Downloading TV shows - is it illegal?

[Brewster0101]

New story from the BBC about Ireland cracking down on file sharers

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/10152623.stm

I admit I do download alot of TV programmes using a bit torrent programme. Me and wife don't watch alot of TV and can't afford or justify Sky + and a freesat box that records. We download programmes we
like and miss from the net. From things like Top gear to Desperate Housewives. We don't use iplayer or 4od as these are restricted to the computer and we don't fancy sitting around a computer to watch TV.

I was wondering if it was illegal to actually download TV shows. We know films and music is a big no no, but where do you stand on TV programmes.

[peterb]

If the programmes are are subject to copyright restrictions (and it would be surprising if they were not) and downloading them is a breach of that copyright it leaves you open to civil prosecution by the copyright owner. If you distribute them, (using a torrent for example) that potentially leaves you liable to greater penalties.

If you download using Iplayer or similar, then the copyright issues will have been negotiated by the BBC (or whoever is providing the content) and is OK, provided you stay within the terms of use stipulated by the content provider.

[Phage]

AFAIK - Yes.
The IP is protected, and this is why iPlayer and the others were created.

[jim]

Ripping music is illegal for heck's sake!

Personal opinion: I don't think there's much wrong with downloading broadcast TV - you've already paid the BBC for the content and the commercial channels will come with adverts. Exactly the same as if you'd recorded it yourself, it's your choice whether you watch it or skip them. Downloading DVDs is a different story altogether. Anyway, all of it is still illegal. Morally though, I don't think there's much wrong with it (before someone comes in talking about viewing figures and so on).

[Rob_B]

I'd always thought of TV as a tricky one, for example my Sky+ box occasionaly fails to record for some unknown reason (Sky just replaced it with a refurb but problem persists, signal?)

Anyway, a couple of 'Lost' episodes failed this series so I may have got them from 'other sources'

Illegal? possibly, but considering I had them on my box, taped from a source I pay to access (Sky) I don't have issue doing that.

Considering the way BT works I have a question….

If I download a TV show (for example) and it is 400MB but I only upload 100MB am I strictly speaking distributing content? You can't do anything with that 100MB, it's not the show, until it is complete it's just bits & bytes (?!)

NB/ I don't pirate films/games (I may have previously done so many years ago - maybe) I disagree with pople who justify those sorts of things in any way, if you've not paid for the content in some way (ie by paying Sky in my example above) or have permission then don't download. Neither do I agree that 1 download = 1 lost sale though.

[jim]

I disagree with pople who justify those sorts of things in any way, if you've not paid for the content in some way (ie by paying Sky in my example above)

Isn't that justifying it though?

[Singh400]

This has been covered hundreds of times. I personally believe that if you pay your BBC licence fee you can view/download BBC content however you want.

Any thing else like from the States is illegal. Simples.

[Rob_B]

Isn't that justifying it though?

I don't think it is, I mean justifying doing it when you have no basis ie you just 'want to watch it' but could never watch it via legitimate means (free or paid)

Funnily enough the South Park episode where they brought up illegal music downloading was on last night...

"Britney had to sell her Gulfstrem 4 and buy a Gulfstream 3, it doesn't even have a remote for it's surround sound DVD system."

[Spud1]

Yes it is illegal unless authorised by the content owner. Thats it really - it's no different in terms of the content between stealing a DVD Box Set or downloading the shows off the internet. The difference there is that you are also stealing the DVD discs from a shop,but as they are the least valuable aspect (worth a few pence) it's a minor thing.

It is just as bad to download any TV show (even a BBC one) from a torrent or other unauthorised download source as it would be to download a movie, a game, an application..it's all the same.

Also yes uploading 100mb of content through a torrent *is* wilful distribution of content. The argument that its just bits and bytes doesn't really hold up to much because those bits do make up part of the show - otherwise you could always use that argument to defend downloading

Some people will pirate, some people won't, and meh that is their choice and I don't think the situation will change much..people will always find a way to do it and so be it.

Please don't try to justify your actions with <insert_excuse_here> though - it doesn't wash. It's illegal plain and simple and you all know it is, it's just stupid to try and justify it.

[peterb]

Just a quick reminder... HEXUS does not condone or encourage illegal downloading, circumvention of copyright protection measures or theft of intellectual property, so while discussions about these issues are fine, descriptions of how to carry out those activities, or posting links to sites that allow those activities is not permitted. (But I'm sure you a;ll knew that anyway )

This has been covered hundreds of times. I personally believe that if you pay your BBC licence fee you can view/download BBC content however you want.

Any thing else like from the States is illegal. Simples.

Yes it has, but the TV licence is NOT a BBC licence - it is a license to install equipment that allows the receipot of broadcast television material - and that includes streaming content in real time off a mobile phone or over the internet. The revenue goes to the BBC - but even if you don't watch BBC channels, you still need a licence.

And while morally ypu may feel that you have a right to view or download BBC content as much as you want, legally you don't - only that which is provided on the terms of the content provider and copyright owner (which is why some programmes are not available on Iplayer for example).

