Some questions on Asus P5Ks, 8800GTs (and cooling them) & RAM speeds

[stroberaver]

Hi all, I've not been into the technical side of things for the past 18 months or so, but it's time to update my rig at some point over the next couple of months. I'm currently running an AthlonXP 2600+ with an nForce2 mobo - don't laugh.

I'll effectively be building a new machine, but carrying over drives and PSU from my current one. I'm planning basing it around the E8400 in an Antec P182 case. The focus of the rig will be quietness and stability - it's in the living room and is used for work and photography more than gaming these days. However I can't say I'll never turn the FSB up to 400.

Problem is, i can't decide what mobo to get. I like Asus mobos, and it seems the P35 chipset is a good mainstream board (the X38 would have no benefit to me) - which means an Asus P5K in some flavour. But I don't know which flavour. I was interested in the P5K Pro, as it's like a premium board but with the stuff I don't need chucked out. In it's favour, it's keenly priced, and has the Asus EPU power saving abilities which is appealing. But then I realised that (1) it's not a full size ATX board - it has an inch or two shaved off which doesn't affect things except to make the board a little more cramped, but (2) the 24-pin power connector is in a stupid place, and would prevent me from routing the power cables across the back of the Antec P182 case (which kinda defeats one of the main advantages of that case, imho).

So which P5K is most suitable? I'm not counting the premium boards with things like wifi that I have no use for, I'm not spending a 3-figure sum on the mobo. There's the basic, plain vanilla P5K, or the P5KR with the added RAID controller in the southbridge. Or there's the P5KC which accepts both DDR2 and DDR3 memory. Hmm. Any suggestions? I wonder if the P5K Pro and a 24-pin extension cable is the way to go.


For graphics, I'm thinking 512MB 8800GT. A little more than I wanted to spend but this card is clearly the price/performance sweet spot at the moment. But should I go with a cheaper one and put my own cooler on it (likely a Thermalright HR-03-GT, lovely and quiet with a large, slow fan), or get one of the slightly overclocked ones that come with a Zalman cooler fitted? Hmm. Any suggestions?


Finally, I've no idea what RAM to get. I'm assuming I want DDR2-800 - and that there's not too much benefit (when compared to the extra cost) of getting -1066 ram? Given that I'm not a mad overclocker (as mentioned, I may try to take the FSB up to around 400, which gives a CPU speed of ~3.6 GHz which I've read is easily do-able with the Wolfdales), which brand and speed of memory would you recommend that is best value? I'm looking at getting 2 gigs.

So far, the final build will look like this:

Intel E8400 Wolfdale CPU
Thermalright Big Typ VX cooler
Asus P5K - not sure what flavour
2GB RAM - not sure what flavour
nVidia 8800GT - not sure what flavour - poss. with Thermalright HR-03-GT
* Tagan TG480-U01 PSU (480W)
Samsung Spinpoint HD501 - 500GB
* 2× Seagate 7200.7 160GB
* 2× optical drives
Antec P182 case


* = carried over from current system

Your help and advice is much appreciated. I have to wait until next month before I can afford it, so it's going to be a test of self-restraint not to click "buy" on any of these items before then!

[staffsMike]

You seem to have the right idea about making a good quiet system. The Thermalright HR-03 is bloomin massive so as long as you aren't planning on having many other addin cards its not a bad way to go.

The only other GT i've seen that seems to have a decent and possibly quiet cooler is the Gainward Golden Sample. I would probably just get the cheapest one you can and fit the HR-03 to be honest.. gauranteed good temps and noise.

The big typhoon is a good cooler but I would deffenatly go with a tower cooler instead. They are very effective.

The best cooler for the P182 imo is the scythe ninja rev B. It's cooled by it's own fan and sits right next to the P182's extractor fans so it gets tremendous cooling. It is also silent inside the P182 tried and tested

Motherboard wise, I would either get the Abit IP-35 dark radier which is often <&#163;70 and is amazing quality and the service/support from abit is fantastic. They even have a care forum right here on hexus.

If you are dead set on Asus I would be inclined to go for the P5K-E wifi ap (i know you don't need wifi but it comes with it ..)

[cabooseUK]

Hey just thought you might be interseted, this is the cheapest 8800 GT ive been able to find although it isnt of a top brand. With a HR-3-GT it would easily overclock to give the performace (or even more) of a much higher priced 8800GT personaly i would just buy that and the cooler and overclock it.

Value nVidia GeForce 8800GT 512MB DDR3 Dual DVI/TV Out PCI-E, Retail from Overclock.co.uk

[Buzzsaw]

Personally I'd recommend an 8800 GTS, not that much more for a good one (eg Gainward or EVGA). Especially when you add in the cost of the aftermarket cooler.
Then there is the fact that its less hassle- it'll run out of the box.
Finally, depending upon the monitor you use, you may find that the GTS gives a better fps.

[stroberaver]

Thanks everyone for the advice.

You seem to have the right idea about making a good quiet system. The Thermalright HR-03 is bloomin massive so as long as you aren't planning on having many other addin cards its not a bad way to go.

Yep, its sure huge but I've no plans to add any extra cards in there. I'm only using a 2.1 speaker setup so the onboard sound is fine, and there's simply no other cards I can think that I'll need to add. I've certainly not needed to add anything to my current hardware which has been going for (at least) a good four years now.

The big typhoon is a good cooler but I would deffenatly go with a tower cooler instead. They are very effective.

Yes, I've just been reading about the Thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme - according to Anandtech, this hing can cool a Core2Duo at stock speeds passively! I don't know if I'd risk that but even the slowest, quitest fan will be all that's needed. This system is going to be sooo quiet.

My only concern is whether the P182 case has enough width to accomodate the height of the Ultra 120, considering that the P182's motherboard is moved further into the case to make space for the cable routing on the dark side?

Motherboard wise, I would either get the Abit IP-35 dark radier which is often <£70 and is amazing quality and the service/support from abit is fantastic. They even have a care forum right here on hexus.

Well I was wanting Asus because of their features, especially those of the P5K Pro, but quickly browsing the silent pc review forums, I found out about the excellent fan control options on the IP35 Pro. I know it goes over the three figure sum I set myself as a limit, but it sounds like an excellent feature. I've always wanted a properly quiet computer but never managed to get there. The Abit care forum here at Hexus is a tempting bonus, too. And the IP35 Pro has an excellent layout that will work well with the P182.

Hey just thought you might be interseted, this is the cheapest 8800 GT ive been able to find although it isnt of a top brand. With a HR-3-GT it would easily overclock to give the performace (or even more) of a much higher priced 8800GT personaly i would just buy that and the cooler and overclock it.

Value nVidia GeForce 8800GT 512MB DDR3 Dual DVI/TV Out PCI-E, Retail from Overclock.co.uk

Cheers, that looks like the road I'll be going down. I think I may prefer a cheap branded card just in case of any troubles, but I've decided I'm not going to worry too much about whether it arrives at stock speeds or not. Hell, even an 8800GT underclocked is going to be lightyears ahead of my 5900.

Personally I'd recommend an 8800 GTS, not that much more for a good one (eg Gainward or EVGA). Especially when you add in the cost of the aftermarket cooler.
Then there is the fact that its less hassle- it'll run out of the box.
Finally, depending upon the monitor you use, you may find that the GTS gives a better fps.

My monitor is a 17" LCD (1280×1024). Is that the G80 based GTS? One of the reasons I accepted the 8800GT is that it's on the 65nm G92 core, which reduces power consumption and heat. Besides everything everything gradually creeping up in price, I'm also keeping an eye on power consumption. I'm going to check with Tagan that my 480W PSU has enough 12V juice to safely power all this, and I'm hoping it has. If not then it's time for a new PSU as well, which will mean more saving up first. So at the moment an 8800GT with HR03-GT cooler is more tempting because it consumes less and produces less heat yet (from what I can gather) is almost there with the GTS in terms of performance.

Of course if the GTS you're referring to is built on the 65nm G92 core, then that's my argument out the window.

So we're getting there, but I'm still not sure about what RAM to go for. Anyone got any pointers on that for me please?

[stroberaver]

ok, I've done a lot of googling and found some answers. Yes, the Thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme will fit in an Antec P182. And the Tagan 480W should be ok with the 8800GT - it has 28A on the 12V rail, and various specs I've seen for the 8800GT (depending on the manufacturer) rate it as needing between 22 and 28A on a quad core Intel Extreme processor, so I expect mine is sufficient. I'd upgrade the PSU before I think about overclocking in the future though.

I'm still not sure on the RAM though. Looking through the Scan website, I can get 2GB (2&#215;1GB) of Corsair TwinX XMS2 at 4-4-4-12 for only &#163;39. I also looked at Crucial's website, who sell the same 4-4-4-12 2GB (2&#215;1GB) of Ballistix memory for nearly &#163;60.

