Old geezer building a pc

Hi folks.
I'm learning panoramic photography. I use various bits of software, including Photoshop of course. PTGUI etc. I need to build a new pc and it has to last a while as I'm now a full-time carer and no longer earning. I have put a spec together and discussed it with someone helpful at Scan. This is it (roughly).
Abit IP 35 Pro mb
Intel Q6600 processor
4 Gb 800 Mhz ram
3X Samsung hd's configured as RAID 5
Akasa Mirage case
Zalman heatsink
Akasa 500W p/supply
plus the other bits and pieces (DVD writer, wireless card etc)
I have a couple of low-spec graphics cards lying about (ATI Radeon and Nvidia) and as I don't do gaming I don't need anything much in this area.

What I'm going to need is a pointer to a thread or site where someone goes through the basic bios tweaks for setting up the system initially. I know the mb will probably have some documentation, but I don't expect too much from it. I've never done this before but I'm reasonably intelligent, if a bit clapped out as I enter my seventh decade.

I'd appreciate any help anyone would care to offer. I haven't ordered the hardware yet, but please don't bombard me with too many suggestions unless there's a serious flaw in my spec.
Thanks in advance!
Roy

unless-you're-running-64bit-vista-you-won't-need-4gb-ram-it-won't-be-able-to-use-it.

Right, robotic first answer out of the way.

If you're just doing photography stuff, not gaming, I'd personally be inclined to pick up an old single or even dual core Dell or something. Seriously. If you're just tinkering with photos, I personally don't think you'll need quad core or anything like that, and can just save yourself come money.

Clunk's guide here http://forums.hexus.net/hexus-hardwa...eral-info.html will set you on the right path.

Thanks Shooty.
In fact some of the VR panos I'm doing are created using HDR photography (multiple exposures - up to 9) for every shot. A complete set of shots means up to 90 RAW files (@ about 16Mb each). This is a lot of data and there's a lot of interpolation involved. The final output files are usually about 300Mb. Believe me my AMD 3500 box (2Gb ram) is groaning.
One area that's important for both Photoshop and the other apps is disc access speeds. I may later add either a Raptor as a scratch disc or even a solid-state device if the price drops dramatically.
On the RAM issue, I'll be using XP pro 32 bit. I understood that this effectively meant that 4 Gb ram actually = >3 Gb ram - which is better than 2 isn't it?
OiD - thanks, noted.

Personally I would say go with 4 gb still. Always specced it in our 3D cad machines & it helped. But as ever, it's a matter of opinion. I would say tho it's a good time to buy ram as prices are low & if you go 64bit, then you're already sorted.
The Q6600 is a quality all round performer whether overclocked or no. Can't fault it, sound choice imo.

4gb of ram and quad would (is) my choice too - surely photoshop is multi core aware? Both are relatively cheap for the performance benefit returned. You'll get ~3gig of RAM under XP32 - and you can bung 64vista on later to see the rest of it if you want.

Yes, Photoshop is mcp compatible but I'm still investigating some of the other apps. VR panoramic photography is mostly the province of open-source-, free- and not-very-expensive-ware.
Still, no one has said that this is stupid configuration, so I'm reasonably happy (apart from the price, that is... and I also need to add some external backup).
Thanks for the informed responses!
Roy

If your not over clocking i don't see the need for such an extravagant motherboard, consider dropping down to the cheaper dark raider.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aez

If your not over clocking i don't see the need for such an extravagant motherboard, consider dropping down to the cheaper dark raider.

---

I was in fact aiming to overclock this eventually as I know someone with the same processor who is running it successfully at 3.1 Ghz - which is why I am buying a 3rd party cooler.

They'll go much higher too - I had to make almost no changes to achieve 3.0ghz and i've left it there as I didn't see any benefit taking it further (for what I use the PC for).

I'd say your spec looks good, i am not sure exactly how quiet the Akasa case is, and might be inclined to recommend one of the larger Antec's since you are going to have 3 spinning hard drives - even quiet ones will have some vibration and the Antec cases such as the P180 / P182 have rubber grommits to absorb this.

You may also find some general use in this forum:
Digital Cameras, Photography & Photo Editing - AVForums
But it also might seem overkill and OTT (it does to me!).

