I suspect either Asus Probe or the sensor chip on your motherboard threw a wobbly. I don't think you have anything to worry about.
Cheers,
Stephen
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I suspect either Asus Probe or the sensor chip on your motherboard threw a wobbly. I don't think you have anything to worry about.
Cheers,
Stephen
Thanks for the replies again. I would have gotten a better fan for my cpu but I didnt fancy removing the motherboard to fit a back plate. Is there a better fan than the Arctic Freezer that doesnt require a backplate?
Hmmm! well mine is 40/40/35/35 idle (in order of core number) and under load 51/51/45/45 give or take a few.
How should I oc it, just raise the FSB a bit at a time? by my calc a decent oc would be on an FSB of around at least 300mhz instead of the stock 266mhzx4
I have the cpu fan at 50% power btw as I hate having a noisy fan :p
I gave only what intel recommends....whatever peeps run them @ is entirely up to them....i've seen peeps running in the 80's with the G0 when priming.... not sure but i think it's 96c before the G0 starts to throttle....The max temp for a Q6600 B3 is about 72c (Tcase of 62c) with the throttling temp somewhere around 82c.....mine with prime running hits 60c @ 3.5ghz.:mrgreen:
Finally ordered a Q6600 and received an SLACR today. Haven't tested max o/c and probably won't since with 4x2GB RAM I can't push it beyond 800MHz, but I may try for 9x400 later on just for kicks. Anyway, with a Thermalright Ultra Extreme and a 120x38mm Panaflo fan I get 40C idle and 65C load @ 3.2GHz (8x400) and 1.425V with 2x Orthos running. Quite happy with that.
If he's on air, I'd be will to bet a small sum of money he's not reading those temps with coretemp. I reckon we can add 15° onto them.
My Vcore is about the same, I'm overclocked to 3.42GHz and I'm currently hitting about 55°C full load, but it is pretty cool in my computer room (19°C) and I'm watercooled.
Cheers,
Stephen
Just one comment I'd like to add:
Sometimes posters have a machine spec under 'My System' or in their sig, which isn't the machine to which they're referring in their post. Lots of posters have, or work with, more than one box. So generally one wouldn't assume the spec of a system being referred to is necessarily whatever is listed in the corresponding sig/MySystem, unless it's also made clear in the body of the post.
will the new penthyn quad core run alot cooler than a q6600 given the fact its a 42mm chip?? if so those are going to be alot better at OC'ing and with some of them starting at over 3ghz.. im sure the next cpu's can overclock near 4ghz without water
Can we leave it at that?, its got nothing to do with what this thread is about, and isnt helping anyone :D
Josh, no-one knows what the retail penryns will clock like yet.
You will probably find that ES and retail penryns show quite different results :)
Removed some irrelevant posts at the request of a few people.
D-BEAR: It really doesn't matter who is 'right' or 'wrong' when posting in here. Everyone's opinion is welcome; After all, we are all here because we want to expand our knowledge, right?
BUT there is a way to do it, and to be blunt, the attitude in your last few posts sucked.
Going on about people being a 'noob' and you having a longer registration date...are...well... rather childish and certainly not in line with the way the rest of people around here post.
Then again, with such an old registration date, I would have expected you to have known that ;)
Cheers :)
Anandtech had something about the new AMD Opterons, can't remember though.
Cheers mate - We all have those days :) Its so easy to forget that there is a real person behind each post; I know I've been guilty of it :D
Hey guys,
I'm pretty new here, and pretty new to all the new systems around at the moment... Having just upgraded from my relatively old 3.2ghz Northwood, to a quad core, I've updated most of my system. This also means a whole new set of coolers are needed.
However, looking at the specs, it's going to be a tight squeeze in my case for most coolers. So I was wondering what people think of the Coolink Silentator? It seems to have a good spec, gets good reviews, is well priced and should fit in my case... I also quite like the design, will work well with my air flow plans!
Am looking to get my chip to around 3.4Ghz (Hopefully).
Also, what case fans would you guys reccommend, at 120mm, to draw in a lot of air?
Thanks in advance for the help,
Daz.
To be honest, I havent heard of that one before.
If size is a problem, why not check out the Thermalright ultima 90?
Hi, that sounds like an excellent cooler. Surprised I hadn't come accross it.