What's the difference between these two? Is it the case that the Ballistix is better (since it costs more), and if so is it anything that will benefit me (i.e. not a mad overclocker by any means!)?

Thanks in advance.

[oralpain]

My monitor is a 17" LCD (1280&#215;1024). Is that the G80 based GTS? One of the reasons I accepted the 8800GT is that it's on the 65nm G92 core, which reduces power consumption and heat. Besides everything everything gradually creeping up in price, I'm also keeping an eye on power consumption. I'm going to check with Tagan that my 480W PSU has enough 12V juice to safely power all this, and I'm hoping it has. If not then it's time for a new PSU as well, which will mean more saving up first. So at the moment an 8800GT with HR03-GT cooler is more tempting because it consumes less and produces less heat yet (from what I can gather) is almost there with the GTS in terms of performance.

Of course if the GTS you're referring to is built on the 65nm G92 core, then that's my argument out the window.

The 8800GTS 512, which he was refering to, is G92 based.

However, it's power consumption matches that of a stock G80 GTS and exceeds that of the stock 8800GT by a good deal, as it has a higher GPU voltage, more enabled shaders, and higher clock speeds all round.

Taking stock configurations into account, the 8800GT is the better value. However, if you are going for aftermarket cooling on the GT, then the 8800GTS looks much more appealing.

The GTS has a vastly superior stock cooler, better voltage regulation, and as I said, high GPU voltage. On average, this makes them noticeably better overclockers than the GT, even if the GT has aftermarket cooling, and the GTS has stock. The GT will run cooler with the HR-03 on it, but the GT is limited by binning and voltage as much as by temperature.

The only downside to the GTS, if you have any intentions of overclocking either card, is the higher powerconsumption, which amounts to about ~25 watts at full load. Even if electricity costs increase substantially, you would be paying very little extra over the lifetime of the card.

In the end, if you want to run purely stock (including stock cooler), then the 8800GT is a better deal. As is, it is 20&#37; cheaper, and only about 10% slower. If you want to OC much, the GT needs a 3rd party cooler to maintain acceptable noise levels. The GTS does not.

[stroberaver]

Thanks for clearing that up. However I'm still planning on the 8800GT at stock speeds with a quiet 3rd party cooler. The GTS is tempting, but has too much of everything:

- too much cost. My plans are going way over the amount I was initially wanting to spend!!
- too much power drain, the GT is ok with my Tagan but the extra (12V) load from the GTS would be more than I'm comfortable with, without upgrading my PSU.
- the extra power means extra heat
- too much performance. Ok, so there's not really any such thing as too much performance. What I mean is that I honestly think the 8800GT will be more than adequate for my needs, for quite some time.

Current planned rig:

Intel Core2Duo E8400
w/ Thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme
w/ Noctua 120mm fan, speed controlled by mobo
Abit IP35 Pro
nVidia 8800GT
w/ Thermalright HR-03-GT + quiet 92mm fan
2 GB DDR2 RAM at ??? speed
Antec P182 case
320GB Samsung SATA drive
* 2 &#215; 160GB Seagate 7200.7 SATA
* 2 &#215; optical drives
* Tagan T480-U01 PSU

I'm still just stuck on the RAM issue. I can't find the relevant reviews or tests that would teach me how much difference between DDR2-1066 and DDR2-800, and how much impact the timings can have. Any pointers much appreciated.

[oralpain]

The stock cooler at stock speeds is not that bad. Only when it ramps up past 50&#37; is it noticeable, in most cases.

If you really need a 3rd party cooler, the arctic cooling S1 rivals the Thermalright HR-03 and can be had for half the price. The Thermalright is ever so slightly easier to work with however.

As for ram, you will not notice the difference between DDR2-800 and DDR2-1066. Even in extremely memory bandwidth limited situations, I can only faintly percieve a difference betteween running my memory at DDR2-800 and running it at DDR2-1200. Your planned CPU has six times the L2 cache of mine, so you will be limited even less by memory speed. Benchmarks will show single digit % improvements, but you won't see or feel much of anything.

As for timings, tRD (aka performance level) is the only single timing of true significance, though you can achive slightly lower tRD values with a tighter CAS.

One other thing; the CPU heatsink you have is mega overkill. Have you seen the stock E8xxx line of heatsinks? It's all aluminum and only half the height of intel older stock heatsink. These chips barely put out 30-35w under max load. Even with the best OC you could theoretically get on that board, that CPU will not disipate more than 75w.

