Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 16 of 23

Thread: VMs network stability across a single networking chip

  1. #1
    jim
    jim is online now
    HEXUS.clueless jim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Location: Location:
    Posts
    11,435
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked
    1,639 times in 1,304 posts
    • jim's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus Maximus IV Gene-Z
      • CPU:
      • i5 2500K @ 4.5GHz
      • Memory:
      • 8GB Corsair Vengeance LP
      • Storage:
      • 1TB Sandisk SSD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • ASUS GTX 970
      • PSU:
      • Corsair AX650
      • Case:
      • Silverstone Fortress FT03
      • Operating System:
      • 8.1 Pro
      • Monitor(s):
      • Dell S2716DG
      • Internet:
      • 10 Mbps ADSL

    VMs network stability across a single networking chip

    I've just been mucking around with Hyper-V and Server 2012, and noticed some strange behaviour across the network.

    I've created two VMs - one acting as a fileserver, and one running various bits of software to test out.

    If I try to stream media from the fileserver, it works perfectly. However, if I connect to the software server, which is running a DLNA server, media streaming seems to be very erratic.

    As things stand, the DLNA streamer on the software server shares files stored on the fileserver. So effectively the request goes:

    Client --> Software Server (VM) --> Fileserver (VM) and then the media comes back again in the other direction.

    I'm wondering whether this is overloading the network chip, or if the VM hypervisor just can't cope (all the VMs share a single Realtek gigabit chip). Should I be running each one on its own dedicated ethernet port, i.e. an Intel PCIe board? Or can I reconfigure the VM settings to make it more reliable? Or is it probably another problem (i.e. dodgy software) altogether?

  2. #2
    Splash
    Guest

    Re: VMs network stability across a single networking chip

    Is your Realtek chipset listed on the HV HCL? I've personally always leant towards Intel NICs with VSphere, Realtek having been historically problematic. What are you seeing by way of network traffic within the HV host?

    Are you using a legacy or standard NIC in the guest? If using a legacy card you'll take a performance hit, but won't need to install the driver, which leads me on to...

    Have you got integration services installed?

    I'd also suggest if possible that it would be worth using a different NIC for management to the one you're using for HV traffic. Finally (and again, HV is not something I'm an expert in, but I've done a little reading) it may be worth taking a look at SR-IOV if supported by your hardware - think of this as being a technology that allows your virtual NIC to kinda bypass the hypervisor and talk directly to the hardware of your NIC.

  3. #3
    root Member DanceswithUnix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    In the middle of a core dump
    Posts
    12,335
    Thanks
    714
    Thanked
    1,406 times in 1,188 posts
    • DanceswithUnix's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus X470-PRO
      • CPU:
      • 3700X
      • Memory:
      • 32GB 3200MHz ECC
      • Storage:
      • 1TB Linux, 1TB Games (Win 10)
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Asus Strix RX Vega 56
      • PSU:
      • 650W Corsair TX
      • Case:
      • Antec 300
      • Operating System:
      • Fedora 33 + Win 10 Pro 64 (yuk)
      • Monitor(s):
      • Benq XL2730Z 1440p + Iiyama 27" 1440p
      • Internet:
      • Zen 80Mb/20Mb VDSL

    Re: VMs network stability across a single networking chip

    Fundamentally, if the fileserver can serve the file at decent speed then the network chip isn't a bottleneck.

    Looks like most of the traffic is looped around within the server box, so you are at the mercy of virtual machine scheduling and virtualisation IO overhead on the network packets.

    There may be some optimisation you have missed (I don't use Hyper-V or even Windows so don't know specifics, sorry) but I would google for efficient network adaptors and make sure any client OS drivers are loaded as they reduce the overheads.

    Expect the lazy way out would be a bigger CPU in the server

  4. #4
    <<== UT3 Player spoon_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    London
    Posts
    2,071
    Thanks
    113
    Thanked
    139 times in 131 posts

    Re: VMs network stability across a single networking chip

    Surely Client --> Software Server (VM) (and back) will be the only traffic going across the physical network? I just cannot see how gigabit NIC will not cope.

    What's the underlying hardware you run your Server 2012 on top of Jim? Also, what's assigned to individual VMs?

