Culture, a brief history.

[Butcher]

No, just a bit bored with the petty sniping!

Sorry about that, just a bit tedious when it is like debating a loud speaker; he disregards what is posted and just shoots off at his own tangents.
Makes me not want to bother with Hexus so much as what's the point of posting if it's just to be talked down to?

[atemporal]

anyway let's pull this thread back to abstract thinking

[johnroe]

I do find your choice of feminism somewhat curious, seeing as it has morphed into something not even most women agree with. If anything it is one of the best modern examples of an ideology. Seeing as it is based on warped notion of post modernism and the rather facile idea of the blank slate.

I think the general feminism from the sixties on wards has been incorporated into mainstream culture. So you are as likely to see a female or male protagonist. I think most women think there is a way to go, before they have equal pay, equal access to opportunity and power to change society.

This is being played out in real life everyday; equal pay disputes, female leaders of UK, Germany,etc, changing attitudes to sexual harassment, and maybe because of being inspired by Wonder Woman at a young age, women going on to excel in a chosen career. I think there is a hard core of feminists that maybe get scandalised and are used to turn people against the movement, but that's just media nonsense.

[johnroe]

Sorry about that, just a bit tedious when it is like debating a loud speaker; he disregards what is posted and just shoots off at his own tangents.
Makes me not want to bother with Hexus so much as what's the point of posting if it's just to be talked down to?

'The lady doth protest too much, methinks'. <Idea still flowing through culture five hundred years later.

[SeriousSam]

I think the general feminism from the sixties on wards has been incorporated into mainstream culture. So you are as likely to see a female or male protagonist. I think most women think there is a way to go, before they have equal pay, equal access to opportunity and power to change society.

This is being played out in real life everyday; equal pay disputes, female leaders of UK, Germany,etc, changing attitudes to sexual harassment, and maybe because of being inspired by Wonder Woman at a young age, women going on to excel in a chosen career. I think there is a hard core of feminists that maybe get scandalised and are used to turn people against the movement, but that's just media nonsense.

1. Based on the latest poll I saw, only 7% of women in the UK actually view themselves as feminists. That would suggest that either most women don't think that there is a way to go, or that the current "brand" of feminism doesn't address their concerns. Plus perception is one thing and reality another; there are more women voters then men for example.

2. Apart from corporations like the BBC women are paid the same as men for doing the same job. The gender pay gap is an artefact of an over-simplistic method of calculation, as an average tells you nothing about what is actually going on at a detailed level. This creates the additional problem that we can't have a meaningful discussion about what is actually going on, i.e. the role of biology in choice, how society places value on certain types of jobs etc.

3. Most of the media is actively giving "hard core" feminists airtime to spread their tripe. In fact there are a number of presenters who see it as their "social justice" mission... cough C4. Plus if you take into account that very few women identify as feminists, then perhaps the only ones left are the "hard core". That's even before we start talking about social sciences in academia. Now one of my "hobbies" is keeping abreast of such things, irrespective of stupidity level, so I'm probably more aware of the level of "x is a social construct" malarkey. It is also somewhat ironic that some of the most vocal critics of modern feminism are feminists from the 1960's.

In any case I'd recommend reading up on Eric Weinstein's 4 quadrant model theory, which goes into the "narrative" shenanigans of main stream media.

[johnroe]

SeriousSam>It is very obvious that our culture in the West is being changed by subcultures. Political relationships particularly between the genders is being realigned.

Those sorts of polls are meaningless, it depends on; how questions are asked, loaded, in which communities, who asks the question, current mainstream media stereotyping of what a feminist is.

I think if you agree with equality and freedom of opportunity then you agree with feminism, and that is happening. I think they can always find radicals on any topic, but it's accepted that that's what they are. You'll probably find that Gal Godot is more inspiring.

I find that many in the media/arts/music are expressing political agendas(the West's politics has shifted more to the Right, and they never shut up about it!), but I don't think much about the so called chattering classes, because that's all it is.

[atemporal]

Sorry about that, just a bit tedious when it is like debating a loud speaker; he disregards what is posted and just shoots off at his own tangents.
Makes me not want to bother with Hexus so much as what's the point of posting if it's just to be talked down to?

'The lady doth protest too much, methinks'. <Idea still flowing through culture five hundred years later.

Is that misquoting Shakespeare out of context deliberate? He's not protesting his innocence, rather explaining his frustration. I'm not sure quoting that does anything constructive to help things. You know that "talking down to" bit he just mentioned?