PS have you tried the GIMP for photo editing? It's not a replacement for Photoshop, but it's free and good for a tinker. Famous for Linux but good for Windows too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aez

If your not over clocking i don't see the need for such an extravagant motherboard, consider dropping down to the cheaper dark raider.

---

I agree.
The IP35 Pro is overkill and overpriced.

The Dark Raider is fine and much better value than the Pro

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OldRoy

I was in fact aiming to overclock this eventually as I know someone with the same processor who is running it successfully at 3.1 Ghz - which is why I am buying a 3rd party cooler.

---

I got to 3.2ghz on my Q6600 with any voltages increases. Im just happily chugging away at 3.0ghz atm and its great. Very very cool too.

I second or is it third the suggestion to go for the IP-35 dark raider over the Pro, I would also look at the Thermalright Ultima 90, Thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme, Scythe Ninja or Scythe Mine as better coolers than the Zalman offerings (and the Mine is a bit cheaper as well ;)).

If this was my System this is what I would be looking at,

CPU: Q6600
CPU Cooler: one of the above
Motherboard: Abit IP-35 Dark Raider - No need for the Pro
Memory: 4GB 800Mhz
Hard drives: personal preference leans towards Western Digital AAKS drives but Samsung are good as well.
DVD: Samsung SH-S203 - Really quiet drive.
Case: Antec Solo - Personal preference more than anything and quite a bit cheaper.
PSU: Enermax Liberty 400W - Modular and more than enough power for your needs.
An alternative to the Case and PSU could be the Antec Sonata III or the Sonata Plus 550, they both come with decent power supplies and would knock a fairly large chunk off the total price.

All of this is available from Scan they have no picture for the Sonata Plus 550 but here is a link to Antec's site for the whole Sonata family

Antec Sonata Family

Oh you may need an additional case fan depending on which case you chose if you let us know which case you decide on we can talk fans :)

Hope this helps and I have explained my reasoning to your satisfaction.

Everybody:.
Blimey - what a great forum! Lots of well reasoned suggestions.
It was originally suggested that I use the Antec P 182 case - Scan suggested the Akasa for reasons of additional space. I duuno - never seen either of them. Fan for the case occurred to me too.
Re PS modularity. Again the guy at Scan suggested it was disadvantageous (his reasoning entailed something about increased impedance in the connectors and consequent overheating... it sounded a bit unlikely to me too). Is a modular PS a no-contest Good Thing?
The board was actually, again, suggested by Scan as a replacement for the Gigabyte P35-DS4 which someone else suggested. Reason; worse MTBF in his experience. Does the DR (god I hate names that imply gaming - no offence to gamers intended but the assumption these days seems to be that only gamers need fast pc's!) support RAID 5? I'll take a look at the spec.
PSU: Enermax Liberty 400W - This case may end up chock full of drives unless I end up building a NAS box. 400W enough?

Once I pension off my existing box there's also a chance that the new one will end up with additional cards - audio etc. I need enough slots, power and case space.

Again, many thanks to you all for such attention to detail. I'm really impressed!
TBC
(which once upon a time meant "timebase corrector" to me. A cigar to anyone reading this who has used one!)

For a PSU something like a Corsair HX520W(if you need modular cables) or a Corsair VX550W(which is not modular) should fit the bill well.

While it's true that the modular connections are not as good as fixed (maybe you lose 1-2% efficiency), you can use less cables, which helps airflow.

The Pro has e-SATA, which seems to be the only reason, apart from the higher quality capacitors, to buy it over the DR.

Just how many HDDs might you end up with?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH

For a PSU something like a Corsair HX520W(if you need modular cables) or a Corsair VX550W(which is not modular) should fit the bill well.

---

The Liberty is a little less powerful than the Corsair (although still more than capable of running a good system) but the build quality of the Liberty is far superior.

If you are concerned about the quality of the modular cabling then the Corsair unit wont be for you.

(dont worry Mike....i wont again :D )

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Blitzen

The Liberty is a little less powerful than the Corsair (although still more than capable of running a good system) but the build quality of the Liberty is far superior.

If you are concerned about the quality of the modular cabling then the Corsair unit wont be for you.

