you buy twice and I've resolved to stop buying cheap or "magic" tools. They're just not worth it or the damage they cause. I'd rather acquire tools at a slower rate but the ones I have will last. That being said, I'm not going to spend a fortune on semi pro power tools that I really do not need.

Questions are going to be how sharp are they and are they going to retain that sharpness? If they're cheap and made in China then the odds are that the tooling used to make them isn't going to be refreshed as often as it might so the quality and efficacy of those demonstrated might be great as they're from an early batch but the later batches may well be of substantially lower quality with increased tolerances and a lack of sharp bits. Wow that was a gammatical nightmare. Also if they have a coating on them there's a question of how long it'll last and how evenly it'll wear away. A bit with different friction properties in patches around the bit could be... interesting to use. Remember whilst you may not use a bit that has patches in the coating, they don't develop between jobs but whilst you're actually using them so it could catch you out if there's some fancy friction modifying coating on there that develops a gap in use.

Also, say you have bits for stone and bits for metals. The metal bits are gonna be wanting to handle a lot of heat but stability isn't much of an issue and that may well affect the design. The masonary ones don't need to handle the heat and that means the design can be focussed around stability when mid way through the stone something crumbles and the bit tries to go off in a different direction. The same design considerations will apply to how the bit expels waste product - metal, wood and masonary require different kinds of clearance mechanisms and one size does not fit all. For the home gamer is this an issue? Maybe, maybe not but drill bits are cheap and your time is priceless. As is the frustration of having to go out and buy something mid way through what could be a 5 minute job. I'd just get bits designed for the job at hand and remember if you buy cheap, you're gonna be buying twice. Trying to save a few quid on these kinds of things usually just isn't worth it in my opinion.

I've not used ones that claim to do metal and ceramic as well, but I have use combi masonry and wood bits (the idea being that you can hold your piece of wood against the wall and drill straight through) and they seem to work absolutely fine.

I suspect - as with most things - the utility will come down not to the type of bit, but the quality of the manufacture.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saracen

But there's also a difference between pro's using tools day-in, day-out, and a DIY-er (me) who might not touch his drill bit collection for months, between jobs, and this job needs a different bit type, or size, from the last one.

---

Actually there isn't... Most of those I mentioned earlier are old enough to remember when there was no such thing as cheap tools for the occasional DIYer. Tools were mostly good quality, because even the most amateur user still needed a certain level of sharpness and quality in order to achieve passable results.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saracen

I don't need these drill bits to last hours and hours of use. I just want them decent enough to fo a few home jobs here and there to a decent DIY quality.

---

If they're good enough for decent quality DIY, they'll be good enough for professional use.
I use Aldi chisels, for example. They cost £8 for a set of four (¼", ½", ¾" and 1"). Some of the top professional woodworkers in the country use these same chisels, not because they're cheap but because they're good quality, take an edge and have decent bevels.
While these are the rarity and usually would cost a bit more, they're a darn sight better than B&Q level kit... and a good number of amateur DIYers can do a better job than some professionals, partly because they buy kit that is good enough. A bad workman shouldn't blame his tools, but a good one will not have poor tools in the first place.

The downside of the DIY culture and making cheap tools for occasional users is that, either they're so cheap that they won't do a good enough job in the first place, which is why so many people remain 'shoddy' DIYers... or they'll actually break (sometimes even on first use) and ruin your work or injure you, which is another reason people remain shoddy DIYers! This was the whole reason I chose to invest in some proper tools - I've only needed one socket set ever, which was a quality Halfords Pro one with a lifetime guarantee that I've yet to need. Most of my older chisels, planes, screwdrivers, spokeshaves and the like are all at least twice as old as me and still going very strong... and my saws are well over 130 years old. You might not think you need quality tools right this minute, but it will pay off later down the line, even if it's just in resale value or passing down to someone else.

So, if they're so cheap that they seem like a fantastic buy, they're most likely too cheap and you risk only problems.
However, you said they were advertised and demo'ed on a TV shopping channel, of all places, which should be screaming sirens in your head.

I guess it's something like this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/16-All-Seri.../dp/1781241007
This is not only unavailable now, but despite a lifetime warranty, it can't even manage 2 complete stars after 22 reviews.
One person said it arrived nice and quick, so 5 stars.
One said you'd need a full-on pillar drill and even then they'll only last a couple of uses, having broken 3 already.
The rest were all one-star, some citing the reviews on the company's own website.