Looks like I'll get that with a 92mm fan, and then I plan to drill a 120mm side intake into my case.
Could you possibly reccomend two high-end fans for doing that?
Also, do you have any idea what the difference is between the Ultima-90, and the Ultima-90i? I can't seem to see any.
Thanks again!
Daz.
No idea on the differences, I can only see one on the Thermalright website, so maybe they are the same?
Cant comment on a 92mm fan, I only have one, and its a yate loon, and its pretty quiet, but not the greatest pusher of air.
For 120mm case fans, yate loons are the way to go, cheap and quiet.
Well, I can't find yate loons that readily in the uk... I was thinking of pushing a little more air too.
What do you think to:
scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProductID=533394
And
scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProductID=337841
I'm thinking the silverstone FM92 won't fit though? Will I be able to fit a 92mm fan to the 90mm mountings?
Thanks once again,
Daz.
If you cant find yate loons, have a look for sharkoon golfball fans. There really isnt any need to pay 12 quid for a fan :)
90mm/92mm fans are one in the same :)
Spotted a sharkoon which performs well for my 120mm. Thanks for the tip. Might stick with the silverstone though for my CPU fan, as I think it will fit in my case, and provide better airflow than a 92/90mm.
Anyway, just to let you know, overclocked my Q6600 to 2.7 on Stock and it's fine. Temps get a bit high if I push it any further. Will let you know how I get on with my new parts. :)
Thanks again for the help,
Daz.
Wooo! Ok, my new fans and heatsink have arrived.
Put them in today, but struggling to get a stable overclock.
One thing that worries me is my RAM, I'm unsure as to what voltage it needs as it doesn't say on the sticks itself. Putting the part number into google I get:
benchmark.co.yu/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=25934&d=1185961262
So I have gone with that info for now.
Anyway, I tried to run at a FSB of 360, but didn't seem to be able to get it stable. Even when hitting CPU temperatures of up to 66C (In Speedfan). How hot should I be willing to go?
Have now dropped it to a FSB of 350 and am going to try again.
Do you think I should be expecting better results?
Also, my fan pushes ALOT of air, however, it seems to struggle to push *through* the heatsink, should I try pulling it instead?
Thanks for the help. :)
btw, I'm stress testing with Prime 95, running on all cores.
What make is the RAM? And how come you went for PC2-5300 for overclocking?
That aside, you should be able to get 333x9 without overclocking the RAM.
I am guessing that you dont have the RAM set to 1:1, and that is why your overclock isnt stable.
Hi,
My RAM is unbraded as far as I can tell. I got it for free, and thought I'd make use of it!
However, it may well be my limiting factor. However, stable or not, my temperatures still seem a little high. I was hoping to never see temperatures around 65C...
Do you think it could be my Heatsink is not seated properly? From my testing, it seems my CPU fan at 2000rpm does as good a job as when it's at 3,500 rpm. Makes me thinking it's not having to do as much work as it should be doing.
I may try lapping the heatsink (not done yet!), and then re-applying.
Oh, and my ram is set at 1:1. (I followed the guide in your sig actually!)
Cheers, Daz.
Hey, I was just wondering. I've been doing a bit of testing, and installed a few more fans.
Which temps are accurate, coretemp or Speedfan? For the cores, speedfan always shows temps that are 15C less than the corresponding core in coretemp. So which should I follow? And what should my maximum be?
Secondly, why are two of my cores consistently 10C cooler than the other two?
Any help is much appreciated.
Daz.
Ok, well I've changed the RAM, to a measly 1GB but of PC2-8500. So it's much better for going faster.
I also took off my heatsink, cleaned it up, and put on some thermal paste, this time a little more willingly. So I had a nice even layer accross the bottom.
Anyway, I booted back up at 3GHz an it was fine, temps were WAY cooler under load.
Have now put the voltage up to 1.45v in the bios, reading as 1.424v in CPUz. And put my CPU up to 3.4Ghz. With 9x multi. Tops out at about 62C after 10 minutes with Prime95 running. Will leave it for longer and see how it goes...
I still have two of my cores cooler, but now at idle only one is 2-3C cooler. At full load however, the same two drop to 7C cooler than the other two. (The temps I refer to above are the hottest.)
Thanks again, Daz.