(dont worry Mike....i wont again :D )

---

Lol I won't either.. *whispers* but the modular cables are fine :laugh:

I read that the liberty was a fair bit noiser than the corsair which swung it for me but this on silentpcreview so they do get quite picky about noise. The two PC's i've built that were required to be silent or as near as makes no difference I've used corsair and been very happy. My PC which I don't require to be uses an OCZ which i'm also very happy with.

400W is more than enough for what you need so the enermax liberty would be fine, corsair VX 450/550, HX 520w , they are are all good in my eyes. Just depends what you want and how much you want to pay for it.

I heard if you wrap modular cables in tinfoil and only build the machine during a full moon it's fine.

Honestly, modular make little or no difference - aside from being a darn sight easier to live/work with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by staffsMike

Lol I won't either.. *whispers* but the modular cables are fine :laugh:

I read that the liberty was a fair bit noiser than the corsair which swung it for me but this on silentpcreview so they do get quite picky about noise. The two PC's i've built that were required to be silent or as near as makes no difference I've used corsair and been very happy. My PC which I don't require to be uses an OCZ which i'm also very happy with.

400W is more than enough for what you need so the enermax liberty would be fine, corsair VX 450/550, HX 520w , they are are all good in my eyes. Just depends what you want and how much you want to pay for it.

---

I have used both like i said and there is no audible difference.

The only fan i can hear (very slightly) on mine is the 200mm in the top of the case.

Working on the basis that the is no point in spending money on something you don't need I would go with the 400W Enermax liberty (cheaper than other options and still modular) as I suggested in my previous post if you are getting the case and PSU separately, without a high powered graphics card (for playing games) the power draw will never even get close to exceeding this. My System (see link under my name) only draws 140W from the wall at full CPU load (running F@H) and that is with a big graphics card sucking some juice even at idle, factoring in PSU efficiency of ~85% 120W supplied from the PSU. So I think you would be hard pressed to exceed 300W with the system you are suggesting in fact I would expect you to be much closer to 200W.

Thorsson
Re drives: 3 in a RAID 5 array (os/apps, data). 1 scratch (Photoshop, panorama tools) which ideally would be a Raptor or more ideally solid-state. And possibly 1 or even two others as data backup, fed by a robocopy script (I'm old...).

I may even order on the basis of the above discussion as soon as tomorrow, if I can stump up the conviction needed to spend this much money. Forgive my ignorance but eSata - faster?

eSATA is used for external disks and is much faster than USB. I would tend to use this for backup myself. Your RAID is fault tolerant so what you really need is an external backup that can't be taken out at the same time if some disaster hits your rig (IMO).

I still think you could make do with a 486.

Or a PDA.

But I'm outvoted ;)

With the 486 I could actually go back to my Nikon F3. In fact I wouldn't even have to switch it on, Shooty! I could even dig out my BBC B (with co-processor: the dog's...). The fact that I'd have to massage the mb every day before it booted isn't a big problem really. And the £2K I spent on that Mac SE should have been the last time I needed to buy a new computer - 1Mb of ram and a 20 Mb hd should be enough for anyone. Never owned a PDA unless you coun't the first Nokia "Communicator".
Meanwhile.
I remembered about eSata a bit later. It's a bit of future-proofing and faster externals would't hurt.
Now, what sort of case fan do I need? Obviously quiet is good. Is it dependant on the case chosen? (finding it difficult to make my mind up).

There have been whole threads dedicated to case fans, but a good case usually has OK fans. You definitely want to get 120mm fans. After that it's a matter of trading airflow for silence. Roughly speaking 1200rpm is almost silent, 1600rpm is quiet, and ~2000rpm you really start to notice. Scythe & SHarkoon are good from experience. A number of people like the cheap Xigamech at Scan.

OK Folks, I just received the bundle. More or less as above. Overspec ps (a deal) and Antec 182 case (heavy!). Scan forgot to put the thermal paste in though.
Expect questions: I'll try to make them reasonable intelligent questions if I can. I'm going to set up to the default clock speed initially. BTW I got 4X1Gb Corsair ram. I understand that this means I can use the ram in dual-channel mode as all 4 slots are populated but can someone tell me if this is (a) a Good Thing and (b) Easy to set up?
Old Roy
Afterthought.
Is there a thread that provides a basic set of steps for a build of this kind - pre-overclocking? I'm thinking particularly for the initial BIOS setup. I haven't yet looked at the manual for the mb but I'm not expecting too much from it.