The gray area is recording (or time shifting) material which (IIRC) is permitted for up to 30 days before you should delete it. I don't know if sky boxes do that automatically. Some Iplayer material does have DRM so that it can't be watched after a set time period.

[Rob_B]

The gray area is recording (or time shifting) material which (IIRC) is permitted for up to 30 days before you should delete it. I don't know if sky boxes do that automatically. Some Iplayer material does have DRM so that it can't be watched after a set time period.

Nope, if you recored something on my Sky+ box (anything except movies from the box office I think) it will stay on the box until manually deleted

Seems strange to impose limits on already downloaded content (ie no further bandwidth usage from the person watching) whereas by other means it stays around forever. A certificate expiry issue perhaps?

I was under the impression it's not technically illegal (ie the CPS wouldn't go after you for it) but the rights holder could take you to court over it. Hopefully then the surrounding circumstances would come into play ie

'I Sky+'d Lost but it failed so I downloaded it'
or
'I own the DVD but it scratched so I downloaded it'

I imagine in the real world you wouldn't get done for that, even the article in the OP mentions they're going after sharers (seeders?) not downloaders, I imagine due to the difficulty in obtaining details for 200,000 people or 10 original seeders.

Didn't something get thrown out recently as the copyright owner started a mass lawsuit but due to it being a copyright issue (ie not 'illegal' they have to actually have a separate one for each individual person, they can't lump you all together & sue you as a group?

[mycarsavw]

Lets say you owned the box set of Men Behaving Badly and it became scratched to the point that it would no longer play.

You purchased it legally, you probably watched it when it aired too, can you now download it legally?

The gray area is recording (or time shifting) material which (IIRC) is permitted for up to 30 days before you should delete it. I don't know if sky boxes do that automatically. Some Iplayer material does have DRM so that it can't be watched after a set time period.

All content downloaded using iPlayer expires after 30 days though most of it remains on the iPlayer site for longer.

[Brewster0101]

Lets say you owned the box set of Men Behaving Badly and it became scratched to the point that it would no longer play.

You purchased it legally, you probably watched it when it aired too, can you now download it legally?

You have a right to back up material that you have purchased. I would see downloaded something that you have already purchased is legal as you have already purchased the right to own and watch.

[Spud1]

You have a right to back up material that you have purchased. I would see downloaded something that you have already purchased is legal as you have already purchased the right to own and watch.

You didn't purchase the right to own anything other than the physical media itself though, and the licence to watch is to watch the content from that disk - not from another source such as the internet or someone elses' backup copy.

I think (although not sure on this) that UK law does allow you to make a copy for backup purposes only, but that in doing so you cannot circumvent any copy protection imposed on you as part of your purchase, and that backup must only be used in the event that the original is destroyed. Technically anyway. This copy protection clause makes most moden backups useless or illegal though.

Not certain on this mind as the other angle is that any of the large producers will replace your disks if you send them back, and usually pay a fee to cover the cost of postage and the replacement disks. This will be less than a new price, purely because you are not buying a new licence to watch, simply new media.

So put simply, no, simply buying the DVD's does not make the downloading any more legitimate in the eyes of the law, even if it does keep you morally happy.

[Champman99]

Its a difficult issue for me as well, I do not download any Games, Films, Music or UK TV shows, because (well at least for Games and the UK TV) the legal Digital Distribution is well worked with Steam/D2D, iPlayer, 4OD, and Napster for music etc etc.

However the one thing I do download, is US TV shows. I am a Sky subscriber, so I probably would get them eventually anyway, but I dont like to wait. Is it any worse for me to Sky+ them and fast forward through the adverts that funded them than it is to download the same shows? I'm not so sure, though of course the law probably wouldnt agree.

I would happily watch these shows on a UK version of Hulu with adverts if the shows were released at the same time as in the US. I find watching stuff on my computer at my leisure to be much more convenient, and I would happily sit through some adverts like I do with itvPlayer/4OD at the moment.

All content providers need to do is to provide good legal ways of watching/listening to/playing content online, and accept that their business is changing and their profit margins may not be so great anymore. As Hulu has scrapped it's UK plans, that may not happen any time soon , so I might have to keep my eye patch and shoulder parrot on. I also think that Boxset TV series prices are way too high, but thats a whole other argument.


A note to some of the points made above, I have in the past downloaded a game when I had scratched the disc beyond repair, and then used my legally obtained serial number. Whats the legal standing here - similar to the point of DVD above. I mean alot of this is hypothetical, as it seems most of the legal measures are directed at sharers at present. I think you'd be unlikely to be prosecuted just for replacing scratched discs you still owned, even if you were legally in the wrong, compared to someone who is sharing their whole music collection online.

[Funkstar]

You have a right to back up material that you have purchased. I would see downloaded something that you have already purchased is legal as you have already purchased the right to own and watch.

This is wrong. You are allowed to backup software (this goes back to the floppy disk era), however a CD, DVD or anything similar is not software, so not covered by that clause.