Nasty Broadband Predicament - Unreliability with Openreach??

[watercooled]

Due to being in a new estate, everything is underground. Not a telegraph pole in sight!

I looked at AAISP's, but with out usage (very high) we'd be looking at £55/month for a comparable package to the £20 I was with Vodafone and the £20 I am on with NOW TV.

Another local yocal was on Facebook last night complaining her WIFi keeps dropping out and what she can do. I have responded so many times to others telling them to contact their ISP i have given up.


& yes BT engineer took another twisted pair from my box back to the cabinet, not a new line itself. He did say there were noticeable improvements on his system so was confident this would fix it - alas not.

Yes, being a small ISP, A&A are quite expensive if you're a 'heavy' user - they can't afford to subsidise the heavier users like the huge ISPs are able to, but if you're stuck with a line no-one else is willing to get fixed, they're always an option given their guarantee to get it fixed or your money back. You don't necessarily have to stay with them outside of the minimum term, just perhaps keep a closer eye on your usage while you are.

I don't suppose you still have the router running to check line stats? They could be useful for determining where the problem lies. I just wouldn't take customer support's word as final when it comes to technical issues - my experience with BT's call centres is pretty terrible though their UK staff are generally good. It's just a shame it's more of an effort to get to speak with them.

[Andeh13]

Just to update the thread, Vodafone confirmed there was nothing more they could do, and whilst openreach were aware of a "network event" they couldn't give me more details.

I start with NOW TV (sky) broadband this weekend, after Vodafone refunded all 3 months of my time with them, and gave me £50 an apology.

The Internet speed has improve dramatically last week, steady high 30mb/s, but the line is still dropping.

I am going to up the data on my mobile, and use that for my online gaming (especially the likes of RTS where you can't just rejoin a server) and start the process again with NOT TV.

Im also going to try pestering openreach myself to see if there is anything they explain to me!

Facebook group had another resident complaining about Internet dropping out this evening , so at least it isn't just me... I guess.

[watercooled]

I doubt you'll get far with Openreach as they tend to avoid dealing directly with end users. See if you can get any more information from NowTV about what's going on.

In the meantime, can you get any line stats from the modem? They might give some insight into what's going on. It dropping despite a different ISP suggests an issue between your phone socket and the street cabinet, inclusive.

Also, AAISP are still an option - despite the cost they should still be drastically cheaper than a mobile ISP for high data volumes. If you've had the same problem on two different ISPs which run their own backhaul networks then trying yet more is unlikely to help if the problem lies with Openreach's network.

Out of interest, try your postcode on this checker https://availability.samknows.com/br...xchange_search - I assume Vodafone and Sky (for NowTV) are available as LLU providers?

[Andeh13]

How would I get line stats from the modem? From the status page it gives me speeds, up time etc - is that what you are referring to?

LLU Operators are Sky, Talktalk (CPW) and Vodafone

[watercooled]

I'm not too sure about where they would be on that modem. Useful things to look for would be sync speed, max attainable rate, noise margin (given in dB, usually separate for up and downstream), line attenuation (also given in dB) and whether the line is fast path or interleaved. They're not always called by the same name either!

Also, some routers give a more detailed technical log - they tend to be full of details so knowing a time the line dropped would be useful, see if it gives any sort of reason for the line drop/modem reconnect. Some modems are pretty useless at giving reasons here though e.g. BT's Smart Hub will tell you it rebooted but generally no proper reason why.

Also yeah, having them available as LLU operators is useful to know - I'm not certain which if any of them take orders on non-LLU exchanges anyway but in your case it means a BT Wholesale backhaul issue can be ruled out, however unlikely.

Despite the Openreach visits I'd still be suspecting the copper pair, or possibly an entire bundle of pairs if it's affecting neighbours too. I don't suppose you've noticed if it's worse during/after wet weather? An active part of equipment like a line card in the cabinet is another possibility but one I would think is more likely to be detected and logged by Openreach.

[watercooled]

Have you made any positive progress on this?

[Andeh13]

Hi guys, me again!