[johnroe]

Is that misquoting Shakespeare out of context deliberate? He's not protesting his innocence, rather explaining his frustration. I'm not sure quoting that does anything constructive to help things. You know that "talking down to" bit he just mentioned?

I mean it the sense of insincerity about 'not want to bother with Hexus', and losing all credibility, because he never offers anything but ...whatever he thinks that is. If he disagrees, form some opinion, don't just moan, it's so boring. But you are right, as the meaning of words change, a phrase can be reinterpreted. Or it can be politicised and used as propaganda, words and phrases change usage. https://literarydevices.net/lady-doth-protest-too-much/

[SeriousSam]

Virtually all modern feminist figureheads / philosophers etc. espouse the view that it is about equality of outcome. Consequently the intersubjective societal perspective is that this is what it now represents. Thus polls are reasonably accurate in that this is how people (women) view feminism. You may disagree with this representation, as is your right, but it doesn't change the reality of the situation. Feminism as a philosophy was about increasing the opportunities and rights of women, but that is not the case any more as their agenda has changed.

Now I don't disagree that western culture is being shaped by subcultures, due to increased information availability via the internet. In addition, the political / social relationships between genders is being realigned. However, not all change is positive and there is a very strong argument that pushing for equality of outcome is a backward step. The whole we must have 50:50 representation in STEM, to undo the effects of "patriarchy", is comical considering that in Scandinavia the gap is bigger. Despite these countries being more "progressive". One might even start to think that men and women tend to make different decisions due to the influence of evolutionary biology. Perhaps in fact that there is a benefit to this being the case.

The only direction in which western politics has made a demonstrable significant shift is up, i.e. towards autocracy. That's not to say that individual countries haven't shifted left or right, as they have. However, trying to work out where the balance sits is now even more complicated as you have to split out social left / right and economic left / right. Germany under Merkel has arguably been trending social left and economic right. Whether that will stay the same due to the fallout from her "all are welcome policy" remains to be seen. In any case about the only other thing you can reliably say about all this is that the polarisation between those further along the axes is increasing.

Anyway you may find https://everythingstudies.com/2018/0...omoid-cluster/ an interesting read in regards to the issue of how postmodernism is oft misunderstood.

[johnroe]

SeriousSam>I think it's a lot more complicated. I think all those feminist writer you mention have different views; and there is a range from among women as well, dependant on their; expectations, life situation, education,etc. The younger generation of women definitely have more opportunity than their mothers, or grand mothers. I think this patriarchy idea is one viewpoint, but then that can also be turned into a form of discrimination. I read various feminist writers at uni(it's mandatory to get a different perspective on the power structures), the likes of Laura Mulvey and Julia Kristeva.

I don't agree about Western politics becoming autocratic, I think there are many conflicting interests and competitive ideologies, and to some degree the political framework is fragmenting. I think in many ways socially and politically the world around us is restructuring, and partly tech is facilitating that. I think the only people who misunderstand the postmodernist project are those that rely on media cliches, and probably not read the books or understood the social context.

[Butcher]

I mean it the sense of insincerity about 'not want to bother with Hexus', and losing all credibility, because he never offers anything but ...whatever he thinks that is. If he disagrees, form some opinion, don't just moan, it's so boring. But you are right, as the meaning of words change, a phrase can be reinterpreted. Or it can be politicised and used as propaganda, words and phrases change usage. https://literarydevices.net/lady-doth-protest-too-much/

Thanks for illustrating my point. If you want opinions, maybe you should respond to others, rather than just shouting from your soap box.

[atemporal]

I read various feminist writers at uni(it's mandatory to get a different perspective on the power structures), the likes of Laura Mulvey and Julia Kristeva.

Are you at uni at the moment? What are you studying? I get the impression you're not the typical com-sci I imagine this forum tends to attract

[Disturbedguy]

form some opinion, don't just moan, it's so boring.

Jesus Christ your ignorance is infuriating. People form opinions, but you dismiss them because they don't align with yours, you then talk down and attempt to be little people.

You bring nothing to this forum than misinformed "opinions" (that you haven't actually formed yourself, but were given to you by some video or something you claim to have read and interpreted.) and snide remarks, some might say it's almost like bullying in that you're essentially trying to tell people not to speak as it doesn't align with you...for the love of god, improve your posts...

[peterb]

Jesus Christ your ignorance is infuriating. People form opinions, but you dismiss them because they don't align with yours, you then talk down and attempt to be little people.

I don’t think user ‘Jesus Christ’ exists - at least not under that username.

However using my demi-god like powers, I’m closing this thread.