  5. #5
    jim
    jim is online now
    HEXUS.clueless jim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Location: Location:
    Posts
    11,435
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked
    1,639 times in 1,304 posts
    • jim's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus Maximus IV Gene-Z
      • CPU:
      • i5 2500K @ 4.5GHz
      • Memory:
      • 8GB Corsair Vengeance LP
      • Storage:
      • 1TB Sandisk SSD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • ASUS GTX 970
      • PSU:
      • Corsair AX650
      • Case:
      • Silverstone Fortress FT03
      • Operating System:
      • 8.1 Pro
      • Monitor(s):
      • Dell S2716DG
      • Internet:
      • 10 Mbps ADSL

    Re: VMs network stability across a single networking chip

    Quote Originally Posted by Splash View Post
    Is your Realtek chipset listed on the HV HCL? I've personally always leant towards Intel NICs with VSphere, Realtek having been historically problematic. What are you seeing by way of network traffic within the HV host?

    Are you using a legacy or standard NIC in the guest? If using a legacy card you'll take a performance hit, but won't need to install the driver, which leads me on to...

    Have you got integration services installed?

    I'd also suggest if possible that it would be worth using a different NIC for management to the one you're using for HV traffic. Finally (and again, HV is not something I'm an expert in, but I've done a little reading) it may be worth taking a look at SR-IOV if supported by your hardware - think of this as being a technology that allows your virtual NIC to kinda bypass the hypervisor and talk directly to the hardware of your NIC.
    It is listed in the HCL. It seems to be packing in even with light traffic, i.e. streaming FLAC - at full pelt though, the host reports no network traffic through task manager, just background.

    In each of the VMs, network utilisation is really erratic, going from 0Kbps to 300Mbps and back again, constantly. If, alternatively, I just pull a file directly off the fileserver, it gives me a constant rate of 10Mbps or whatever, which seems much more sensible - that's what I'd expect all the time.

    As for integration services, Google is just talking about SQL? And yeah, I've been wondering ever since I built this box whether I'd need to start looking at multiple network ports. But it seems to me that the problem is having the two VMs share an NIC rather than the Hyper-V host conflicting with the VMs. I'll look at SR-IOV as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    Fundamentally, if the fileserver can serve the file at decent speed then the network chip isn't a bottleneck.

    Looks like most of the traffic is looped around within the server box, so you are at the mercy of virtual machine scheduling and virtualisation IO overhead on the network packets.

    There may be some optimisation you have missed (I don't use Hyper-V or even Windows so don't know specifics, sorry) but I would google for efficient network adaptors and make sure any client OS drivers are loaded as they reduce the overheads.

    Expect the lazy way out would be a bigger CPU in the server
    Well, the CPU is already more than capable - it's a quad core, and I've never even seen it utilised over 50% during particularly intensive software runs.

    I think it has to be, as you said, something to do with the scheduling. Or, more likely, there's something really obvious I ought to have done, but haven't.

    Quote Originally Posted by spoon_ View Post
    Surely Client --> Software Server (VM) (and back) will be the only traffic going across the physical network? I just cannot see how gigabit NIC will not cope.

    What's the underlying hardware you run your Server 2012 on top of Jim? Also, what's assigned to individual VMs?
    Underlying hardware is an AMD A8 5500 (3.2GHz Quad), and 16GB of RAM. Each VM has memory provided dynamically, and nowhere near the maximum. They also share access to the quad, permitted to each use all 4 cores if required.

    And yeah, that's all that's happening on the physical level, but I suspect it's going haywire on the virtual level.
    Last edited by jim; 16-06-2013 at 12:54 PM.

  6. #6
    Splash
    Guest

    Re: VMs network stability across a single networking chip

    re: integration services - was referring to the HV version of VMware Tools. Once you install the guest OS you should install these services if you have a standard (ie non-legacy) NIC provisioned to the guest. If you're not installing these then it could well be the cause of your issues.

    How's the transfer rate if you copy the file from file server to software server?

  7. #7
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    2,129
    Thanks
    13
    Thanked
    189 times in 160 posts

    Re: VMs network stability across a single networking chip

    Why not just do what 99.99999999999% of the world does and use vmware.

  8. #8
    jim
    jim is online now
    HEXUS.clueless jim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Location: Location:
    Posts
    11,435
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked
    1,639 times in 1,304 posts
    • jim's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus Maximus IV Gene-Z
      • CPU:
      • i5 2500K @ 4.5GHz
      • Memory:
      • 8GB Corsair Vengeance LP
      • Storage:
      • 1TB Sandisk SSD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • ASUS GTX 970
      • PSU:
      • Corsair AX650
      • Case:
      • Silverstone Fortress FT03
      • Operating System:
      • 8.1 Pro
      • Monitor(s):
      • Dell S2716DG
      • Internet:
      • 10 Mbps ADSL

    Re: VMs network stability across a single networking chip

    Looks like they're already installed. Internal file transfer is approx 50MBps, vs. 100MBps to external. Definitely not causing a problem.