Moved to nowTV after Vodafone effectively paid me off to leave them, and the first week of time with nowTV was very positive, Went 5 days with ZERO drops, and a solid 37mb/s download speed and 8mb/s upload speed. I really thought things were sorted, including resetting up my internal hardwire network.

Sadly - it was short lived. Last few days we have gone back to the 'several' drops a day, each time for 5-10mins before it restarts.

nowTV have ran tests and think it is an internal network fault with the house - bemused i told them I have had three BT engineers to my property in 4 months, including new wires taken to cabinet (within same cable) and a new wall socket.

However, I need to go through the process with them, and see if they have more teeth then Vodafone at taking things seriously.

Had it not been for our high data usage (350gb/month++) I would look to smaller 'fault sorting' specialists like advised above, but with my neighbours still having issues it does seem to be a bigger problem!

[watercooled]

I'm honestly not trying to overly push you towards other ISPs but if the major ISPs are failing to get it sorted, it might be a valid choice, even if it's not permanent. You get 1000GB/month with them and IIRC some of the unused quota carries over.

The problem with big ISPs is the game of Chinese whispers you end up playing trying to get any non-trivial faults sorted. The important bits of technical information don't make it through first-line 'technical' support to the people who would actually understand it, and you get generic nonsense fed back to you. Language barriers and poor quality audio can be real problems too.

Have a read up on BT's 'Special Fault Investigation' service - something I assume has not been carried out but is probably required in your case.

Having said all that, AFAIK Sky (I assume NowTV use the same call centres as Sky) have a decent reputation for customer service so hopefully you have more joy with them!

[Fizzl]

Sadly - it was short lived. Last few days we have gone back to the 'several' drops a day, each time for 5-10mins before it restarts.

nowTV have ran tests and think it is an internal network fault with the house - bemused i told them I have had three BT engineers to my property in 4 months, including new wires taken to cabinet (within same cable) and a new wall socket.

Reminds me of my situation a while back. I was getting frequent drops and slower than expected speed. Eventually noticed a certain coloration with my line stability and the weather. Many engineers called established that when they tested at the manhole it was significantly faster but of course the fault never happened when they were there (although Plus had all sorts of graphs to prove the fault existed which is why they kept insisting Openreach send an engineer). Openreach just kept replacing the master socket and hoping for the best, blaming the house wiring. So I took things into my own hands. Grabbed my pickaxe, spade and went prospecting. Eventually I struck gold, my armoured cable going into an electrical junction box, the twisted pair attached to a piece of ethernet by some electricians terminal blocks surrounded by some sort of potting compound. I kid you not see below:



Anyway so I replaced that with jelly crimps and got a much more stable line but still not perfect and not what the Openreach guy was getting in the street. So I get Openreach in again pointed to the armoured cable and they agreed to replace it. Now I get 79/19.9.

So I did get once get charged the not-our-fault called fee of £80 and didn't dispute it because horror show I dug up clearly wasn't an Openreach job but after removing that it was just the armoured cable left they did replace that for no charge.

However if you are not the sort of person who owns a pickaxe then maybe try this first? They offer to fix all problems that are fixable provided you sign up long term. https://www.aaisp.net.uk/broadband-trial.html

[Andeh13]

Welp, after a few months of no issue's at all with NowTV... Its started up all over again. Exactly the same issue, totally out of blue.

Engineer booked in for Friday. I'll reread this thread when I'm off my mobile to see what options I may have. Very annoying though!

[watercooled]

Any progress since then?

[badass]

BT engineers replaced my socket, and ran 2 new wires from cabinet back to the socket so effectively the line has been 100% checked. I am hoping that with being moved off the Vodafone equipment in the exchange (which they confirmed was at/over capacity) it sorts things out!

I bet they were lying. They probably just found 2 spare wires and used those. The problem is that often those wires are spare because someone else was on them and they were faulty as well. Direct, bitter experience from me on that one.

[Andeh13]

Sooo..... just because I hate a thread without a conclusion! We have a sort of conclusion.