On a side note, is there any ram you would recommend for my set-up? Am looking to get a 2x1GB matched pair, but don't really want to spend over 60 or 70 GBP...
Temps are ok.
You will probably be faster overall with the 2x1GiB of PC2-5300 installed.
I would go for the platinum version from the 2 you have listed, the reaper is just the same RAM with a gimicky heatsink.
If you want to overclock and tweak the RAM, go for some ballistix.
I'm not sure whether to start a new thread or not, but I'll start here.
I am just ordering a q6600 G0 system, but am unsure about the heatsink to get. There are a lot of conflicting opinions around. Could people suggest what overclocks they can get to with various coolers. The Thermalrights and Scythes of the world seem to be top of the pile, so I'm thinking of going with the Sythe Infinity, though I'd consider a Thermalright if I could find anything in stock.
There's so little reliable information around it makes life rather difficult. If you look at two websites testing the same components they will always have wildly different results...
Anyway, thanks in advance
Between the top heatsinks, there really isn't going to be a huge difference.
The biggest factor in your overclock when choosing between these is your CPU, RAM and motherboard :)
Inifinity, SI-120 extreme, etc Just choose the one which you prefer (mounting mechanism, size, shape, fan mounting etc)
another noobie question.. on everest home and motherboard manager5 my 12+volts is 9.18v yet on speed fan its 11.30v ??? which is most likely inaccurate? thanks..
I just wanted some help / feedback on my overclocking experience. So far I havnt!
I bought myself a quad core and a new motherboard, I have a q6600 and an ASUS P5NE-sli board, check my system for the full bumph.
I then was reading this and thought i wanted more out of it so bought myself a scythe air ninja cooling system plus fan. This things a beast, about 15cm high with around 30 metal plates for heat dissipation plus a 10cm fan or something. My case is quite adequatly cooled, its a thermaltake soprano or the like and has a 12cm rear fan 12cm front fan 8cm side fan and i have the scythe fan inside blowing air over the cooling and out to the back 12cm fan.
I thought that this buy would significantly reduce my heat but I still seem to get 2 cores avg 57-59 and other 2 54-56 when running nothing. I then pumped on core 95 to try and they settle around the 73 degree mark after around 3 mins after which i didnt want to risk and switched it off. This doesnt sound right to me what can i do to resolve.
My only real thought was that i didnt apply enough thermo paste, i followed the precise instructions on the pdf that clunk recommended a thin line across the centre. Should i apply more, i threw the stuff provided away. Which should i get?
Help me lower those goddam temps! (please!)
Crikey, 73! I would suggest the first place to look is the thermal compound, as the stuff provided is generally poor. Arctic Silver 5 is the stuff I used and has been oft recommended, it's either the best or pretty close to it depending on who you ask.
With thermal compound you really don't want much - ideally you would end up with a layer that is fractionally thicker than the surface roughness of your CPU and Heatsink. Take a look at your heatsink, it should appear flat, you want a layer roughly as thick as the error in that flatness (if that makes any sense).
So, in short - do not apply more!
My idle temps with a q6600 are in the 30's, but I think I'm lucky. One thing to check is have you set your voltages - I don't know about your motherboard, but sometimes when left to auto voltage some motherboards do strange things. best set it manually. You can find out what voltage it should be by running Core Temp (which you should be anyway) and looking at the VID
I know I shouldn't double post, but I wanted to add some more data to the mix :)
I am in the process of overclocking my q6600 at the moment, and as I mentioned above my temps are good so far...
I am using a Gigabyte P35C-DS3R - which has been rock solid, and my only grumble is that I can't find a way of adjusting the memory latencies... :( If anyone knows how please let me know! I've got 2GB of OCZ Cas 4 Ram, but it sets to auto Cas 5 all the time, so I'm running it at 900Mhz to make me feel a little better (why not).
The Power supply is a OCZ StealthStream 600W, which is having it easy at the moment just having to power a 7800GTX. (new graphics card after xmas if I have any money by then... :) )
And the processor. ;) A q6600 G0 stepping with a VID of 1.275, has so far been a dream. It's cooled by a Scythe Infinity which gets quite a help from the extremely close proximity of the 12cm rear case fan (I thought it wasn't going to fit at first). I have been burning it in over the last few days (Always a good idea if you plan some serious overclocking - read Arctic Silver's instructions, the thermal paste does require a few cycles of use and overnight cooling to be at its best!!!) I am currently stress testing it at 3.4GHz, with a voltage of 1.37V, which reads as 1.28 under load in CPU-Z. And the best bit is after approx an hour of Prime95 stressing all four cores there have been no errors and the temps in CoreTemp0.95 read 60 58 58 60 :)
Phew. Comments? Opinions? Can anyone help with the RAM issue???
Have you done the Crtl+F1 to get into the advanced settings menu?
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/mai...5c-ds3r_5.html
Ha ha! Genius. Thanks, yes that did the trick.
Cas 4 does actually make a large difference, and I found Cas 4 at 3.2Ghz was faster than Cas 5 at 3.4Ghz. Eventually managed to get everything cool and stable at 3.3GHz with Cas 4 so think I'll be sticking with that. :)
Nice one :thumbsup:
I wouldn't have thought it would have made too much of a difference.
Is the system more snappy and responsive during general use, or is it only in the benchmark numbers where the difference shows?
Have you had time to get your max load temp at the new speed you are running at yet?
Guess the stock cooler is complete rubbish then. I've just got a load more bits including some AS5 and have removed the stock cooler, cleaned the old thermal pad/grease off (noticed it looked pretty evenly spread so its not an installation of the HSF problem. and put it back on. I stopped Orthos when the temps hit 74 degrees C (after a few minutes) and noticed the heatsink was pretty hot so its on properly.
However after putting the heatsink on, I noticed just how much it bends the motherboard! :crazy:
A backplate is a definate must as Clunk says.
With the bits that arrrived, I pre ordered a thermalright Ultima 90 so hopefully the end of high CPU temps is on the horizon.
Hi,
now I'm also owner of a Q6600 :D
Temps: *tested with Core Temp 0.95.4*
Core #0: 35
Core #1: 37
Core #2: 30
Core #3: 33
These are idle temps, haven't tested under load yet.
Cooling at the moment is a Artic Freezer 7, which will be replaced by a watercoling kit (Swiftech H2O 120 Compact), but the Radiator was leaking, so have to wait for a replacement.
But are these ok so far?
I'm thinking of trying ot overclock a Q6600 to about 3.0 GHz...would an Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro be enough for this? I don't know if this counts as a "massive overclock" as stated above when it was noted not to use this fan for that. I'll be using a RaidMax Smilodon case with all the fan slots filled and a GeForce 8800GT (I hear these run pretty hot; don't know if it would affect keeping processor temps down...). Will I be ok, or do I need a better cooler?
I think you'll be fine - unless you plan on running it under full load 24/7, in which case I'd maybe think about investing in a better one.
A G0 stepping Q6600@3GHz puts out ~120Watts (~130Watts for a B3), which is well within limits of what a Freezer 7 pro can dissipate (their website says 200Watts max, which I think is a bit unrealistic...). Obviously, it depends somewhat on how ventilated your case is - by the sounds of it, you've got a pretty fancy one, so you're bound to be fine.
8800GTs run pretty hot, but they don't put out as many actual watts of heat as most other high-end cards. However, the heat all ends up in the chassis, rather than vented out the back with a double-slot card. Regardless, I doubt it's an issue with any half-decent chassis, as they are obviously designed with this kind of thing in mind :)
Thanks! From what I've read, the case is supposed to have pretty good airflow (the case is rated pretty well on NewEgg).
The only thing I can imagine doing that would make it run full load is playing some games (Crysis or Oblivian, maybe). When I'm not gaming, I'm usually just surfing the 'Net or copying CDs to my hard drive. Even in Vista, I doubt this would constitute as anything near full load (I don't do video encoding or heavy compiling, etc.). The main reason I'm getting a quad is just to future-proof the system, and was only going to overclock it to be about as fast as the 3 GHz Core 2 Duo I had been looking at before (so I can get a little better performance out of some older games that aren't optimized for dual or quad cores, mainly). My apartment stays pretty cool as well, so that oughta help... :D
To give you an idea, I've got a ThermalTake big typhoon VX120, which is a much bigger cooler, and I've got a G0 Q6600@3GHz. All four cores are fully loaded 24/7 with grid jobs, and the CPU "case temp" reported by uGuru basically never goes much above 40 degress. This is with the 12cm fan running at half speed, which is only 1000 RPM. The individual cores (as reported by CoreTemp) are normally somewhere in the range of 50-55 with this setup. I can't imagine you're going to struggle with your freezer 7 pro. I just bought a monster cooler because I wanted it to be nice and quiet even under full load.