For £40, you could get three sets of drill bits for each of wood, masonry and metal, possibly even some extra or specialised ones too. Or you could choose from a number of comprehensive sets, all decent brands and still for under £40. This is just up at B&Q, by the way. Go to a proper tool shop and there's even greater choice!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saracen

But will they? Or are they a triumph of marketing over engineering.

---

If they were any good, they'd have been in wide use long ago.
Most innovations in tools just do the same things slightly differently or slightly easier, usually with power and motors. The principles still remain unchanged.

The rest is usually just marketing gumpf, selling you solutions looking for problems... like the chopstick-making jig. You only need a vice and a spokeshave (maybe £50), but someone's found a way to sell you £300 worth of absolute tosh!!
Same with this Drill (naff) All set - Avoid, avoid, avoid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster

Actually there isn't... Most of those I mentioned earlier are old enough to remember when there was no such thing as cheap tools for the occasional DIYer. Tools were mostly good quality, because even the most amateur user still needed a certain level of sharpness and quality in order to achieve passable results.

---

Speaking as a highly experienced amateur who has never once hit the upslope of the learning curve, I would argue almost the opposite. I'd say that the amateur needs the better tools as their ability to cope with unpredictability or feel when things are going wrong is far more limited. As is their ability to fix it when it does go wrong. Yes there's a point where improvements are so subtle that an amateur can't exploit them.

I use the example of a cheap allen key, spanner, etc. The experienced person will feel the tool slipping as it begins to round the fastener whereas the amateur will often think it's just the thing coming undone and keep going until the thing is totally destroyed. The more expensive spanner that didn't have such dodgy tolerances at manufacture and wasn't made of such cheesey steel that has deformed subltely with use would not have led to that situation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster

Actually there isn't... Most of those I mentioned earlier are old enough to remember when there was no such thing as cheap tools for the occasional DIYer. Tools were mostly good quality, because even the most amateur user still needed a certain level of sharpness and quality in order to achieve passable results.


....

---

I take the point. I have a collection of (hand) tools that I inherited from Dad, who in turn inherited them from his Dad ....who, for all,I know inherited them or bought them second-hand.

But that was then.

Tools aimed at pro-users are designed and built with heavy-duty in in a workshop or on a construction site, and for my 'few times a year' use of many power tools, I'm simply not justified in paying fir tools built with that degree of duty cycle, but I would if they were tools of my trade. Case in point, - that angke grinder. It did the job, and it did it as well as a machine at 10x the price would have. But, on a buikding site or in a machjne shop, it msy well not last the month.

It's a bit like lenses for csmeras. Pro's typical buy the best, or the best they can afford, or st a minimum, good enough for the job they need it for. Enthusiastic anateurs do likewise .... or buy 'pro' lenses 'cos, hey, I'll take better pics Be careful how you try go explain the logical fallacy in that. For example, give me Dabid Beckham's boots and I'll still not be a pfo footballer, and the best guitar in the world is not going to make me as good as ... well, about a million amateurs let alone superstar guitarists.


i take ypu point, but my question isn't whether these are are as good at drilling holes as top--brand drills, but whether they're good enough or just garbage with slick marketing, hopefully from someone that's tried them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by philehidiot

The more expensive spanner that didn't have such dodgy tolerances at manufacture and wasn't made of such cheesey steel that has deformed subltely with use would not have led to that situation.

---

I take your meaning and understand enough to agree, to a point.
In truth, though, if you were to polarise it - Professionals will use very cheap and very expensive tools, both with good reason, while the amateur will be best limiting themselves to just the mid-to-high level kit that professionals use.
The "good reason" is that while the really high end stuff has subtle features that only a pro can make full use of, the cheap tools also have certain characteristics that can be put to very good use by a pro - Excessive bend in a card scraper, overly scaloped blade in a wide-mouthed plane, heavy flex in a mortise chisel, things that will really stuff up an amateur, but can be taken advantage of by someone in the right circumstances, who knows what he's doing.

It's like playing music - First you learn what the rules are and how to play to them, then you can learn how to bend the rules and play around them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saracen

Tools aimed at pro-users are designed and built with heavy-duty in in a workshop or on a construction site

---

I take your point, but those are not the tools I'm thinking of... or the pro-users I'm thinking of, either, to be honest.

Most of those 'Industrial Built' things are designed for ham-fisted amateurs on building sites who haven't a clue about looking after their kit and so need it to be built like that. It's part of disposable culture.
I've bought a couple of those things before. High quality, heavy-duty, industrial-built, big brand name, etc etc. They're sooooo good, that nobody makes them any more.... Within two years, all the companies were marketing newer models and not even the batteries were interchangable. Fast forward several years and there have been several more new models to replace the last ones... and none of them do anything different to the ones from ten or even twenty years ago.