    I'm thinking that if I could create a private/internal virtual switch in Hyper-V, that might help, since it apparently creates a new network that doesn't rely on the hardware chip at all to transfer data between VMs, but I cannot get the damn thing to work so that's out for the moment.

  9. #9
    jim
    jim is online now
    HEXUS.clueless jim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Location: Location:
    Posts
    11,435
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked
    1,639 times in 1,304 posts
    • jim's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus Maximus IV Gene-Z
      • CPU:
      • i5 2500K @ 4.5GHz
      • Memory:
      • 8GB Corsair Vengeance LP
      • Storage:
      • 1TB Sandisk SSD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • ASUS GTX 970
      • PSU:
      • Corsair AX650
      • Case:
      • Silverstone Fortress FT03
      • Operating System:
      • 8.1 Pro
      • Monitor(s):
      • Dell S2716DG
      • Internet:
      • 10 Mbps ADSL

    Re: VMs network stability across a single networking chip

    Quote Originally Posted by abaxas View Post
    Why not just do what 99.99999999999% of the world does and use vmware.
    Good question. I wanted to test out Hyper-V, and also I was having a crack with the new Storage Spaces stuff, since I don't have any proper RAID approach open to me right now.

    Is VMware more intelligent in terms of its network provisioning? I can't say I'm particularly fond of this virtual switch nonsense.

  10. #10
    Account closed at user request
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Elephant watch camp
    Posts
    2,150
    Thanks
    56
    Thanked
    115 times in 103 posts
    • wasabi's system
      • Motherboard:
      • MSI B85M-G43
      • CPU:
      • i3-4130
      • Memory:
      • 8 gig DDR3 Crucial Rendition 1333 - cheap!
      • Storage:
      • 128 gig Agility 3, 240GB Corsair Force 3
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Zotac GTX 750Ti
      • PSU:
      • Silver Power SP-S460FL
      • Case:
      • Lian Li T60 testbanch
      • Operating System:
      • Win7 64bit
      • Monitor(s):
      • First F301GD Live
      • Internet:
      • Virgin cable 100 meg

    Re: VMs network stability across a single networking chip

    Quote Originally Posted by snootyjim View Post
    Good question. I wanted to test out Hyper-V, and also I was having a crack with the new Storage Spaces stuff, since I don't have any proper RAID approach open to me right now.

    Is VMware more intelligent in terms of its network provisioning? I can't say I'm particularly fond of this virtual switch nonsense.

    Ran HyperV for 2 years in a production cluster before moving to a VMWare environment recently. Never had the issue you describe, although never ran a media streaming service on it.. To be honest I find VMWare a bit clunky these days having gotten used HyperV.

    Are the Hyper-V Integration Services installed on the Guest OS?

    Can you serve large regular files quickly to and from the application server?

    Used to be some funny MS quirks about streaming media from servers - quick google finds http://blog.pranaysharma.com/dlna-st...r-2008-r2-not/

  11. #11
    root Member DanceswithUnix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    In the middle of a core dump
    Posts
    12,335
    Thanks
    714
    Thanked
    1,406 times in 1,188 posts
    • DanceswithUnix's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus X470-PRO
      • CPU:
      • 3700X
      • Memory:
      • 32GB 3200MHz ECC
      • Storage:
      • 1TB Linux, 1TB Games (Win 10)
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Asus Strix RX Vega 56
      • PSU:
      • 650W Corsair TX
      • Case:
      • Antec 300
      • Operating System:
      • Fedora 33 + Win 10 Pro 64 (yuk)
      • Monitor(s):
      • Benq XL2730Z 1440p + Iiyama 27" 1440p
      • Internet:
      • Zen 80Mb/20Mb VDSL

    Re: VMs network stability across a single networking chip

    Sounds like you might be dropping packets. No idea how you ask Windows about network errors though, on Linux "ifconfig" would tell you.

    Edit to add: That can be for all sorts of reasons, if you throw too much at a network card then the queue will just fill up and stuff gets discarded. Too many interrupts per second isn't a Windows strong point either.

  12. #12
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    2,129
    Thanks
    13
    Thanked
    189 times in 160 posts

    Re: VMs network stability across a single networking chip

    The only comment I can make is...

    If you hardware is on the HCL, it will work.