Thanks for your help. :) Takes a load off my mind knowing my fan oughta be sufficient. lol Noise isn't a terrible issue for me (I'm used to the constant hum older machines make, plus my TV is almost always on and turned up). I'm on a budget with the new rig; thats why I picked up the Arctic 7. Like you, I'll probably change it with something bigger and quieter eventually, though. But in the meantime, its conforting to know the Arctic should be sufficient. :D
a question: Is it faster to be running 1066mhz @ cas 5 or 800mhz @ cas 4?
thanks in advance
Right, Thermalright Ultima 90 installed with a Zalman 120mm fan attached
Core temps are
69
69
63
63
With Orthos running small FFT's - stress CPU
Not much of an imprevement over stock :(
Except its now running at 3 GHz :mrgreen:
The case fans are both at the max setting, so its pretty loud, however the Fan has the resistor installed so its only running at 1000 ish RPM
I'll leave it stressing for 24 hours with the case fans on max and the CPU fan with the resistor installed and see how it goes.
Since this is a worst case scenario for the CPU, if it works fine I will switch them back down and enjoy a quiet 3GHz quad :)
hmm im thinking of over clocking a lil bit, my q6600 & mem modules - not sure where to start?
is there any sites or info i can read up on regarding all the clock multipliers/frequencies/timings etc for these kindda things? i looked in my bios and was a lil weary - didnt wanna mess with anything without being sure.
HEXUS.net - Guide :: Intel Core 2 Duo basic overclocking guide for beginners : Page - 1/9
Look up the thread this article came from in the hardware forum for more info - written by Clunk. It's a great starting point. You've got a quad, but the principles are exactly the same as they're just 2 core2duos stuck together :)
Good luck. My advice - go slow and steady. I can think of at least one guy on this forum who got carried away overclocking his Q6600 too quickly and ended up bricking the whole lot.
Thankyou Fraz! that's just what i need. i'll read and procced with caution.
hi my first message. ive had my system a couple of months now and followed your amazing guide clunk:
its now q6600 @3.4 1.38 Vcore
p5k pro
4gb 6400 corsair
8800gt @700 core, 950 memory
and im very happy with performance while its working. Im using speedfan as i can have it always in view on the sidebar (coretemp is a pain on my vista 64) its set 15 degrees higher on each core to match coretemps more accurate reading. My temps are 39,39,35,34 with fans now on full antec 180 care and on a core intensive program they shoot up to a maximum of 64.
Ive had problems with a graphics driver message shuting my games down mid through so i bought my gpu overclock down and that seems to be ok now. But, occasionally ingame im getting a BSOD im guessing the core temp isnt high enought to shutdown the processor and the gpu isnt going above 70. Any ideas?
Im running my memory 1:1 @750 with no overcock and on the standard timings as if i adjust these even slighty the machine wont post. I havent changed the northbridge setting as i wasnt sure about this. This is a very long message but im not the best at explaing things this late at night.
Would appreciate any ideas.
What RAM and MCH voltages are you running?
ive tried my ram at 2v (thats what it says on sticker) i still got bsod so its on auto now MCH is at Auto
First things first, I'd try and totally discount the GPU. Try running a CPU stress test on all cores (Prime torture test is good for this) for several hours, and see if you get BSOD. If you can't replicated the in-game BSODs with just a CPU stress test, then that'll tell you something.
ill try that now and leave it on tonight. i just loaded up flight sim x just to test and got the BSOD after 2 minutes 'Page fault in non paged area' does that mean anything to you?
Well, immediate suspicion is towards a hard-disk or memory subsystem problem...
Basically, it sounds like you need to do a barrage of testing to me. Memtest, CPU stress test, disk error checks and get check the disk's SMART status would be a good start. If the problem keeps occurring only in games, then something funny must be happening with the GPU/GPU driver? Who knows.