For example, I'm friends with a number of carpenters and joiners - Every one of them sharpens their own handsaws, precisely because they can be sharpened. These are saws that cost only a fiver or so more, but are made for half-milimetre precision and will last a lifetime of use.
The sort of 'heavy duty' saws you get in industry are designed to be used a few times and then chucked. They're horridly imprecise (half-inch precision is the standard in this industry), cannot be sharpened and even the big brand names are mostly cheap junk that no real professional would touch.

The difference is that old school quality can still be had, in both antique tools and some new ones, neither of which usually cost as much as you'd think, but both of which far surpass anything that you'll see being heavily marketed. In twenty years of occasional DIY you might buy six cruddy disposable saws only at £15 each... or you can buy a single precision one for £22 and use it every day for fifty years.

Decent tools remain unchanged for a good reason. Stanley still make Bailey pattern bench planes. They still work the same way. Even the new bevel-up planes from Veritas and Wood River still do the exact same thing as the Stanleys from 1920... and both are bought by professional, amateur and hobbyist alike.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saracen

i take ypu point, but my question isn't whether these are are as good at drilling holes as top--brand drills, but whether they're good enough or just garbage with slick marketing, hopefully from someone that's tried them.

---

I'm not talking about 'top brand' drill bits, either. I'm talking about 'good' drill bits.
I'm talking about people who make furniture for the White House and Buckingham Palace, or make chairs that sell for £6,000, but who still buy those 'good' drill bits from the Specials section of Lidl. So very much the "good enough" sort of thing you're looking for....

And still, despite all the above - these Drill-All bits are not even 'good enough'!

In short - If you want to cut something, you will always need a thin, sharp blade to achieve it. Basic fundamental principle. If the newfangled, well-advertised item doesn't have that, then it will not work no matter what TV channel advertises it.... and so far, all the customer reviews concur.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster

Excessive bend in a card scraper, overly scaloped blade in a wide-mouthed plane, heavy flex in a mortise chisel, things that will really stuff up an amateur, but can be taken advantage of by someone in the right circumstances, who knows what he's doing.

It's like playing music - First you learn what the rules are and how to play to them, then you can learn how to bend the rules and play around them.

---

I turned my homebase drill upside down and used it as a hammer. That the kind of artistry you mean?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by philehidiot

I turned my homebase drill upside down and used it as a hammer. That the kind of artistry you mean?

---

That's certainly way waaaaaaaay out there on the most extreme reaches of 'artistry'... and the italic word there is usually preceded by a well-known four-letter word.

Worryingly, my actual hammer is worth about thrice the value of that particular drill.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster

....

I take your point, but those are not the tools I'm thinking of... or the pro-users I'm thinking of, either, to be honest.

Most of those 'Industrial Built' things are designed for ham-fisted amateurs on building sites who haven't a clue about looking after their kit and so need it to be built like that. It's part of disposable culture ....

.

---

I take the point about users. It reminds me of a comment by a guy I was at university with, many years ago. He was an infantry officer, and at the risk of offending some other ranks, he was involved when an MoD idea was to put fancy laser sights on rifles, and asked him what he thought the real world requirements would be.

He said "Can it survive being used to jack up a Landrover and open a can of beans? If not, I advise against".

:D

To be fair, it sounds like the kind of user you describe as "professional" are more what I'd desctibe as ttue craftsmen, or artisans.

Not all "professional" users are ham-fisted cheap building site labour. Case in point - a friend that owns a shop-fitting company. The work to fairly high standards, but not artisan standards, but they need to be not just very good, but FAST .... not least because if they aren't finished on time other trades can be held up and left sitting around doing nothing, waiting.

So they need quality power tools, that will stand quite a bit of daily use, EVERY day. Whether the drill cost £30 or £300 is really neither here nor there, but having one with a plastic gearbox that packs up after 3 months is false economy, if it disrupts and delays a job. So they used good kit .... and carry a spare.

But that's not me. I buy faitly high-end kitchen gear, not because I'm a chef, but because I use it every day, and experience tells me, buy cheap, buy often.

But the drills, unless they are a complete con, look to be ideal fir the amount of times I'd use them. Any given size might get used half a dozen times a year, and some sizes, probably once every five years.

