ADSL for 4/5 computers.....this looking ok?

[blockers]

Hi guys.

Hopefully moving to ADSL next week moving on....i have various network pieces lieing basically old pieces that were cheap i.e. £2 for a 24port hub from my brothers school.

Probable network:
ADSL goes into server, most likely 600mhz celly. This has hard drives, and printers/scanners/mp3 cable/digital camera cable connected. This is then left on all the time.

From server network goes to a 24 port hub. I know a hub isnt the best thing, and as it is only 1/10 it will not be great, but work ok, yeah? so i can play games online, and others can browse the net.

From the hub, it goes to my computer, brothers, dad's, and spare room.

Hopefully i can persuade dad to do a huge upgrade and get some nice gigabit stuff. But until then does that network look ok?

Any input much appreciated.

Will.

[Paul Adams]

You've not mentioned any OS - what is the server, and clients?

If it's Windows-based, are you assuming ICS for sharing the broadband connection? (Some online games don't like it, some chat programs can't work through it too IIRC)

Not quite sure what you meant by the speed being 1/10 for the LAN - did you mean 10Mbps?

The setup sounds okay, but bear in mind that a hub will have lots of collisions of data packets when it gets busy - so if you're playing a latency-critical online game and someone starts copying huge files over your LAN that you may well start to get a dicky connection.

Gigabit is overkill, how often do you intend to copying files of such magnitude that you'd notice and appreciate the difference over 100Mbps?

Personally I'd recommend getting yourself an ADSL router with built-in 100Mbps switch, but as a starting point what you said is okay, with those few caveats.

Oh, if you're going to have the ADSL line go straight into any PC please, please, please put a firewall on it, and disable all unnecessary services.

[directhex]

runnign windows on the firewall-type box is... well... silly

and don't forget that due to the retarted nature of hubs, that 10mbit is shared between all machines on the network - so you can only have 1.25 megabytes per second of data moving around the house at once. this will also kill pings for online games if anyone else intends on using the network, and prevent you from, say, storing high-bitrate video on the server.

[blockers]

Thanks very much for the input - super-duper help.

We will be running a collection of windows OS's on computers. 2000pro, winxp, and win2k3, winME occasionally - so they should be easy to set-up.

The hub is 10mbps yeah....i know it sucks. If for example me and my brother are playing games and dad is surfing what pings will i be expecting to get?

btw i forgot to say what speed it was. We will probably get it from Nildram, and 512kbs, unless i can persuade dad that he really does need 1024kbs

Hopefully once we have it all fully set up we will have:
ADSL going into a router with switch, and a wireless connection (we have a couple of lappies that it would be nice to sit in the garden with.) Then all the computers connected into the switch on the router. Is this is a better idea than getting a server with a modem and network card and running the ADSL straight into there and then into a hub/switch?

Once again, all input appreciated.

Thanks.
Will.

[blockers]

Also, i just thought it would be cool to say i had a gigabit LAN even if it doesnt serve much purpose all about bragging rights 'innit!!!!

[Paul Adams]

The hub is 10mbps yeah....i know it sucks. If for example me and my brother are playing games and dad is surfing what pings will i be expecting to get?

Not really possible to guess at that, too many variables - however I would say that if your dad was just doing "general browsing" then you shouldn't even really notice - if he starts a big download or views a PDF or something then you will notice the hit.
It's really going to be a massive hit if someone does a local file copy of a large file - the hub would be crucified and all connections would start to get packet collisions - plus of course if the server itself is the gateway then the file access might cause a bit more overhead too.

Hopefully once we have it all fully set up we will have:
ADSL going into a router with switch, and a wireless connection (we have a couple of lappies that it would be nice to sit in the garden with.) Then all the computers connected into the switch on the router. Is this is a better idea than getting a server with a modem and network card and running the ADSL straight into there and then into a hub/switch?

IMO, having a PC act as a router/firewall is overkill due to the power usage - a modem/router/switch combo is a lot better.
There will be people that have the opposite opinion.

Personally, I'd go for a modem/router/switch device (Linksys and Netgear ones seem most popular) and a separate wireless AP so it can be turned off when not in use.

If you want gigabit LAN connectivity then you'd have to get a separate gigabit switch
No clue what they cost atm.

[nichomach]

If you want gigabit LAN connectivity then you'd have to get a separate gigabit switch
No clue what they cost atm.

Dabs do a Netgear 8-port for £93 inc VAT if that's any use;
GS108UK

[malfunction]

One thing I will say in defense of using a PC as a router is that it makes sense IF you need a central server anyway. I have 2 PCs at home - my 'firewall' also doubles up as a file, print, database and web server (for the LAN only - no-one's allowed in from outside - well not normally anyway)... And it's acting as a DHCP server (which AFAIK all SOHO routers can do) and DNS cache / proxy (which AFAIK most SOHO routers can't do)

Having said that though if you want to upgrade to a switch instead of a hub and add wireless at some point it would probably be much easier to buy an integrated switch / WLAN access point / router / ADSL modem (or separate modem if that's cheaper / better)

Regardless of whether or not you use a PC or a dedicated device as a router / firewall you should connect the ADSL connection to the router / firewall ONLY and then connect the router's internal connection to the switch. Connecting it to the hub will make it broadcast the packets to all machines on the hub which is obviously not the idea.

[blockers]

Seems to be mounting up in cost for gigabit, and i as i have onbaord 10/100 LAN, and my brother has a 10/100 card we would have to get 4 gigabit LAN cards....so i cant be as up to date with computer technology as i would like

So the hub will be ok unless someone is moving a large amount of data round?

Not really knowing anything about routers/switches what type of protection do they offer for unwanted hacking?

Thanks once again guys.
Will.

p.s. can you get routers with more than 4 ports? becuase i would like the flexibility to have more than 4 computers connected. So really an 8 port switch would be best, but i cant seem to find any 8 port rotuers.

[Paul Adams]

So the hub will be ok unless someone is moving a large amount of data round?

Should be fine, yes.
In terms of interering with online games, the 2 causes in your setup would be a large download from a website which would sap the bandwidth, and a very large data transfer on the LAN which would cause collisions and introduce packet loss.
The first you can't really do anything about easily, but the second you could by using a switch rather than a hub.

Not really knowing anything about routers/switches what type of protection do they offer for unwanted hacking?

Basic switches are LAN connectivity devices, they have offer no protection.
Routers are WAN connectivity devices, and in their basic form offer no protection - but there is some implied security through the use of (hide mode) NAT.
Basically it just means that unsolicited inbound traffic is dropped, but not really by design, but because the router has no idea which machine on the LAN should be receiving it (unless there is a specific port forwarding rule or DMZ set up).

They mostly offer zero protection against your clients making outbound connections as they are configured for ease of use to trust your local clients to communicate out - whether it's you using a browser or a trojan talking to a secret IRC channel to allow remote control of your systems.

Some broadband routers now have built-in firewalls with stateful packet inspection, plug & play support, VPN passthrough, etc.

p.s. can you get routers with more than 4 ports? becuase i would like the flexibility to have more than 4 computers connected. So really an 8 port switch would be best, but i cant seem to find any 8 port rotuers.

Not sure on this one, I prefer to use separate devices for specific functions so I have an 8-port 10/100 switch which I uplink to a port on my DSL router (which has its own 4-port switch) - so if I turn off the router it doesn't break my LAN.
A basic 8-port 10/100 switch you should be able to get for about a tenner, they are dirt cheap these days, or you could really splash out and get a branded one for about twenty

If you look around at various broadband routers with built-in modems and find a potentially good-sounding one, do a Google check for that model along with keywords like "problem" - some online games, for example, will not work with certain Linksys routers and this is widely known.

[blockers]

Thanks Paul, excellent advice. Seems to have cleared all my queries up.

Have a rep point

[blockers]

Just a quick question....i have been looking at 8 port switches this morning. And noticed that some have 1mb of RAM, while others have 128kb. Is this an important difference?

http://www.dabs.com/uk/channels/hard...quicklinx=22ZL <- 128kb
http://www.dabs.com/uk/channels/hard...quicklinx=13V8 <-1mb

Also have looked at:
http://www.dabs.com/uk/channels/hard...?quicklinx=W3M
http://www.dabs.com/uk/channels/hard...quicklinx=2PM8

Onto the next site.

Thanks
Will.

[Paul Adams]

Okay, for a switch memory shouldn't matter too much - I've got a bargain-basement "Genius" 8-port jobby and it does the job fine, and the DSL router/modem I use is a NetGear DG814.

Maybe your choice could be influenced by the branding of the other kit you go for, for looks as well as compatibility?

e.g.
Netgear FS608 8-port switch
£34.07 inc VAT (£29.00 ex VAT)
http://www.dabs.com/uk/channels/hard...quicklinx=22ZL
with
Netgear DG834 DSL modem/router with 4-port switch
£69.32 inc VAT (£59.00 ex VAT)
http://www.dabs.com/uk/productView.h...SR0&familyid=0

or, if you wanted wireless right ability right now, rather than use a separate AP:

Netgear FS608 8-port switch
£34.07 inc VAT (£29.00 ex VAT)
http://www.dabs.com/uk/channels/hard...quicklinx=22ZL
with
Netgear DG834G DSL 802.11g AP/modem/router with 4-port switch (plus 1 USB wi-fi adapter)
£99.99 inc VAT (£85.10 ex VAT)
http://www.dabs.com/uk/Search2/Produ...hphrase=dg834g


You may well find cheaper kit with identical functionality, or the same kit at a different for less money - I can't vouch for these items, they are just an example.

Maybe someone here has either of these pieces of kit to give an opinion, or an alternative pair of devices?

[Jiff Lemon]

Might I suggest Scans very own 8 port switch .

Been running for 2 years on one and it's been faultless.

You're entering a minefield when asking for the best router - People are very defensive over what they've bought! Just remember that you'll need a router/modem combo as some routers are designed for Cable use and therefore have an RJ45 (network) Wan port (the bit that the net connects to).

It's always worth checking the manufacturers support sites to see if updated firmware is available.

[Paul Adams]

You're entering a minefield when asking for the best router - People are very defensive over what they've bought!

Wise words - it does work the other way too, some people will tell you what not to buy, for many people it makes little difference, but there some example situations of potential issues with broadband routers:
- VPN tunnels do not work, or only work for specific implementations
- Some (possibly older) online games will connect, but fail to keep the connection
- Voice/webcam/file transfer sessions do not work

As an example, I had a D-Link DSL504 router which broke VPN horribly so I was unable to connect to the office through it.
Some people might tell you to avoid some models of kit because while they work fine most of the time, they require occasional reboots, or don't work well when they get hot, that kind of thing.

It's always worth checking the manufacturers support sites to see if updated firmware is available.

Also good advice if you are having problems - I wouldn't upgrade a firmware revision just because there is a later one out, unless it states it fixes something or significantly improves performance.
Some firmware updates can fix the above problems for some kit, for example - in my case the 4.7 firmware for the DG814 made voice chats and file transfers work in MSN Messenger (by adding UPnP support).

Given the time broadband routers have been around, I would expect things like UPnP to be standard out of the box by now, but you never know

[blockers]

I have been talking to Dad about what kind of set-up he would prefer to have. And he thinks taht a server with a modem, and ADSL going into that, then to a switch and onto the other computers in the house.

So will a 600mhz celly be enough for starters for general downloading and using as a router type thing?

With switches i was generally heading towards brands that i knew. Looked at cisco and that is kind £1k+ bit too much i felt.

So anyway....any modems that are recommended? also, with wireless stuff can i connect it from the "server" computer somehow? like by a USB thing that can act as an access point?

Thanks guys...excellent info....expanding my networking knowledge