I'll be in & out of the house today but will keep checking as much as i can and helping with pointers.
4 x 1 Gb sticks is fine, just put them all in, nothing to worry about (ironically, trying to find the two channels out of 4 slots is sometimes not obvious, but you dont have to think about that).

Don't even think about overclocking right now - as far as i'm concerned there is no "pre-overclocking" stuff that is different to setting up a regular PC (once you have bought your bits). Just get it up and running first, with no overclocks.

You may find that it wont post with 4 sticks of RAM easy to sort though, start with 1 stick of RAM and enter the BIOS and then up the memory voltage a notch, turn it off stick in the rest of the memory and away you go! The Corsair RAM assuming it is XMS2 is good up to 2.1v if your motherboard has +0.1v increments it will start at 1.8v so you need to go up to +0.3v.

Hopefully that should help if you have the problem :)

Thanks MSIC
Call me a fool by all means, but after an hour of struggle I can find no way of mounting the guide rails on the Samsung optical drive so as to make it fit. Even with the rails fitted in the most forward position - toward the drive front, The spring levers hit the lugs on the case with about 2cm of drive poking out of the front. I wouldn't have expected this to be a problem! How hard can it be? Puzzled...

Webby - the ram is corsair XMS2-6400.

yeah it is fine up to 2.1v then :)

I would help with the DVD mounting problems butr not having a P182 I don't know what to suggest :(

TBH I nevr had any problems booting my IP35 Pro with 4 sticks of Crucial (I wanted to see if there were problems and it only takes seconds to fit/unfit RAM). I did go straight to the BIOS and up the voltage to 2.1V though - I didn't want Vista to crash half way through installation!

Don't have a P182 either, let's hope MSIC pops back in. Can't say I've ever had a problem fitting an OD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OldRoy

Thanks MSIC
Call me a fool by all means, but after an hour of struggle I can find no way of mounting the guide rails on the Samsung optical drive so as to make it fit. Even with the rails fitted in the most forward position - toward the drive front, The spring levers hit the lugs on the case with about 2cm of drive poking out of the front. I wouldn't have expected this to be a problem! How hard can it be? Puzzled...

---

OK, am back from Sainsburys.
Hmm - are you still having the same problem? (I realise that you posted about 2 hours ago).
The front-most tips of the metal part of the rails have to line up with the front of the optical drive.

Have you got it upside down?

A more sensible question. (I had to bodge the bl00dy DVD writer fit-up - nb; no, right way up... it seems that the lugs on the case are too big - very odd, I spent about 2 hours on this!)
For the little 2 and 3 pin Molex (?) connectors supplying the front panel etc (pwr switch, reset etc) am I right in recalling that the small triangle/arrow is on the +ve pin?
And
For my Antek case there are 2 HDD led connectors in this group but only one on the Abit m/b. Ignore second I assume?
I more or less have the box assembled apart from these small connectors. I won't tidy the loom until I have something that works.
Nb I've put two simms in one channel - do you suggest I remove one for initial setup?

Hi - am confused about the optical drive issue - i wasn't asking if the optical drive was upside down by the way, i meant try changing something about the orientation of the rails.
I think yes, the triangle is for +ve, and i'd suggest that yes, ignore the second HDD connector.
Do you have it booting yet? Installing your OS ok? Have you set the fan speeds on the case to the slowest speed?

HI MSIC
lots of interruptions at the moment so discontinuous progress.
The DVD fitting problem is a minor irritation - I'll get back to it - at present I have a couple of cable ties on it! NOT a permanent arrangement.
I am dithering about the boot-up as I have heard that oem xp needs re-authorising if you change the graphics card (letter to PCPro magazine: I thought it was only the mb that related to the license.) THe ATI card I was going to use may have a fault so I'm thinking I may as well buy an inexpensive 512 Geforce 8500 anyway.
So I'm way behind. If you can be bothered take the occasional look here as I can't be sure when I can spend time on this due to other pressures (aka life).
But thanks for your valued oversight!
BTW how does one issue formal "thanks"? - can't see any links.