I like this forum a lot sometimes. ttaskmasters explained it better than I ever could. :thumbsup:

there was a lot more explanation to my story time, but I couldn't think how to words. taskys posts pretty much cover what I wanted to say.



anywho. hard to say whether the 'as seen on tv' drill bits will be any good for casual use if we don't know which ones they actually are.


for example.. may be completely unrelated but these happen to cost £40.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoFnoQPrIaI

although it does seem daft bending the bit like that while drilling.


few more thoughts on this thread from 2012 about drill all bits https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/o...ls-all.317830/



still doesn't answer whether its good enough for casual use though. judging by the comments, find a cheap bosch set that covers the materials that you want to drill into but don't expect miracles, even the bosch ones are just for casual use so pretty much what you want them for tbh. :mrgreen:
(see, not good with words, me not)

like these as an example, for just £21 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bosch-26070.../dp/B001L1RAYQ

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saracen

For example, give me Dabid Beckham's boots and I'll still not be a pfo footballer, and the best guitar in the world is not going to make me as good as ... well, about a million amateurs let alone superstar guitarists.


i take ypu point, but my question isn't whether these are are as good at drilling holes as top--brand drills, but whether they're good enough or just garbage with slick marketing, hopefully from someone that's tried them.

---

i bought a cheap guitar using that same logic. Ground hums, squealy pick-ups and other flaws that a more expensive one wouldn't have. I have learned I sit at the mid-amateur bracket £500-800 per guitar, The sub-£250 bracket is ok, but not enough for playing (regularly) in public. I nearly bought a pro-level £2.5k taylor acoustic. I still pine for it, but I am just not that level.

Same goes for tools, cars, cameras whatever. If I had infinite funds I'd get amazing kit, but I have to cut my cloth according to my means, and also balancing longer term benefits. And that invariably means mid-range good, robust workhorse stuff. Not simply good enough - but preferably better than good enough and also durable/long-lasting. And that is why Boss pedals remain the best selling guitar pedal out there, why Yamaha guitars are, and hopefully always will be, the sweet-spot on the Venn Diagram, and why I will never sadly own a 5d-markIII or an Aston Martin. (sigh). I might get lucky on the 2nd hand market for a Taylor however. Maybe. And if Mrs IK9000 doesn't notice the drain on the current account. :vacant:

So it's not cheapo Rolson (we've all made that till purchase mistake right?) and it's not high-end leica, dewalt etc. It's consumer and affordable-end of the pro-range Bosch, etc. And it does me just fine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ik9000

i bought a cheap guitar using that same logic. Ground hums, squealy pick-ups and other flaws that a more expensive one wouldn't have. I have learned I sit at the mid-amateur bracket £500-800 per guitar, The sub-£250 bracket is ok, but not enough for playing (regularly) in public. I nearly bought a pro-level £2.5k taylor acoustic. I still pine for it, but I am just not that level.

Same goes for tools, cars, cameras whatever. If I had infinite funds I'd get amazing kit, but I have to cut my cloth according to my means, and also balancing longer term benefits. And that invariably means mid-range good, robust workhorse stuff. Not simply good enough - but preferably better than good enough and also durable/long-lasting. And that is why Boss pedals remain the best selling guitar pedal out there, why Yamaha guitars are, and hopefully always will be, the sweet-spot on the Venn Diagram, and why I will never sadly own a 5d-markIII or an Aston Martin. (sigh). I might get lucky on the 2nd hand market for a Taylor however. Maybe. And if Mrs IK9000 doesn't notice the drain on the current account. :vacant:

So it's not cheapo Rolson (we've all made that till purchase mistake right?) and it's not high-end leica, dewalt etc. It's consumer and affordable-end of the pro-range Bosch, etc. And it does me just fine.

---

Well I found with cameras,hifi its all nice and lovely looking at these things in a show. I have handled £5000 pro cameras,and £1000+ headphones,etc. However,its all relative like with TVs. Go into a John Lewis and look at the TVs,suddenly that 49" TV looks meh compared to a 65" OLED,but if you step away for a while,things are not what they seem.

Regarding cameras,a D850 with a 600MM lens might be nicer for the airshow work I do,but in the end all the AF points in the world and all that extra reach,means nothing if you don't find an optimal location,or know how to take pictures. Once you do that you find 8/10 its less the equipment and more your ability to use it. Better equipment helps,but using what you have better helps a lot too.

The same with TVs and hifis -in a normal UK sitting room,etc those extra large TVs or massive floor standers might not be anywhere as practical,especially if don't have detached house,and at the lower normal volumes you need,something cheaper will sound just as great.