  13. #13
    Administrator Moby-Dick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    There's no place like ::1 (IPv6 version)
    Posts
    10,665
    Thanks
    53
    Thanked
    385 times in 314 posts

    Re: VMs network stability across a single networking chip

    I chuck a bucketload of traffic through my 2012 test boxes - its been pretty stable , even though I had to hack the NIC driver from a Windows 8 install

    Historicly , VMware managed network traffic considerably more intellegently ( though it still uses this "virtual switch nonsense" ) . Hyper V 3.0 had a lot to catch up on. IMO its hit the stage where it is "good enough"

    streaming traffic from a VM can be a little tricky - for example trying to use Skype from within a VM can have some interesting results on call quality, thats why the version of lync creates a direct connection from the desktop endpoint to the lnyc server. Cisco guidlines for running their Unified Comms software on VMs are pretty stringent , with no sharing of cores allowed etc.
    my Virtualisation Blog http://jfvi.co.uk Virtualisation Podcast http://vsoup.net

  14. #14
    jim
    jim is online now
    HEXUS.clueless jim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Location: Location:
    Posts
    11,435
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked
    1,639 times in 1,304 posts
    • jim's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus Maximus IV Gene-Z
      • CPU:
      • i5 2500K @ 4.5GHz
      • Memory:
      • 8GB Corsair Vengeance LP
      • Storage:
      • 1TB Sandisk SSD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • ASUS GTX 970
      • PSU:
      • Corsair AX650
      • Case:
      • Silverstone Fortress FT03
      • Operating System:
      • 8.1 Pro
      • Monitor(s):
      • Dell S2716DG
      • Internet:
      • 10 Mbps ADSL

    Re: VMs network stability across a single networking chip

    Quote Originally Posted by Moby-Dick View Post
    Historicly , VMware managed network traffic considerably more intellegently ( though it still uses this "virtual switch nonsense" ) . Hyper V 3.0 had a lot to catch up on. IMO its hit the stage where it is "good enough"
    I thought I might get called up on that

    It just surprised me that it wasn't intelligent enough not to transfer internal ethernet communications via the network chip on the fly, i.e. without having to manually configure it.

    ---

    On that front, I did get the internal network functioning, but it's made absolutely no difference to the problem.

    Does anyone reckon that buying a 4-port Intel gigabit ethernet card might fix the issue? I could then give each of the VMs their own, independent access to a network adapter. Since both servers as working perfectly well to stream files independently, but go a bit crazy when working together, I can't imagine it's anything other the network adapter - but I could easily be wrong.

    Don't particularly want to splash out, but until I get this sorted the entire thing is fairly pointless.

  15. #15
    Administrator Moby-Dick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    There's no place like ::1 (IPv6 version)
    Posts
    10,665
    Thanks
    53
    Thanked
    385 times in 314 posts

    Re: VMs network stability across a single networking chip

    I'm not convinced it will personally. though if you have space for another single port NIC it would probably end up cheaper to test. I used a PCI card with Server 2012 Teaming - works really quite well without any switch reconfiguration.

    Just so I have it straight in my head , if you run the same DNLA Server off host , you dont get issues , but running with an on-host DNLA setup , its not playing ball ? If you have spare resources you could always move the DNLA app to another host ( workstation / windows 8 hyper v etc. )
    my Virtualisation Blog http://jfvi.co.uk Virtualisation Podcast http://vsoup.net

  16. #16
    jim
    jim is online now
    HEXUS.clueless jim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Location: Location:
    Posts
    11,435
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked
    1,639 times in 1,304 posts
    • jim's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus Maximus IV Gene-Z
      • CPU:
      • i5 2500K @ 4.5GHz
      • Memory:
      • 8GB Corsair Vengeance LP
      • Storage:
      • 1TB Sandisk SSD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • ASUS GTX 970
      • PSU:
      • Corsair AX650
      • Case:
      • Silverstone Fortress FT03
      • Operating System:
      • 8.1 Pro
      • Monitor(s):
      • Dell S2716DG
      • Internet:
      • 10 Mbps ADSL

    Re: VMs network stability across a single networking chip

    Quote Originally Posted by Moby-Dick View Post
    I'm not convinced it will personally. though if you have space for another single port NIC it would probably end up cheaper to test. I used a PCI card with Server 2012 Teaming - works really quite well without any switch reconfiguration.

    Just so I have it straight in my head , if you run the same DNLA Server off host , you dont get issues , but running with an on-host DNLA setup , its not playing ball ? If you have spare resources you could always move the DNLA app to another host ( workstation / windows 8 hyper v etc. )
    Yeah, exactly that. Sadly I don't have another 24/7 machine - this supposed to take care of all of it.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •