best sound card?

[Biscuit]

Depends on what sample frequency/bit rate the board outputs at. My old onboard sound used to output at 44.1Khz 16bit (about the same as CD quality) and my XFI sounded much better at 96Khz 16bit. Im now using an auzentech Xplosion via optical and everything is wonderfully crisp Again it comes down to how good your amp/speakers are. If your looking to get a good value Hi-Fi system go to richersounds.co.uk. Can usually pick up a decent 5.1 amp for 130 odd and then a decent set of bookshelf speakers for 80-120. Obviously the more you spend the better it gets but over a set of logitechs anything in the above stated range would be better (unless your a bass junky and dont notice the difference between good sound and bad)

[Bill_Bright]

I do not fully agree that a sound card would make no perceivable difference until you spend reach a certain range of speakers. Speaker/headphones first, yes, but source (DAC) is a close seconds in my book.

Now wait TooNice - I made a specific example using his specific speaker system! You turned that in to a generality - and about something else! Headphones!?

Listening to music or movie sound tracks with headphones is a whole different concept in audio listening, with totally different nuances that either enhance, or detract from your listening pleasures, depending on your concept of what good music reproduction should "sound" like.

Audiophile quality audio reproduction hardware is my first love, long before the PC, C64, or Altair. I have listened to some of the finest headphones ever made over the last 35+ years (in, on, and over the ear). And certainly, you can get some incredible audio reproduction, at incredible prices. But there is no headphone that lets you "feel" the music - and not just the thump, thump from an over-driven subwoofer - but from the full audio, and aural, spectrum that can only come from devices that move the air all around you, and not just a little squirt in the ear.

And sorry, but you backed up my position any way - you still must have quality speakers (whether inside a headphone, or a full size cabinet). I don't think you are suggesting a set of $2 earbuds sound as good as the models you suggest, or for those costing 10X more.

In my experience, the source is ultimately secondary to the speaker/ headphones, but at the lower end make nearly as much difference.

Aren't you saying to get good speakers? Isn't that what I said?

I would definitely recommend spending £50 headphones and £50 on a sound card over £100 headphones and onboard sound card for instance.

I agree - if going with headphones, that would be wise. But I would try the £50 headphones with onboard first. That may be good enough.

As far as going digital or light all the way to the speakers - that would depend on the speaker system. Certainly, the budget models will have fewer inputs, possibly only analog.

In any case, there is no such thing as a digital speaker (if you heard it, it was marketing/advertising hype). Ears hear in analog. Therefore, at some point, there must be some DAC going on - where you allow it to happen depends on the quality and capabilities of each component in the line.

Ultimately, for high-end quality audio reproduction you need high-end electronics and high-end speakers (or headphones, if that's your bag). High-end speakers can make low end electronics sound good. Low-end speakers, even with the best electronics, will still sound like tin cans.

[SiM]

I can't use my headphones (UE super fi 5 pro) with my onboard sound... There's always a background hiss

Regarding the digital sound question, I actually meant is there a difference in quality between:
DTS soundtrack - onboard sound - optical/coaxial - AV receiver/amp - speakers
and
DTS soundtrack - expensive sound card - optical/coaxial - AV receiver/amp - speakers

Since the amp does the digital to analog conversion in both cases, surely there will be no difference in sound quality?

Surely if you have a graphics card that does sound over HDMI even,
DTS soundtrack - graphics card - HDMI - AV receiver/amp - speakers
will be the same in quality?

[Agent]

Correct SiM

For any audio that is decoded external to the computer, the 'sound card' does not matter. In fact, you don't even need a traditional sound card as we know them, just something (optical/coax) to transport the stream to the other device. There is no DAC needed, or used in these situations

And can we keep the ex-gf / clutter talk to GD please Thanks

[matty-hodgson]

Correct SiM

For any audio that is decoded external to the computer, the 'sound card' does not matter. In fact, you don't even need a traditional sound card as we know them, just something (optical/coax) to transport the stream to the other device. There is no DAC needed, or used in these situations

And can we keep the ex-gf / clutter talk to GD please Thanks

do we even have to keep that stuff over there even though it's my thread?
not trying to change the rules or anything..
wouldn't want another infringement from you
how long do i have that for btw?

[TooNice]

I can't use my headphones (UE super fi 5 pro) with my onboard sound... [...]

That's what made me realise that onboard sound are just not made for quality (for me it was the Westone UM2). Going discrete not only fixed improved the sound on them but pretty much everything else I plug into them.

Strictly speaking, you will still hear about people talk about bit-perfectness and jitter when using the sound card as a 'transport' (that's what it's called when you are only using it to pass the data to an external DAC). That is one reason the Chaintech AV-710 was at one time quite popular: it was inexpensive (in the States), and was known for providing bit-perfect optical out. Personally, I can't vouch either way - I've not done any comparison, and I am weary of placebo too (on the other hand, I am not a complete cynic either). It's probably one of the less important aspect. @Agent: I am assuming you are saying that there is no DAC needed on the sound card.. because that process is still required first thing after the sound card.

What is worth a try if you do go for a discrete solution, is to test out the analogue out too. Sound cards (in the £50 range) may not have the best DAC built in, but not all amp carry better DAC either (generally, their to amplify sound - the ones that do amplifying and digital-analogue conversion well cost their sheer weight). And whilst Logitech speakers are popular because of their optical out, I actually found them better sounding out of the analogue out of the Elite Pro than the optical out of an onboard card (down side with Creative cards is that their optical out is seemingly restricted to stereo).

[SiM]

Correct SiM

For any audio that is decoded external to the computer, the 'sound card' does not matter. In fact, you don't even need a traditional sound card as we know them, just something (optical/coax) to transport the stream to the other device. There is no DAC needed, or used in these situations

Cheers. Now I know for sure that its a waste of money for me to get a sound card for my HTPC system
Will be putting more money towards amp and speaker

And can we keep the ex-gf / clutter talk to GD please Thanks

OK boss. I am sorry

[Biscuit]

I can't use my headphones (UE super fi 5 pro) with my onboard sound... There's always a background hiss

Are you connecting it to thefront or rear connector, if its the front that could be an issue with the front IO incorrectly wired or having a loose wire.

Regarding the digital sound question, I actually meant is there a difference in quality between:
DTS soundtrack - onboard sound - optical/coaxial - AV receiver/amp - speakers
and
DTS soundtrack - expensive sound card - optical/coaxial - AV receiver/amp - speakers

Since the amp does the digital to analog conversion in both cases, surely there will be no difference in sound quality?

In theory no they should be exactly the same however i can tell you now, the coax/optical output on my old A8N Sli-Deluxe was nowhere near my XFI, even when the frequencies/bitrates where the same and any sound processing was switched off. Again when i changed from that (which was Coax) to my auzentech (which was optical) i noticed the change again. This time however my auzentech actually proccessing the audio before its sent to the amp.

I think that any sound card no matter how much it costs and what it claims to do, will do some kind of processing before the signal is sent to the amp so you will always have a slightly different result.

Surely if you have a graphics card that does sound over HDMI even,
DTS soundtrack - graphics card - HDMI - AV receiver/amp - speakers
will be the same in quality?

If the encoded sound signal is sent directly to the video card and bypasses any sound proccessing devices (software or hardware) then yes

[SiM]

That's what made me realise that onboard sound are just not made for quality (for me it was the Westone UM2). Going discrete not only fixed improved the sound on them but pretty much everything else I plug into them.

Strictly speaking, you will still hear about people talk about bit-perfectness and jitter when using the sound card as a 'transport' (that's what it's called when you are only using it to pass the data to an external DAC). That is one reason the Chaintech AV-710 was at one time quite popular: it was inexpensive (in the States), and was known for providing bit-perfect optical out. Personally, I can't vouch either way - I've not done any comparison, and I am weary of placebo too (on the other hand, I am not a complete cynic either). It's probably one of the less important aspect. @Agent: I am assuming you are saying that there is no DAC needed on the sound card.. because that process is still required first thing after the sound card.

What is worth a try if you do go for a discrete solution, is to test out the analogue out too. Sound cards (in the £50 range) may not have the best DAC built in, but not all amp carry better DAC either (generally, their to amplify sound - the ones that do amplifying and digital-analogue conversion well cost their sheer weight). And whilst Logitech speakers are popular because of their optical out, I actually found them better sounding out of the analogue out of the Elite Pro than the optical out of an onboard card (down side with Creative cards is that their optical out is seemingly restricted to stereo).

Hmm... interesting... I suppose there is a huge difference in quality between the inbuilt amp/dac in a logitech and one in a denon or onkyo av receiver... I can't see the onboard (or even a £50 sound card) being better than a £400+ home cinema receiver...

I am going to have to trust that the HDMI sound (when I get my HDMI amp) on my HD2600pro is close to bit perfect, but even if it isn't I probably won't be able to tell

[SiM]

Are you connecting it to thefront or rear connector, if its the front that could be an issue with the front IO incorrectly wired or having a loose wire.

Happens with both, but I can reduce it by turning the volume down and the wave up in volume control.

In theory no they should be exactly the same however i can tell you now, the coax/optical output on my old A8N Sli-Deluxe was nowhere near my XFI, even when the frequencies/bitrates where the same and any sound processing was switched off. Again when i changed from that (which was Coax) to my auzentech (which was optical) i noticed the change again. This time however my auzentech actually proccessing the audio before its sent to the amp.

I think that any sound card no matter how much it costs and what it claims to do, will do some kind of processing before the signal is sent to the amp so you will always have a slightly different result.



If the encoded sound signal is sent directly to the video card and bypasses any sound proccessing devices (software or hardware) then yes

I was assuming unprocessed sound for all. I don't see why it would process it at all

[Agent]

do we even have to keep that stuff over there even though it's my thread?
not trying to change the rules or anything..
wouldn't want another infringement from you
how long do i have that for btw?

errmmm, yes, GD is the only playground around these parts buddy
Infractions are for the For Sale forums - read the rules in there for the info

@Agent: I am assuming you are saying that there is no DAC needed on the sound card.. because that process is still required first thing after the sound card.

Yes, no need for a DAC on the sound card if the stream is being passed externally (as this will have the DAC on it).
Of course, somewhere their must be a DAC, otherwise we would never hear it (assuming you don't have a hard-wired digital input to yer brain, matrix style)

Although I've never seen a soundcard without a DAC. Realtek / ALC are that cheap anyway I guess it just wouldn't make sense

[Biscuit]

I was assuming unprocessed sound for all. I don't see why it would process it at all

No nor do i, creative seem to think thinks differently tho

[Agent]

I think that any sound card no matter how much it costs and what it claims to do, will do some kind of processing before the signal is sent to the amp so you will always have a slightly different result.

A lot of people think this, but in most cases its simply not possible.

Assuming an external amp: To do this you would have to decode the Dolby Digital stream, apply the effects, and then re-encode the stream. There is very few cards that can encode Dolby Digital (NForce 2 could, the newer expensive Auz. cards can), and I would assume these have the option to leave DD streams alone, and probably set by default. Heck, it would be silly for them to mess with the stream if they were connected to digital out and playing pre-encoded content anyway.

If you're using the card to decode the stream though, that's a different matter. The card could decode the steam, apply any filters / effects and then pass it to the DAC, which then will come out of your speakers. In this scenario as the card is doing the decoding, it can happily change the output of what you're hearing.

This is why so many people bang on about 'digital to the amp'. Putting aside how different speakers alter the sound, 2 different amps should give a relatively close sound to each other, if they are both Dolby Digital certified.
Well, that's the theory anyway. There is also a lot of factors in the amp would can alter the sound

In short: You should be able to swap any soundcard with any other, assuming that they both have digital out to the amp, and they should sound exactly the same on the same set of speakers and amp when playing pre-encoded Dolby Digital content.
If you were using digital to the amp Biscuit, I'd love to know what was causing it because I'm at a loss of what it could be

Fun isn't it?

[Biscuit]

I know what your saying and i know the theories + i completely agree that it should happen the way its stated... im told this at uni aswell but im just stating what i have experienced which is through the time of using different digital outputs though different sound cards has given slightly different results... maybe im the anomaly

[Agent]

Yeah, defo weird
You 100% sure the amp was Dolby Digital and digital was going direct to it (and testing on pre-encoded content, not music / games / etc)?

If you ever do find out a reason though, I'd love to hear it

[Biscuit]

Pretty sure yea! i still got my old XFI card but i may well do some tests just to be sure.

(i just finally put the screws on the side of my case again today, signifiying the end of my build for a while aswell )