Even with tools,it depends on what you are doing - something cheap might be fine for light work,but if you drilling into hard concrete and hard wood,it can destroy equipment so something more professional might be better longterm,but even then there is plenty of more pro grade equipment available secondhand. An example is some of those higher grade cordless drills - get one of those secondhand and they can last years especially if you only use it on and off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saracen

I take the point about users. It reminds me of a comment by a guy I was at university with, many years ago. He was an infantry officer, and at the risk of offending some other ranks, he was involved when an MoD idea was to put fancy laser sights on rifles, and asked him what he thought the real world requirements would be.

He said "Can it survive being used to jack up a Landrover and open a can of beans? If not, I advise against".

---

Ah yes, the old "squaddieproofing" issue. Once it has been proven to not be squaddieproof, it becomes squaddiefied. I personally do buy stuff that will survive being used to jack up a landcover... my last purchase of a belt was one that will take 6000lbs and can be used to hold up my trousers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by philehidiot

Ah yes, the old "squaddieproofing" issue. Once it has been proven to not be squaddieproof, it becomes squaddiefied. I personally do buy stuff that will survive being used to jack up a landcover... my last purchase of a belt was one that will take 6000lbs and can be used to hold up my trousers.

---

That belt would come in really useful if you're in the habit of keeping a landrover in each pocket.

Makes me wonder what was used to stitch the pockets into the trousers with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH

....

Regarding cameras,a D850 with a 600MM lens might be nicer for the airshow work I do,but in the end all the AF points in the world and all that extra reach,means nothing if you don't find an optimal location,or know how to take pictures. Once you do that you find 8/10 its less the equipment and more your ability to use it. Better equipment helps,but using what you have better helps a lot too.

.....

---

Pretty much exactly my point.

I can knock out a tune on a guitar, piano or violin, but whether the violin is a reject from school music class or a Stradivarius isn't going to make much difference.

But .... there comes a point where, to get the effect you want, you need the right2 equipment, and to know how to use it.


As for headphones .... I have long used Stax electrostatics. I love the sound. But they do indeed come at a price.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saracen

I can knock out a tune on a guitar, piano or violin

---

Can you do that on a violin with only 2 strings? A guitar with no strings? Can you play the same tune on a piano with no black keys?
That's what the Drill-All bits are like.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saracen

To be fair, it sounds like the kind of user you describe as "professional" are more what I'd desctibe as ttue craftsmen, or artisans.

---

In one sense, yes... but not necessarily making what you'd call 'artisan' products. Staircases, doors, windows and cabinets, mostly. Some timber framing, some park benches, stuff like that.
http://www.jigjoinery.co.uk/page4.html

Fine furniture is often a sideline, or just a private hobby.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saracen

Not all "professional" users are ham-fisted cheap building site labour. Case in point - a friend that owns a shop-fitting company. The work to fairly high standards, but not artisan standards, but they need to be not just very good, but FAST .... not least because if they aren't finished on time other trades can be held up and left sitting around doing nothing, waiting.

---

Yup. Most of those people I spoke of are shop fitters, joiners and carpenters too. The guy who did the President's furniture was a shop-fitter from Manchester, who went and taught woodworking to students in America. The Prez approached him, probably because he was English, and commissioned some cabinets from him. I believe they're in the actual Cabinet Room just up from the Oval Office.
He still teaches and has some excellent videos online. Most of his content is teaching people pretty fine woodworking on a shoestring budget. No need for the marketing hype of the big brands. He even makes drill bits out of nails, and marking gauges using a sharpened screw and a bit of wood. A router is a chisel stuck through a hole in a 2' batten.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saracen

So they need quality power tools, that will stand quite a bit of daily use, EVERY day.

---

But that is not always the big and bulky branded stuff like DeWalt. Too many people see B&Q's higher priced stuff and think that it's either good or 'professional grade', when it's often neither. Much of the DIY world has grown out of tool makers undercutting eachother with cheap junk sold to those who never knew what makes a quality tool, before cornering the market and flooding it with disposable cack that people believe is actually normal quality, because all the adverts say so.

Think of those tools as the "pyrite-plated" HDMI cables of the computing world, with your Drill-All bit-set as the "HMDI cable, long, qualitie lead for computer and PC" that costs 50p from eBay.cn and sold by 'Dodgy Dim-Sum'... and no, that's not a spelling mistake on my part!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saracen

But the drills, unless they are a complete con, look to be ideal fir the amount of times I'd use them. Any given size might get used half a dozen times a year, and some sizes, probably once every five years.

---

They are a con.
They are a con. They are a con. They are a con. They are a con. They are a con. They are a con. They are a con. They are a con. They are a con. They are a con.

They are a con.

They are such a con, I expect half of them wouldn't even drill into the material, while the other half would snap on first use.
Forget your half-dozen times a year, you probably won't get to use them twice before you bin them.
You don't need a Dormer precision engineering set costing £200, but neither should you risk £40 on a set not even fit for purpose, when that same £40 will get you three sets that are widely known to be perfectly good for pro and amateur alike.

They are a con.
However good you think they "look", they are still a con. I'll be surprised if they last you even half as long as you hope, and do a quarter of the job you need.

But you seem utterly sold on them already, so go ahead and get them. I'm sure you know better and they will work perfectly as far as you're concerned.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saracen

Pretty much exactly my point.

I can knock out a tune on a guitar, piano or violin, but whether the violin is a reject from school music class or a Stradivarius isn't going to make much difference.

But .... there comes a point where, to get the effect you want, you need the right2 equipment, and to know how to use it.


As for headphones .... I have long used Stax electrostatics. I love the sound. But they do indeed come at a price.

---

Yeah,Stax sound is quite nice indeed - but considering my Grados have lasted 12 years,I can imagine once you buy one it will last 10 to 20 years easily. Too much modern electronics seems to want to price itself at premium levels,but without the build or longevity.

Having said that I did go to a big hifi show in the weekend,just to see what the latest tech sounded like - apparenly Stax is now owned by the Chinese company behind Edifier! The L700 still sounds awesome as ever,not bad for a 36 year old design!! :p If you do get a chance,try and listen to a pair of Meze EMPYREAN,they are silly priced but rather interesting. They are made by a Romanian company,but the drive units developed by a Ukranian one. The drive units are rather interesting:

https://audiobacon.net/2018/04/10/me...photo-preview/

I've had those Stax's for about 40 years.,The design, manufacturing standards and sound, has IMHO well and truly stood the test of time.

Unfortunately, I can't say the same for either the design or manufacturing standards of my ears. I wouldn't pay that sort of money for cans now. It'd be a waste. The most I'd go to is around £100-£150 and probably for whatever Sennheiser hsd in that range .... provided I liked the sound and comfort. But truthfully, even that would probably be overkill. Fortunately I already have a decent set of Senn's I bought as standby. I don't offhand renember the number but HD500 or HD550 rings familiar.

Oh, and some very nice Shure in-ear buds too.

Oh tried that Audiobacon site but it doesn't like my adblocker, greys/fades out the site and puts a "please consider removing" message over about 80% of my screen.

Sadly, the "close" button doesn't work either, so it's add them to blocker whitelist, or beggar off. I beggar'd off.

They're, of course, entitled to prevent adblockers. But I use one by default, everywhere, and I'm entitled to decline to use their site, as I do elsewhere when this happens, rather than change my principles.

I do not want adverts, period. It'd have to be a site I desperately wanted, or needed to get me to unblock, and it hasn't happened yet. I even pre-record any and all TV I want on ad-carrying channels, and either skip ads, or more likely delete then entirely, before watching. That's how much I loathe adverts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saracen

I've had those Stax's for about 40 years.,The design, manufacturing standards and sound, has IMHO well and truly stood the test of time.

Unfortunately, I can't say the same for either the design or manufacturing standards of my ears. I wouldn't pay that sort of money for cans now. It'd be a waste. The most I'd go to is around £100-£150 and probably for whatever Sennheiser hsd in that range .... provided I liked the sound and comfort. But truthfully, even that would probably be overkill. Fortunately I already have a decent set of Senn's I bought as standby. I don't offhand renember the number but HD500 or HD550 rings familiar.

Oh, and some very nice Shure in-ear buds too.

---

The Stax SR-L700 I listened to sounded excellent,so I am seriously considering listening to the L300 and L500. My Grados are in the £100 to £150 range you mention and I have had them 12 years,and I like the sound from them. I even modded them a bit,so I might just strart tweaking them some more.

I did kick myself for not getting the Senn HD600 for only £100 over a decade ago though.

However,the HD598 series are sub £150 and really comfy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saracen

Oh tried that Audiobacon site but it doesn't like my adblocker, greys/fades out the site and puts a "please consider removing" message over about 80% of my screen.

Sadly, the "close" button doesn't work either, so it's add them to blocker whitelist, or beggar off. I beggar'd off.

They're, of course, entitled to prevent adblockers. But I use one by default, everywhere, and I'm entitled to decline to use their site, as I do elsewhere when this happens, rather than change my principles.

I do not want adverts, period. It'd have to be a site I desperately wanted, or needed to get me to unblock, and it hasn't happened yet. I even pre-record any and all TV I want on ad-carrying channels, and either skip ads, or more likely delete then entirely, before watching. That's how much I loathe adverts.

---

Oops!

I was trying to find this picture:

https://audiobacon.net/wp-content/up...osion-copy.jpg

https://audiobacon.net/wp-content/up...osion-copy.jpg

They were impressive,but I wouldn't pay the price,but was more interested in the tech filtering down to more affordable headphones. Very neutral sounding - can't believe it is based on old Soviet tech!!

BTW,I heard a talk from Ken Ishikawa in the weekend - he is one of the main chaps at Marantz(for 40 years),ie,stuff like the KI Signature series.

Interestingly he said he didn't go and tell you what is the "best" and what the "best sound" for you is a personal preference. However,he did point out the recording was VERY important as was the mastering of the source material.

Really nice bloke and reminds me of what a relative said about how things used to be decades ago when it came to hifi(less PR bumpf and more hands-on).

@Cat

I meant to say I really liked tge Grado sound. The reason I went Sennheiser was about comfort. I used to use them for late night TV after the wife was in bed, so as to not disturb her, and "over-ear" were far more comfy than on-ear.

As for Ken, yup, know him. Not personally, but I know who you mean. I have a KI-Sig CD player, and nearly went for their amp, too.

I also entirely agree about sound being subjective, both to the ear of the beholder/belistener, and very much to the type of music.

When I'm buying hifi gear (not that I much do, these days) I have a series of tracks I use. My start is a soprano called Emma Kirkby, in Bach's Jauchett Gott in Allen Landen (Praise God in All Lands). There's one section where she hits some impressively high notes, and with impressive power. The purity of that sound is breath-taking .... on good equipment. Conversely, there's a Dire Straits drum sequence, and the opening storm sequence in an Acoustic Alchemy disc. They're great for getting really sharp, tight drums.

And so on.

I've often had sales guys suggest I listen to this or that, but I wanr to listen to stuff I both really like, and know well. It works for me, and what others lime to listen to, especially sales staff, doesn't matter.

Also, we seem to have drifted off drill bits just a tad.

But what the heck, it's my thread and I think that subject is exhausted anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saracen

@Cat

I meant to say I really liked tge Grado sound. The reason I went Sennheiser was about comfort. I used to use them for late night TV after the wife was in bed, so as to not disturb her, and "over-ear" were far more comfy than on-ear.

As for Ken, yup, know him. Not personally, but I know who you mean. I have a KI-Sig CD player, and nearly went for their amp, too.

I also entirely agree about sound being subjective, both to the ear of the beholder/belistener, and very much to the type of music.

---

Grados are deffo not as comfortable as Senns,and they leak sound like a sieve!! :p

I did find using a headphone amp actually did help a lot for the Grados,even though they sound good even run off the phone(they are quite low impedence) - luckily you don't need to spend too much on a fancy one either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saracen

When I'm buying hifi gear (not that I much do, these days) I have a series of tracks I use. My start is a soprano called Emma Kirkby, in Bach's Jauchett Gott in Allen Landen (Praise God in All Lands). There's one section where she hits some impressively high notes, and with impressive power. The purity of that sound is breath-taking .... on good equipment. Conversely, there's a Dire Straits drum sequence, and the opening storm sequence in an Acoustic Alchemy disc. They're great for getting really sharp, tight drums.

And so on.

I've often had sales guys suggest I listen to this or that, but I wanr to listen to stuff I both really like, and know well. It works for me, and what others lime to listen to, especially sales staff, doesn't matter.

---

The sales people usually use simpler pieces to try and mask any potential issues with their systems,and some of them will sound good on lots of systems. I tend to have a mixture of tracks I know will test a system in different ways,so try to listen to those. Ended up coming away from some demos of expensive systems and not being that impressed TBH!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saracen

Also, we seem to have drifted off drill bits just a tad.

But what the heck, it's my thread and I think that subject is exhausted anyway.

---

Oops!! I kind of get carried away at times.

:p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH

Grados are deffo not as comfortable as Senns,and they leak sound like a sieve!! :p

I did find using a headphone amp actually did help a lot for the Grados,even though they sound good even run off the phone(they are quite low impedence) - luckily you don't need to spend too much on a fancy one either.





The sales people usually use simpler pieces to try and mask any potential issues with their systems,and some of them will sound good on lots of systems. I tend to have a mixture of tracks I know will test a system in different ways,so try to listen to those. Ended up coming away from some demos of expensive systems and not being that impressed TBH!!



Oops!! I kind of get carried away at times.