TL;DR... It's interference from an unknown Neighbor's TV power supply, a specialist BT Openreach team were in the area and I got chatting with them, who confirmed this ''confidently''. They were called out as the 'system' was flagging the issue, they are not an ISP/Customer facing department, only an internal BT Openreach systems team.

Long Version:

We have had a total of 4 Openreach Engineers out with NowTV (on top of the several that came out for Vodafone at the start of the year). They have officially replaced/changed every bit of my connection through to the cabinet (inc the port in the cabinet) and no difference has been noticed.

The line still drops several times a day, for 10-15mins at a time.


HOWEVER - through good luck more then anything the last Engineer who came out (to replace the port I was on in the cabinet), we were chatting in front of my house when a different BT Openreach Van pitched up 100 away. I gave this chap 30mins to get out, start collecting equip & get underway before I wondered over to enquire why he was there.... informing him of the issue I was having.

it turned out, that was he from a ''Chief Engineering team'' / ''advanced fault finding'' team from Canterbury, and that the ''system''' had detected regular drops from several houses along a single stretch of out street - me being more or less in the middle of these houses. He was not called out by an ISP/was not a customer facing/ISP facing department.

Whilst he was there I kept a very very close eye on him, and he was walking around with effectively TV Aerials (like you would see on your rooftop) and a laptop-esque piece of kit checking for ''RAIN'' - not the wet stuff, but the electronic background noise/interference.

He went round these several houses, first with one type of ''antenna/aerial'' thing, then with a different one... aiming them at doors, windows, Solar panels, electric meter boxes, gas mains, lamp posts etc etc. As he went round I kept asking him for updates, until he came round & knocked on my door and informed me he was ''confident'' he had foudn the culprit.

He was utterly unable to tell me WHICH house was causing it, but one of the houses further up our street he said was causing the issue, he confidently suspected it was a TV with an aftermarket/dodgy power supply cable that was kicking out such levels of interface it was interrupting the signal of several houses & their broadband.

He explained this was not uncommon for his job, and he had found dodgy light posts, Solar panel installations, Servers/Fridge Freezers etc that through dodgy wiring/whatever kicked out interference that interrupted signals.

Disappointingly, he said the owners were not in but he had put a letter through their door to get in contact with BT openreach to allow an engineer to do further trials.

He also confirmed what I feared, they had no powers to force this home owner to rectify their equipment, so did rely on home owners ''good will'' to change their setup. He said the closest thing they had to 'powers' to force a chance was through the BBC/License fee/regulations (or something).

That was a few weeks ago, and I am now working my way up through nowTV's escalation chain trying to get them to put pressure on Openreach for an update on the above engineer/his verdict/progress!

I will update you accordingly, this could be fixed tomorrow, or in 6 months, or 18 months.....

[peterb]

They have no enforcement powers, so unless the neighbour is public spirited and sorts it out, at their cost, you are unlikely to get anywhere. Of course it is probably affecting their broadband as well (if they have it). Alternatively, if you find out the address and they don't do anything, you could offer to pay for any remedial work.

You could offer to do it yourself, but then you risk all sorts of liability issues if you make an unauthorised modification.

The only exception would be if you fitted a ferite bead filter round the power cable of the TV, which may (or may not) reduce the problem

I think there are statutory powers where faulty equipment is causing interference to critical safety systems (such as aircraft/airfield/airport radio systems) but that doesn't help you.

[watercooled]

He will most likely have been an SFI (special fault investigation), and the problem he's referring to is REIN (its counterpart is known as SHINE, amusingly: https://support.zen.co.uk/kb/knowled...rein-and-shine )

While Openreach themselves have little way of enforcing it, depending on the sort of interference being emitted, Ofcom might have something to say about it given consumer equipment is not permitted to create harmful interference on certain frequencies, and it would need to have substantial power to cause a DSL line to keep dropping! It's also likely a broadband signal given DSL can work around narrowband interference by notching out some of the tones across the spectrum it uses.

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/spectrum/in...g-interference