Coffee machine for an occasional user?

[lee_evo]

Given the title of your post "a coffee machine for an occasional user", I can recommend a Krupps B2C, I've had my EA8150 for almost three years and it makes a nice coffee depending on your choice of bean.

If you are thinking of Nespresso then you are probably aware that Vertuo machines tie you into buying expensive pods directly from Nespresso until their patent expires 2023, all reports are it makes a nice coffee though. However the the older Nespresso machines use the aluminium style capsules and other options are available from the likes of L'Or and Starbucks.

just something to ponder

[spacein_vader]

DRM for coffee. I've seen it all now.

[Saracen999]

Given the title of your post "a coffee machine for an occasional user", I can recommend a Krupps B2C, I've had my EA8150 for almost three years and it makes a nice coffee depending on your choice of bean.

If you are thinking of Nespresso then you are probably aware that Vertuo machines tie you into buying expensive pods directly from Nespresso until their patent expires 2023, all reports are it makes a nice coffee though. However the the older Nespresso machines use the aluminium style capsules and other options are available from the likes of L'Or and Starbucks.

just something to ponder

'm not actually the thread starter. That was DanceswithUnix, about 3 years ago. I just kinda hijacked it.

Problem is, I started out looking for a relatively low-use machine, but the more I looked, the more I got (am getting) tempted.

I've not looked at that machine. Realistically, there are so many and a lot are very good. Some aren't, though. But I will check it out. My first ever coffee "grinder" was Krups. Bought it in about 1976, but to grind for a filter machine rather than espresso. It still works today, though I use it for certain hard spices, not coffee. But that it still works, some 45 years later, is a testament to Krups quality. Or at least, what it was then.
I don't know if it still is. But it has been, ahem, grinding away for 45 years.

[DanceswithUnix]

I would draw your attention back to https://forums.hexus.net/kitchen-coo...ml#post3929555

where the nice graph says that with enough coffee drunk the B2C is the cheap option. I'm way into the cost savings according to that.

I would also like to point out that while you have been procrastinating over what to buy, I have had about 20 rather delightful cups of coffee that I have been very pleased with I could get way more technical with my machine than I do. Kind of like most modern cameras have a host of manual features that the user never touches, but should the fancy take you there is some playing to be had.

[Saracen999]

DRM for coffee. I've seen it all now.

I have got into a bit of a pickle, haven't I?

I honestly wish I'd never seen anything about that high-end (domestic) Sage. I would probably have bought something like the popularly recommended De-Longhi's, and been happy. But I did. And can't unsee it. I just know whatever I do, I'm going to end up withing I'd done something else.

I mean, I can't tell you what the last few days have been like. How many reviews I've read, how many how-to video's I've watched. Not just machines, either. Oh, no. Grinders, scales, sieves, drippers, mocka pots, and even, just once, sipping spoons. Yup, flipping tasting spoons.

Come on, guys, stop laughing. This is serious.

Isn't it?

[Saracen999]

....

I would also like to point out that while you have been procrastinating over what to buy, I have had about 20 rather delightful cups of coffee that I have been very pleased with ....

Oh, that's totally kicking a bloke while he's down.

Fair point, but ....

[lee_evo]

I'm not trying to confuse you but here are a couple of decent machines at a respectable £299 price point.

https://www.ecookshop.co.uk/ecooksho...sp?pid=6708771

https://www.atlanticelectrics.co.uk/...i303203rw.html

[DanceswithUnix]

Yup, flipping tasting spoons.

Thanks, that gave me a really good laugh

You said you didn't want it turning into a hobby; no mention of turning into an obsession though!

[Saracen999]

I'm not trying to confuse you but here are a couple of decent machines at a respectable £299 price point.

https://www.ecookshop.co.uk/ecooksho...sp?pid=6708771

https://www.atlanticelectrics.co.uk/...i303203rw.html

Oh, believe me, Lee, I don't need help in confusing myself. As this thread shows only to well, I'm pretty expert at confusing myself, all by myself. I'm even confusing myself a bit with this paragraph.

At this point, I'm grateful for any and all attempts at unconfusing me. You've got your work cut out though.

One thing though. I'm not really budget-conscious. That sounds wrong. What I want, I think, is the best blend (excuse pun) of several things, but they're kind-of contra-indicators.