OK - power-up fine.
In aBit "Guru" setup bios menu I see the following:
CPU - 2399
Ext Clock - 272 Mhz
Multiplier - x9
Est. new cpu clo. - 2488
Dram speed - Default DDR2-816 (I have 2X 1GB simms in ch1)
Voltages
CPU core - 1.3250
DDR2 - 1.8
cpu vttt 1.2v - 1.2
mch 1.2v - 1.25
1ch 1.5 v - 1.5
DDR2 ref volt - 0%
CPU gtl ref 0&2 - 67%
cpu gtl ref 1&3 - 67%
I'm tempted to go ahead and see what I can do on the assumption that everything can be reset easily enough? Anyone at all like to comment?
Looking at the mb manual I am stunned to see that setting up the RAID requires a FLOPPY!!! Surely this isn't the only way - who the hell build pc's with FD's these days?? I have floppy drive in another box but I don't really want to dismantle it. Hmm

You should change the DDR2 Voltage from 1.8 to 2.1, especially if you want to OC. Also note that this board seems to default to a RAM multiplier of 2:3. If you want to OC I suggest taking it down to 1:1 before you start. You already have a 6Mhz OC, and that has resulted in the RAM running at 816. I'm sure there won't be any problems with it at that speed, but if you step up the OC, it's likely that the RAM would be the first to cry nuncle.

Thanks Thorsson
I'm afraid in my ignorance I can't equate your observation about the multiplier with what I see. I don't actually understand the implications, but the options available simply say "min 6 max 9". I don't know how this relates to the 2:3 ratio you mention. Remember I am completely new to this. For the moment I'd just like to achieve a working system at default/optimum settings. The oc can wait until I understand what I'm doing.

The option you want is DRAM Speed (CPU: DRAM) on the main uGuru page. This must be on Default at the moment and Default is running it at 2:3. You can tell that because DDR2 running at 816 means a clock of 408 (that's what the 2 in DDR2 means) which is 1.5 times your FSB of 272 (a slight default OC on the board, compared to stock 266). You need to change the default to 1:1.

Thanks again.
I'll take a look at this tomorrow as I have to attend to other things now. Your advice is appreciated.
Roy

The 2 in DDR2 means the second generation DDR stands for Double Data Rate that is where the 2x comes into it. not that it really matters why it should be so just that we know that it is :)

Hi again
I'm currently beached as I can't manage to get the XP mirroring to work (put a thread on the o/s board about this). As soon as I can get the RAID up and running I'll start looking at the system setup. I'd like to optimise the RAM, bus and clock settings so that I have a stable system whilst I set up my applications etc.

Right now, living on the bank of a river, I spent most of the day filling sandbags and worrying about something COMPLETELY different.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OldRoy

Right now, living on the bank of a river, I spent most of the day filling sandbags and worrying about something COMPLETELY different.

---

In which case - good luck mate and I hope your system (and you) stays dry!

Anybody, I'm going nuts here and wish I'd never started this. The people who write the aBit "manuals" should be taken somewhere quiet and shot like sick dogs.
I have tried and failed to get any mirroring using XP. The aBit manual is a ****ing joke.
I have finally found CTRL I (the opportunity goes by in about a millisecond) and configured drives as RAID 1. Attempting to install (about the tenth time in two days) XP on this gives a blue screen and asks me to check my drives.

Now what is the goddamned driver floppy disc about? Is it possible to create a RAID array AFTER installing XP - damned if I know. There are two options for the driver set, one Intel and one for someJMicron. There is a JMicron utility on the aBit CD. Do I install on a single disc using the JMicron drivers and then set up the RAID afterward. There is not A SINGLE WORD about this in the manuals - absolutely f*cking incredible.

Someone put me out of my misery please. HOW can achieve this simple objective? RAID has been round for more than a decade! I refuse to just give up and instal on a single disc after spending a small fortune on this hardware (& how I wish I hadn't).

And now I have to spend half the night sitting up hoping I don't get flooded...

I'd suggest a new thread on this, and it's probably best in the Abit forum (or post in both places). There's no hint in the title that you want to know about RAID, so the right people won't look at it.

AFAIR with XP you normally load the RAID drivers at installation time. Not sure what happens if you try to do it afterwards.

OK Thorsson - I'll repost.
Thanks.

F6 with the RAID floppy in before format isnt it?