Nothing wrong with having too much cooling. Hell, the fan could die on the thermalright and you'd probably never know the difference (I gurantee you could run it at 4GHz passively cooled with the 120, as long as the case fans still worked). However, I think you would be better off (financially and as far as practical performance is concerned), if you had a less expensive heatsink that also gave the northbridge some of it's excess air flow (lowering tRD often requires more chipset voltage, and makes chipset cooling more important).

[Pob255]

Can I just say a couple of things here

If you're not really planning on gaming then I'd not bother with the 8800gt or gts they will be of no use at all.
the only things graphics card help with are games and video decodeing (although some 3d packages can use it, but only for the layout desplays not the actual rendering)
I'm not too sure about the the 8800 for decodeing but the 8600gt was far better than the old 8800 for video decodeing.
On the coolers, some of the newer 8800gt now have a larger fan which is far quiter than the old one.

Now depending on what resolution you use you can get away witha far lesser graphics card.
GeCube have got a very nice HD3850 512mb Overclock with x-turbo iii cooler which is a great little card, will play games at reasonable fps at low-medium resolution, the cooler is less noisey than the stock while doing a better job at cooling it and will only set you back £110 at ebuyer
Here's a couple of reviews
Techpowerup and
TweakTown
No it's not as fast as a 8800gt 512 or 8800gts 512 but it is quieter and cooler while giveing decent performance at half the price of the gts, so it's far better as an occainsional gamer card, put the extra money on cpu

I'd also agree that the thermalright cooler is going to be over kill esp without any real overclocking, starting off with the stock one will be fine at first, but experience has shown be that the old stock cooler clogs up with dust pritty fast and is not great all told.
For volume vs price vs performance, I'd have to go with a Scythe mine with this one, it can keep a hotter e6750 with slight overclock well under control with very little sound and it's very easy to replace the fan with something larger and quieter if needed.
the only bad thing I can say about the mine is that intell push pins and large coolers don't mix well for a total novice doing his first build (speaking from experience, from helping a friend build his very first pc, a smaller cooler with push pins or one that involved a bolt through kit would of been eaiser for him)

[stroberaver]

As for ram, you will not notice the difference between DDR2-800 and DDR2-1066. Even in extremely memory bandwidth limited situations, I can only faintly percieve a difference betteween running my memory at DDR2-800 and running it at DDR2-1200. Your planned CPU has six times the L2 cache of mine, so you will be limited even less by memory speed. Benchmarks will show single digit % improvements, but you won't see or feel much of anything.

As for timings, tRD (aka performance level) is the only single timing of true significance, though you can achive slightly lower tRD values with a tighter CAS.

Many thanks. DDR2-800 it is, then. So generally, the lower the timings in the SPD, the faster the RAM will run without manually setting it. I noticed that in the Corsair RAM I referenced earlier, it is advertised at 4-4-4-12 but the SPD is actually set to 5-5-5-18. Presumably, the Crucial Ballistix has the SPD timings set to 4-4-4-12, which is the reason for the extra cost?

One other thing; the CPU heatsink you have is mega overkill. Have you seen the stock E8xxx line of heatsinks? It's all aluminum and only half the height of intel older stock heatsink. These chips barely put out 30-35w under max load. Even with the best OC you could theoretically get on that board, that CPU will not disipate more than 75w.

Nothing wrong with having too much cooling. Hell, the fan could die on the thermalright and you'd probably never know the difference (I gurantee you could run it at 4GHz passively cooled with the 120, as long as the case fans still worked). However, I think you would be better off (financially and as far as practical performance is concerned), if you had a less expensive heatsink that also gave the northbridge some of it's excess air flow (lowering tRD often requires more chipset voltage, and makes chipset cooling more important).

You'er just making me want it even more now. Passively cooling something so much more powerful than my AthlonXP with it's whiny 80mm fans sounds ideal! I agree, it is a lot of cooler for a chip that is cool anyway. I'm thinking of it as more of an investment for the future - silent computing now, and the freedom to overclock in the future when I've upgraded the PSU without having to go to the hassle of swapping HSFs.

Can I just say a couple of things here

If you're not really planning on gaming then I'd not bother with the 8800gt or gts they will be of no use at all.
the only things graphics card help with are games and video decodeing (although some 3d packages can use it, but only for the layout desplays not the actual rendering)
I'm not too sure about the the 8800 for decodeing but the 8600gt was far better than the old 8800 for video decodeing.
On the coolers, some of the newer 8800gt now have a larger fan which is far quiter than the old one.

Well, I wouldn't say I wasn't going to bother with gaming. It's true that I don't play many games at the moment - mainly because my computer can't. But I do enjoy messing around in FSX, and I daresay that with a decent rig, I'll be wanting to play the likes of Bioshock and HL:EP2. I also want something that's reasonably future proof.

The newer cooler sounds interesting, I could hold off the HR-03-GT if the larger cooler doesn't whine as much under load. Is there anyway of telling whether a card has the new or original cooler, given that photos are always "for illustrative purposes only"?

GeCube have got a very nice HD3850 512mb Overclock with x-turbo iii cooler which is a great little card, will play games at reasonable fps at low-medium resolution, the cooler is less noisey than the stock while doing a better job at cooling it and will only set you back £110 at ebuyer

Thanks for the recommendation - I had heard that ATi were much stronger in the mid-range than the top. However I'd like to keep my Linux options open, for which I understand nVidia is much better.

the only bad thing I can say about the mine is that intell push pins and large coolers don't mix well for a total novice doing his first build (speaking from experience, from helping a friend build his very first pc, a smaller cooler with push pins or one that involved a bolt through kit would of been eaiser for him)

Oh I've built plenty rigs before, just not recently. All I can say is that HSF mounting on the 775 socket looks far easier than levering the heatsink over the clips of a Socket A mount whilst not wanting to crush the cpu that doesn't have a prtoective heat spreader on it!

[oralpain]

Many thanks. DDR2-800 it is, then. So generally, the lower the timings in the SPD, the faster the RAM will run without manually setting it. I noticed that in the Corsair RAM I referenced earlier, it is advertised at 4-4-4-12 but the SPD is actually set to 5-5-5-18. Presumably, the Crucial Ballistix has the SPD timings set to 4-4-4-12, which is the reason for the extra cost?

You're welcome.

No, the Ballistix defaults to 5-5-5-18 as well. Most memory does, as those are the JEDEC specified timings for DDR2-800 @ 1.8v (which is the default DDR2 voltage, and the normal max ratio supported with a 200/800FSB chip). Using the JEDEC specs means that the memory can be put into pretty much any system and just work.

You have to go into the bios to set the rated voltage and timings manually.

The Ballistix is a touch more expensive because they can afford to be; demand is high. Crucial, being a division of Micron, almost only uses Micron chips. You are virtually guaranteed to get Micron D9GMH in any set of 2x1GiB DDR2 ballistix you buy (667, 800, or 1066; they are just binned a bit differently). These chips tend to be superior than the chips used on less expensive memory, even if that less expensive memory is rated for better speed or timings.

[stroberaver]

Ah, this is all beginning to make much more sense now. What exactly is "better" about the Micron chips in Crucial RAM? Better overclockability? Or is it just in general (lower voltages, reliability, etc)?

I'm curious as to whether I'm likely to benefit from the ram that uses Micron chips, or if making such distinctions is the preserve of the hardcore overclocker.

[staffsMike]

They are renound for being great overclockers. But they also tend to get quite hot and so they need some active cooling. Floating an 80mm fan near them is quite effective.

[th0r0n]

Does this help? P182 with P5K-E, 24 pin connector from a Corsair HX620 goes round the back (Just!)

[TooNice]

The 8800 GT that has caught my eye the most recently is the ECS N8800GT. It comes equipped with an Arctic Cooler S1, a cooler that has received praise from SPCR (amongst others). It's not really easy to find but I've seen a few of the less known/mentioned e-tailer carrying the card while Googling around for about &#163;170-175. By no mean a bargain, but it saves some work (and depending on the card manufacturer, the warranty) from getting a GFX card then fitting with it's own S1. If you know that you are going to be happy with the stock GTS cooler, then &#163;175 is definitely getting too close to the cheapest GTS you can find. But considering that the S1 passively cool the 8800GT, it will definitely be quieter than a stock GTS (unless there are silent ones around - I looked but haven't seen any). If you add a third party cooler to a GTS, the price gap widens again.

The Palit/Xpertvision have are also dual slot coolers for two of their 8800GTs (one stock and one OC'ed) and I remember noting from at least one review that it is capable of balancing out the performance advantage of the GTS stock cooler. Their 8800GT also tend to be one of the cheapest. However, if you do decide at a later date to change the cooler, then you'll definitely void the warranty (can be said with most other cards too).