- I don't want "a new hobby", which is what a home barista will be. But I am enjoying getting into more and more detail. I find myself interested in problems, and wanting to get to know how to understand/solve them.

- I don't mind spending quite a bit, but I definitely want to feel, afterwards, that it was worth it. It's more about getting the right solution. The problem is, nailing down exactly what "right" is?

- I am not looking to spend lots for the hell of it. 'Find the most expensive solution and get that' is so not me. But nor is buying to cheap, and regretting it.

That is to say, I don't want buyers remorse for spending too much, but nor do I want it for not spending enough. Put it this way. There are several 'kitchen appliance' threads where I've said "buy cheap, buy often. Buy right, buy once". For instance, blenders. After going through several, over the years, and having them deteriorate, or plain pack up, I went for a Vitamix at the best part of £500. It's expensive, but built like the proverbial brick outhouse. I rather expect it to become a family heirllom, passed down through the generations. Okay, a bit hyperbolic maybe, but you get the point. Much the same applies to food rocessor, and for that matter, food mixer. Despite the overlap between those three, I opted for all three, to get good, solid and hopefully reliable optimum tools for the job. Or at least, within reason.

So ... if I can get past the suspicion that I'll regret £2k on that Sage Oracle Touch, then so be it.

But, if I end up deciding that a couple of hundred quid on a good grinder, then a Chemex, Clever or V60 manual dripper is the way to go, I might end up avoiding espresso machines altogether.

I know it sounds weird, and that I'm saying I don't care if it's £200 or £2000, but that's not quite what I mean. I'd rather spend £200 and be satisfied, than £2000 and regret spending so much BUT I'd also raher spend £2000 and not regret it than spend £200 and wish afterwards that I'd just done it 'properly' the first time.

That is to say, the exact cost isn't my problem. £200, £1000, £2000 .... any of those is fine provided I don't regret it afterwards. I am just not sure what approach, Nespresso, drippers, filter machine, B2C, barista-style machine, whatever, is right. After all, it is ultimately just about decent coffee. But "decent" is oh, so subjective.

[lee_evo]

Lol.. BLENDERS !!!

Please don't get me started on them.. We (by that I mean me) spent £350 on a Blentec 18 months ago, it's only been used to crush ice and make breadcrumbs

[Saracen999]

Lol.. BLENDERS !!!

Please don't get me started on them.. We (by that I mean me) spent £350 on a Blentec 18 months ago, it's only been used to crush ice and make breadcrumbs

So no blended phones, then?

BlendTec was the other candidate for me, but I went Vitamix. I must admit I use it quite a bit. Everything from smoothies to peanut butter. I also tend to buy granulated sugar and zap my own castor and even icing sugar .... though getting the latter into a bag/container without redecorating the kitchen is a challenge. But, simple cheese sauce for pasta, like maybe chicken, ham and mushroom, with a 5 minute cheese sauce. Or a very quick, hot tomato sauce for pasta, but usually I do that on the hob. Oh, and ice cream, from frozen fruit and cream. Talking of which, banana and strawberry milkshake. And pesto. And .... well, you get the idea.

I even blend shredded wheat. No, seriously. It's a sorta Muesli-like substitute. Blend a shr. wheat briefly and slowly. I don't mean nuke it into dust, just break it down. Mix with some spwecial K, and a few cornflakes. Add a couple of chopped strawberries, some chopped dried apricots, raisins, whatever you have and fancy. Instant muesli substiture. and for clarity, chop the fruit with a knife, not the blender. And on that subject, ricemilk? Almond milk. etc.

I love my Vitamix.

[DanceswithUnix]

Are there at least any machines you can dismiss?

For me, the capsule machines are out. What do you do with the spent capsules? Refill them, that's another job. Landfill is wasteful, recycling is is a pain. Having spent grinds that are just food waste (or compost if you are into that) is a lot easier. The lower running cost of the B2C machine vs lower up front cost of a pod machine also favours B2C.

Something more manual than a B2C was out. I'm never going to be more consistent than a robot, not at a task where I don't want to put the hours in.

That left me with what price point to go in at. I think I was lucky here, the machine I got was a pretty good price so I got the sale price feel good factor straight up. At the time I probably couldn't do more than a £500 machine, so selection was fairy easy.


On the subject of kitchen implements, a few months ago I had yet another hand whisk fail on me and bought one of these: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B004VLYQFO/

I didn't know OXO made kitchen implements, but after years of only being able to find what were clearly race to the bottom cheaply made crud that was unreliable and hard to clean, something that just works and then the head can go in the dishwasher is amazing. Well done OXO.

[Saracen999]

....

I didn't know OXO made kitchen implements, but after years of only being able to find what were clearly race to the bottom cheaply made crud that was unreliable and hard to clean, something that just works and then the head can go in the dishwasher is amazing. Well done OXO.

I have a couple of OXO thingies, and while for usually simple hand tools they aren't cheap, so far they've been good value. One, for example, is an apple corer. And yeah, I know. It was a whim, okay? But I actually really like it. It's fast, simple, very effective and doesn't seem to get blunt.

Which brings me to a perfect example of my basic "buy once" principle: kitchen knives.

I have no doubt you know this, but for anybody that doesn't, you can buy what I would class a three "grades" of knives. And yeah, that's a bit of a simplication. There are cheap knives from the average supermarket, there are 'decent' knives, and then there are very fancy, hand-engraved Japanese works of art.

Like so many things, up to a point, you get what you pay for. At the cheap end, what you generally get is something that won't take a decent edge, or if by some miracle, it loses it the first time you slice an onion. At the other end, there's the "Rolls Royce" class - fabulous engineering, walnut, hand-stitched top-grade leather and, yeah, you pay for all that, but you also pay for the name.

Then there are the knives I chose to buy. They're mid-range, price-wise. Not as expensive as Global, et alone those really, really nice Japanese works of art that, while fabulous, I'd be too delighted at the craftmanship to actually use it. I mean, let's face it, back to Katana's of old, the Japanese really know how to work steel. We'll quickly skip over the Japanese car industry of the 60s/70s, and Nissan's that barely made it off the dock before they fell apart with rust, andwere something of a joke. Not that it took them all that long to catch on to the sniggering, and well, the results in the next few decades speak for themselves. US and European car makers haven't sniggeredat Japanese cars for several decades now. Panicked, yeah, but sniggered? Nope.

Anyway, I digress. Again. So, mid-range knives, like, oh, Analon. Decent steel, pretty good edge, not cheap but not expensive. If I were a chef, using knives several hours a day, sure, I'd buy Global or something similar, but for my hour a day, if that, top-end knives would be a wasteful extravagance. I'm not hard up, but a LONG way from wealthy, too. I don't mind paying what I can afford for good quality, but largely on the basis of "buy right, buy once. Buy cheap, buy overand over again".

That applies to knives, mixers and, yeah, coffee machines. Which brings my little diversion back on point - can I eliminate any machines? Yeah. That two grand Sage represents just about the maximum price point. Or maybe, exceeds it. I can do that, and I rather want one, but it just feels a bit too self-indulgent. It would perhaps be like buying Global knives - nice, but a bit too far ... maybe.

Anything beyond that, and for anyone that's never looked, there are a LOT of top espresso machines beyond that, andthat's without getting into commercial machines for which you can go way, way past that. I mean, never mind brewing machines, you can pay more than that (and a lot more than that) for a good espresso grinder, alone.

So, what I have eliminated (unless I win the lottery) is anything much beyond that, and I'm struggling to commit (you may have noticed) even to that far.

My problem is deciding what I want from this? Two questions remain :-

- is it just about "good" coffee? And then, decidingwhat I mean by "good".

- how much time do Iwant to spend learning stuff? Or is it just to pusha button, get a cop of coffee?

- actually, third question - is this about espresso, or just decent coffee?

On the first question, my initial intent was that Nespresso was good enough. And, I have to say, they're not bad. But I've had far better. I have a nasty feeling that, initially, I might be happy with pod coffee but, partly for the reasons you give above, I suspect I might fairly quickly end up feeling .... oppressed, maybe frustrated is a better word .... by not being able to go further.

I know better coffee exists, than that. Nespresso is (IMHO) an environmentally dubious way of getting a reason cup, very quickly and easily. But no more.