Does you graphics card spin up the fan on load? Mine didnt when I first got it. You can find a solution to the problem here http://forums.hexus.net/graphics-car...n-control.html
ok im still on cpu test now 3 hours later. one core is hitting max 70c on a 259x9 (3200 mhz) overclock as my 3400mhz was failing straight away. I have noticed my Vcore while running has dropped from 1.38 to as low as 1.35. im guessing this is the vdroop and could be the cause of the blue screens?
I dont want to up the vcore as i think 70c is my maximum but i cant find a setting for the vdroop in the bios (p5k pro). any ideas.
What program is the most accurate for temp monitoring?
Asus PC Probe II says CPU is 37C
Speedfan says the cores are: 33,33,28,31C
Core Temp says the cores are: 48,48,43,46C
I am using a Freezer 7 Pro with AS5. CPU is at stock speed.
i use speedfan as theres a nice gadget you can get for the sidebar that uses it. you need to add 15c to each core to give an accurate temp (it then shows the same temp as coretemp). you can do this in speedfan so it displays 15c above its standard. click on configure, advanced, the first select menu select intel core and you can see how to add 15 on.
No idle. I have seen people post much lower temperatures using the same cooler. I did reseat the HSF, new AS5 etc on Monday but it hasnt made alot of difference.
Loads temps running Orthos on all 4 cores are:
CoreTemp
58,58,54,57C
Weird, those are a bit higher than my CPU under load, and it's overclocked to 3GHz...
okay im frustrated my vcore on startup has to be 1.41 so that i dont get blue screen running orthos as under full load my vcore is dropping a lot. its under full load now and has dropped to 1.38 vcore. i have q6600 @9*356 (3204mhz) and cant seem to get below 1.38 vcore is this a bad chip. its supposed to be a G0 i dont like the temps 73,73,70,69. its 40,40,35,34 when not under load, skythe ninja
Overclocked cpu to 3GHz by increasing FSB to 333. Have left CPU voltage on AUTO. CPU-Z reports voltage is 1.200V on load. Is this too low?
If it works then it's not too low ;)
generally you want to set as low a voltage as possible, which is probably what your auto setting is doing. Run a Prime95 torture test with 4 threads, and see if it fails. If it fails you may want to go in and up the voltage manually. If there are no errors, then I'd say stick with what you've got :)
I have just started O/C my Quad and have raised FSB to 350 and set voltage to 1.25 manully and so far is stable ( fingers crossed :) ) All in all lower voltage is better.
Having learned virtually everything I needed to know about overclocking from Clunk's guide (thanks! :)), I still browse the other (million or so) guides that are out there just to see the differing approaches to explaining 'obscure' stuff.
Most of it's all the same (obviously), however being one of the few owners of an extreme processor (the now "ancient" QX6800), this caught my eye:
(The full guide is at Intel Guide for those interested.)Quote:
Just like your CPU, the Northbridge on your motherboard (i865 and newer) has its own internal frequency and latencies which affect overall system stability. This is referred to as the NBCC (North Bridge Core Clock). The NBCC directly affects the performance and stability of your memory and CPU because Intel system used a NB based memory controller.
It has been recently discovered that the NBCC varies with your systems FSB and multiplier settings. The NBCC can be calculated by dividing your CPU current multiplier by its default multiplier and then multiplier the sum by your FSB.
For Example:
E6600 @ 500Mhz and a 7 multiplier:
(9 / 7) x 500 = 642Mhz NBCC
So it can be seen that lowering your multiplier, even though offering addition headway for FSB on the CPU, will increase the NBCC, reduce NB stability and thus cause the overall system stability to decrease.
XE (Extreme Edition) and ES (Engineering Sample) processors have the unique ability to adjust their multipliers up (All XE, not all ES) and down (all chips) while maintaining its multiplier status as default.
For Example:
X6800 @ 500Mhz and a 7 multiplier (just like above)
(7 / 7) x 500 = 500Mhz NBCC
As you can see, the X6800 has the exact same settings as the E6600, however, the NBCC is lower, resulting in increased system stability.
I'm wondering if this claim of his (he seems to know what he's on about) has any merit? I've never heard any mention of this "special" ability of extreme processors to "retain" their default multiplier status even if the multi is changed up or down? I "kind of" understand what he's saying, but is it true or just waffle? Most people are happy enough to just say the only difference between regular and extreme chips is the ability to up the multi. Is there more to it?