Results 1 to 16 of 16

Thread: Moral Question...

  1. #1
    www.dougmcdonald.co.uk
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Bath
    Posts
    523
    Thanks
    5
    Thanked
    20 times in 20 posts
    • DougMcDonald's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus P5B Deluxe
      • CPU:
      • Inter Core 2 Duo E6600
      • Memory:
      • 2 x 2GB - Geil Black Dragon PC6400
      • Storage:
      • 2 x 400GB Samsung Spinpoints (Running in Matrix array) 100GB @ RAID0 + 300GB @ RAID1
      • Graphics card(s):
      • BFG nVidia 8800GTS 320MB OC2
      • PSU:
      • Corsair HX520W modular
      • Case:
      • Lian-Li PC7 II Plus
      • Monitor(s):
      • LG 17" Flat Thingy
      • Internet:
      • Crappy BT 1MB Unreliable wank :s

    Moral Question...

    A guy at work recently mentioned a person had been arrested for sitting in a car using someone elses unsecured wireless broadband.

    This is a bit of a first as I'm aware, but does raise some moral questions:

    Is it theft if you leave your doors and windows open? insurance would certainly not pay out in this situation.
    Legally, you are not tresspassing on private property until you are asked to leave, so is leaving your network unsecured comparible? do you have to say 'get out' before it becomes illegal?
    How does this compare to watching someones TV through their window?

    Is it 'stealing' if the connection is not actually charging the user any more than they pay already? Does stealing bandwidth constitute theft as it's occupying bandwidth you as the recpient of such theft would not be able to use?

    Who is responsible for the content transmitted over your connection? What if they visited illegal sites etc? Where does you ISP fit in the chain of responsiblity.

    These were some of the points we thought about, anyone got anything to add (or even legal knowledge to clarify some of the points we mentioned!)

    Discuss!!!

  2. #2
    Jay
    Jay is offline
    Gentlemen.. we're history Jay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Jita
    Posts
    8,365
    Thanks
    304
    Thanked
    568 times in 409 posts

    Re: Moral Question...

    it is stealing as bandwith is no not "unlimited" anymore.

    As I always say, just becuase you can does not mean you should.
    □ΞVΞ□

  3. #3
    www.dougmcdonald.co.uk
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Bath
    Posts
    523
    Thanks
    5
    Thanked
    20 times in 20 posts
    • DougMcDonald's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus P5B Deluxe
      • CPU:
      • Inter Core 2 Duo E6600
      • Memory:
      • 2 x 2GB - Geil Black Dragon PC6400
      • Storage:
      • 2 x 400GB Samsung Spinpoints (Running in Matrix array) 100GB @ RAID0 + 300GB @ RAID1
      • Graphics card(s):
      • BFG nVidia 8800GTS 320MB OC2
      • PSU:
      • Corsair HX520W modular
      • Case:
      • Lian-Li PC7 II Plus
      • Monitor(s):
      • LG 17" Flat Thingy
      • Internet:
      • Crappy BT 1MB Unreliable wank :s

    Re: Moral Question...

    That is a point we raised, it is often assumed that using someone's connection doesn't cost them anything, but that does assume they have no bandwidth limits, or are not on some form of 'pay as you use' scheme.

    This is where ISP's came into our debate, acceptable usage in the ISP's eyes is down to the account holder. Therefore if your mate comes over and maxes out your monthly limit, it's you, not him/her who is responsible.

    Surely in this example, if you don't lock down your network, you are still responsible for the account usage, whether that be you, or someone else.

  4. #4
    Senior Member ajbrun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    York, England
    Posts
    4,840
    Thanks
    4
    Thanked
    25 times in 13 posts

    Re: Moral Question...

    But if you leave your window and doors unlocked, it's still classed as theft if someone took something without permission isn't it? Surely it's the same if someone has an unsecured wireless network, and someone outside takes some bandwidth without permission?

  5. #5
    Jay
    Jay is offline
    Gentlemen.. we're history Jay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Jita
    Posts
    8,365
    Thanks
    304
    Thanked
    568 times in 409 posts

    Re: Moral Question...

    I would assume that both parties are resposible but I would say that the person not locking down the network could press charges against the person who used it if it could be proved.

    Its not only a bandwith issue we are talking about here its a personal security issue. Any systems on the network with no administrator password would be browsable to some degree.
    Last edited by Jay; 24-08-2007 at 07:22 PM.
    □ΞVΞ□

  6. #6
    Senior Member charleski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,586
    Thanks
    7
    Thanked
    52 times in 45 posts

    Re: Moral Question...

    Obviously there have to be limitations on your responsibility for use of your internet account. If someone downloads kiddie-porn using your WiFi from the street I don't think you should be the one to go to jail. (Though obviously proving that it wasn't you is going to be difficult, and the fact that you didn't secure your wireless is a flimsy excuse on its own.)

    The problem, morally, is that a moral wrong requires that the perpetrator knows he is causing harm to someone else. A person using an unsecured network has no way of knowing if the network's owner is just being generous or just being stupid. Furthermore, legally (according to the BBC), "The Communications Act 2003 says a "person who (a) dishonestly obtains an electronic communications service, and (b) does so with intent to avoid payment of a charge applicable to the provision of that service, is guilty of an offence". If you leave a network unsecured and don't charge people to use your access point, then I don't see that anyone using it is breaking the law. In fact, it could easily be said that an unsecured wireless network is ipso facto an invitation for use by all-and-sundry, so no dishonesty is involved either. IIRC the arrest was made by a couple of bored Community Support Officers, and I don't see it going to trial unless they dig up some dirt on the guy involved.

  7. #7
    The late but legendary peterb - Onward and Upward peterb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Looking down & checking on swearing
    Posts
    19,378
    Thanks
    2,892
    Thanked
    3,403 times in 2,693 posts

    Re: Moral Question...

    Using someone's wireless connection without their permission is probably an offence under the computer misuse act.

    The Theft Act 1968 Section1 (1) states that a person is guilty of theft if: he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it.

    Not sure if a broadband bandwith could be classed as property. However in the days pf phreaking (phone hacking) there were convictions based on the fact that a person was dishonestly stealing a small amount of electricity from the (then) GPO,

    However if you leave your wireless connection unprotected and someone uses it to log into a child porn site, it'll be your door that the vice squad will be knocking at when they have tracked the IP address to you.
    (\__/)
    (='.'=)
    (")_(")

    Been helped or just 'Like' a post? Use the Thanks button!
    My broadband speed - 750 Meganibbles/minute

  8. #8
    Senior Member ajbrun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    York, England
    Posts
    4,840
    Thanks
    4
    Thanked
    25 times in 13 posts

    Re: Moral Question...

    If you pay for anything, that 'thing' should be classed as property shouldn't it, as it has an owner. It shouldn't matter if it's physical property or not. If someone takes an image saved on your computer from you, then you've lost that image forever, so must have been stolen?

  9. #9
    The late but legendary peterb - Onward and Upward peterb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Looking down & checking on swearing
    Posts
    19,378
    Thanks
    2,892
    Thanked
    3,403 times in 2,693 posts

    Re: Moral Question...

    Quote Originally Posted by ajbrun View Post
    If you pay for anything, that 'thing' should be classed as property shouldn't it, as it has an owner. It shouldn't matter if it's physical property or not. If someone takes an image saved on your computer from you, then you've lost that image forever, so must have been stolen?
    I don't think a service is classed as property. Images would come under the copyright or intellectual propert acts. (As does software)
    (\__/)
    (='.'=)
    (")_(")

    Been helped or just 'Like' a post? Use the Thanks button!
    My broadband speed - 750 Meganibbles/minute

  10. #10
    Senior Member ajbrun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    York, England
    Posts
    4,840
    Thanks
    4
    Thanked
    25 times in 13 posts

    Re: Moral Question...

    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    I don't think a service is classed as property. Images would come under the copyright or intellectual propert acts. (As does software)
    I would agree if it was unlimited bandwidth, because then you would be simply paying for a service, but if you have a bandwidth limit, then someone outside will be using part of that limit for which you can never have back. The bandwidth is your property, the net connection is the service.

  11. #11
    Senior Member charleski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,586
    Thanks
    7
    Thanked
    52 times in 45 posts

    Re: Moral Question...

    Quote Originally Posted by ajbrun View Post
    but if you have a bandwidth limit, then someone outside will be using part of that limit for which you can never have back.
    But they have no way of knowing that, and the fact that you're being careless about who accesses your network might simply mean that you don't mind who uses it.

  12. #12
    Senior Member ajbrun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    York, England
    Posts
    4,840
    Thanks
    4
    Thanked
    25 times in 13 posts

    Re: Moral Question...