B2C? Well, yeah maybe. But really, a BTC machine is trying to get a few steps beyond Nespresso, to bring out more of the coffee flavour, but still, pretty much at the push of a button, with maybe a few option buttons. It's not muchmore complicated, in use, that selecting tea, coffee or chocolate, and milk or not, on a railway station vending machine of the 80s. Yeah, a bit of cleaning and maintenance, but in daily use, push buttons, wait and drink.

Then there's the home barista class. The machines are, in many ways, simpler (better built, typically, but simpler) than B2C but you, the user, has to understand coffee and brewing, know how to dial in, how to judge what comes out to get it right, and so on.

I don't want to go that far, either.

Or more accurately, I don't want to have to go that far.

This is why that Sage machine appeals. The machine is simpler than BTC in one important way - you, the user, get the dry coffee into the brewer (standard portafilter) and the used cake into the bin. It simplifies cleaning, and eliminates the transfer mechanism entirely. So, the rest of the money goes into other features, and what you endup with seems, to me, to be a hybrid, a half-way house, between almost fully auto BTC, and the versatility of home barista.

You can, and I mostly would, use it in auto mode - push a few buttons and insert cup. But you can also control most of the variables of a fully barista type machine. Not quite all, but most. You can change dose, though it's fiddly and not designed to be done regularly. You have to remove a part, loosed a grub screw and adjust a shaft length. But if you want 18 or 19g doses, rather than the 22or 23g that seems to be factory default, you can. Or .... grind manually and don't usethe integrated grinder to distribute the coffee and tamp the puck.

You can just accept temperatures and times, etc, but you can override the defaults. You can save your changes, oryoucan create your own "buttons" (touchscreen, remember, so virtual buttons).

I mean, I could go on, but what appeals to me is that you can used it moreor less like a BTC, except that you have to take the loaded portafilter out of the grinder and stick it under the group head to brew, but you can also do most of what you can do with a barista class machine.

So .... after my initial periodof getting nice coffee, andunlike either Nespresso or BTC machines, I have most (but not all) of the versatilty of barista type machines to tweak for both different coffees, variations in batches of even the same coffee, and even my own personal taste preferences. It just comes at a fairly chunky up-front price.

All of which brings me to my actual quandary .... it's not whether I have eliminated some machines, or even classes of machines, it's about whatI want to be able to do, and whether I'm prepared to pay it to get a cup ofcoffee?

[DanceswithUnix]

All of which brings me to my actual quandary .... it's not whether I have eliminated some machines, or even classes of machines, it's about what I want to be able to do, and whether I'm prepared to pay it to get a cup of coffee?

Fair enough. So it sounds like if it wasn't for the price, then the hybrid machine would be ideal for you. I think you might be over estimating the b2c cleaning, it chucks the little pucks of coffee into an internal bin and that internal bin is a mild pain to wipe out which is a weekly task (sometimes more depending on use).

One thing you might want to consider is others who might use it. Even my wife, who has a degree in IT and isn't fazed by things like replacing car brake pads, was reluctant to try and use the B2C at first as coffee machines tend to be intimidating and covered in pipes. Now she makes me coffee, but I think anything more complicated and coffee would be my job!

TBH I'm starting to think you are over thinking this. Which ever machine you get I suspect will be awesome, and will certainly make decent coffee. Write down the short list, number them, roll a dice, buy that one As long as it starts with beans, and ends with coffee.

There was a time when having a blade grinder to grind your own beans for a filter jug was considered posh

[Saracen999]

....

TBH I'm starting to think you are over thinking this. Which ever machine you get I suspect will be awesome, and will certainly make decent coffee. Write down the short list, number them, roll a dice, buy that one As long as it starts with beans, and ends with coffee.

There was a time when having a blade grinder to grind your own beans for a filter jug was considered posh

On the over-thinking, YGPM. Sent before your post, though, in anticipation of that thought.

On "posh" blade grinders, tell me about it. A Krups blade grinder and a Melitta filter machine at uni in the 70s was, well, I seemed to acquire a surprising quantity of friends.

I still have the Krups 'grinder', and it still works, and a similar filter machine. The results are ... okay, especially compared to instant.

[DanCake]

I bought a Dolce Gusto machine that came with 200 coffee pods. The amount of waste all those used pods create, although they do provide a bag with free postage for recycling.
I ended up buying a refillable pod which works surprisingly well.