:p

---

I kinda invited it with car, cameracand hifi analogies.

Besides, it's interesting.

Bit late to this but I have three sets of headphones. One is a half decent set of in ear jobbies for taking to work which is driven well by the phone. The others are Senny HD280 pro and Grado SR80s. These latter two are both around 10 years old and still utterly fantastic. Totally different sound quality and use - if I want to listen to something and not annoy anyone, it's the closed back but if you want music that sounds... open, then it's the open backed ones all the way. I'm really quite doubtful about buying anything more expensive than these as I think once you breach the £120 mark you're really into the realm of diminishing returns. The other issue is that the bigger ones, whilst lowish impedence are clearly limited by the oomph of the amp in a phone or tablet. This limits them to use from the PC and that's about it as nothing else I own really has quality hardware to drive it (I have a decent sound card).

So, back to drilling holes in a Rasberry Pi server....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by philehidiot

Bit late to this but I have three sets of headphones. One is a half decent set of in ear jobbies for taking to work which is driven well by the phone. The others are Senny HD280 pro and Grado SR80s. These latter two are both around 10 years old and still utterly fantastic. Totally different sound quality and use - if I want to listen to something and not annoy anyone, it's the closed back but if you want music that sounds... open, then it's the open backed ones all the way. I'm really quite doubtful about buying anything more expensive than these as I think once you breach the £120 mark you're really into the realm of diminishing returns. The other issue is that the bigger ones, whilst lowish impedence are clearly limited by the oomph of the amp in a phone or tablet. This limits them to use from the PC and that's about it as nothing else I own really has quality hardware to drive it (I have a decent sound card).

So, back to drilling holes in a Rasberry Pi server....

---

I managed to get a decentish headphone amp for £100,and it makes my SR125 headphones sound better as it can provide more current. Having said that some of the decent soundcards can also have dedicated headphone sections though.

I have listened to headphones costing up to £10000,and from my experience only two or three sounded significantly better to my ears,and none of them were the £3000 to £10000 ones which mostly were dissapointment. But then I heard a pair of SR60s through a very good headphone amp,and they sounded great. Hence,I think your SR80s or my SR125s with a reasonably solid headphone amp will probably be fine for another decade!! :p

I gave up reading this thread as it has gone well off topic.

Anyway, after deciding to have another go at removing the snapped ball of an allen key that I broke in my wife's shock absorber when torquing up the top mount I tried a tn bit, cobalt bit and finally pulled out the Bosch multi construction bit, it was the only one that managed to drill into it and I had it out within 10 minutes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH

I managed to get a decentish headphone amp for £100,and it makes my SR125 headphones sound better as it can provide more current. Having said that some of the decent soundcards can also have dedicated headphone sections though.

I have listened to headphones costing up to £10000,and from my experience only two or three sounded significantly better to my ears,and none of them were the £3000 to £10000 ones which mostly were dissapointment. But then I heard a pair of SR60s through a very good headphone amp,and they sounded great. Hence,I think your SR80s or my SR125s with a reasonably solid headphone amp will probably be fine for another decade!! :p

---

Yeh I use an X-Fi Elite Pro sound card which obviously can provide the oomph.... the floppy connector on the board is falling apart now though and I expect this poor card has little time left. It'll either die due to a lack of power or a lack of driver support as Windows 10 upgrades me out of another functional component. I have considered a headphone amp but to be honest I don't tend to take the beefy headphones out anywhere and I just don't think I could justify the expenditure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by philehidiot

Yeh I use an X-Fi Elite Pro sound card which obviously can provide the oomph.... the floppy connector on the board is falling apart now though and I expect this poor card has little time left. It'll either die due to a lack of power or a lack of driver support as Windows 10 upgrades me out of another functional component. I have considered a headphone amp but to be honest I don't tend to take the beefy headphones out anywhere and I just don't think I could justify the expenditure.

---

Well the latest Windows updates this years caused issues with the onboard sound for some reason,and also the audio interface changed and I couldn't access the optical out to the cheapo DAC I was using to get around it(fail). TBH,combined headphone amp/DACs can be had for under £100 now,especially some of the Chinese ones. The funniest thing is that the Sennheiser headset I use generally requires more power to drive it than the Grados - LOL.

From all-in-one drills to headphones (via ad blocking devices)

Priceless! (For everything else there is Mastercard)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saracen

Also, we seem to have drifted off drill bits just a tad.
But what the heck, it's my thread and I think that subject is exhausted anyway.

---

This isn't a Matt Damon film - You still have to give that story an ending, by reporting on your findings if/when you buy them...!!