    Quote Originally Posted by charleski View Post
    But they have no way of knowing that, and the fact that you're being careless about who accesses your network might simply mean that you don't mind who uses it.
    That's true. I was just describing how I thought the term 'property' should be used in this case (no idea if it's correct or not).

  13. #13
    www.dougmcdonald.co.uk
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Bath
    Posts
    523
    Thanks
    5
    Thanked
    20 times in 20 posts
    • DougMcDonald's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus P5B Deluxe
      • CPU:
      • Inter Core 2 Duo E6600
      • Memory:
      • 2 x 2GB - Geil Black Dragon PC6400
      • Storage:
      • 2 x 400GB Samsung Spinpoints (Running in Matrix array) 100GB @ RAID0 + 300GB @ RAID1
      • Graphics card(s):
      • BFG nVidia 8800GTS 320MB OC2
      • PSU:
      • Corsair HX520W modular
      • Case:
      • Lian-Li PC7 II Plus
      • Monitor(s):
      • LG 17" Flat Thingy
      • Internet:
      • Crappy BT 1MB Unreliable wank :s

    Re: Moral Question...

    However if you leave your wireless connection unprotected and someone uses it to log into a child porn site, it'll be your door that the vice squad will be knocking at when they have tracked the IP address to you.
    Yes, we discussed this too, apparently, it's not an offence to view said material, merely to posses it, so therefore if someone uses your connection to obtain 'innapropriate' material, it would be them posessing it, not you.

  14. #14
    The late but legendary peterb - Onward and Upward peterb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Looking down & checking on swearing
    Posts
    19,378
    Thanks
    2,892
    Thanked
    3,403 times in 2,693 posts

    Re: Moral Question...

    Quote Originally Posted by DougMcDonald View Post
    Yes, we discussed this too, apparently, it's not an offence to view said material, merely to posses it, so therefore if someone uses your connection to obtain 'innapropriate' material, it would be them posessing it, not you.
    True, but that is scant consolation while your computer is impounded and the hard drive forensically examined!

    (That of course is after you have been arrested on suspicion and your fingerprints and DNA entered on the national databases)
    Last edited by peterb; 24-08-2007 at 11:06 PM.
    (\__/)
    (='.'=)
    (")_(")

    Been helped or just 'Like' a post? Use the Thanks button!
    My broadband speed - 750 Meganibbles/minute

  15. #15
    www.dougmcdonald.co.uk
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Bath
    Posts
    523
    Thanks
    5
    Thanked
    20 times in 20 posts
    • DougMcDonald's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus P5B Deluxe
      • CPU:
      • Inter Core 2 Duo E6600
      • Memory:
      • 2 x 2GB - Geil Black Dragon PC6400
      • Storage:
      • 2 x 400GB Samsung Spinpoints (Running in Matrix array) 100GB @ RAID0 + 300GB @ RAID1
      • Graphics card(s):
      • BFG nVidia 8800GTS 320MB OC2
      • PSU:
      • Corsair HX520W modular
      • Case:
      • Lian-Li PC7 II Plus
      • Monitor(s):
      • LG 17" Flat Thingy
      • Internet:
      • Crappy BT 1MB Unreliable wank :s

    Re: Moral Question...

    Good point well made!

  16. #16
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    140
    Thanks
    3
    Thanked
    1 time in 1 post
    • mr mister's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Gigabyte 965P-DS4
      • CPU:
      • Intel Core 2 Duo 6300
      • Memory:
      • 2x1GB Geil PC6400 and 2x1GB Crucial Ballistix PC5300
      • Storage:
      • ~1TB
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Nvidia 7800GT
      • PSU:
      • Enermax Noisetaker 600w
      • Case:
      • Lian Li V1000b+II
      • Monitor(s):
      • Dell 2005FPW
      • Internet:
      • 8MB F2s

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Not a very technical Question, but a Question none the less.
    By chip35 in forum Help! Quick Relief From Tech Headaches
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 24-03-2007, 09:05 PM
  2. Personal Question game.....
    By Kitty in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 394
    Last Post: 29-01-2006, 11:50 AM
  3. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 21-10-2005, 08:50 AM
  4. Quick Question: PSU's with 1x120mm fan question
    By philyau in forum PC Hardware and Components
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 05-09-2005, 02:30 PM
  5. What is Question Time
    By Saracen in forum Question Time
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-08-2003, 05:50 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •