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Thread: Need some advice!

  1. #1
    Senior Member MuTTy_Hc's Avatar
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    Need some advice!

    Hi all.

    Sorry for the generic title.

    I need some advice for a dilemma I have.

    I currently own the system below,

    E8400
    4GB Ballistix DDR2 RAM
    8800GTX
    320GB Samsung F1
    750W Toughpower PSU
    Asus P5k Deluxe 775 Mobo
    Creative Xfire Soundcard

    I'm very happy with it, it's a great system and plays everything I throw at it. But... I don't use it much anymore.

    I use my ps3 for games, and browse the web mainly on my laptop.

    So I'm wondering a) How much could I get for it?

    B) Should I change it for an atom based system, d525 w/ ion2 for example or d525 with a £50-60 gcard.

    Basically I want a rig for streaming, internet usage and word processing as well as the ability to play two games. Starcraft 2 and Diablo 3. The latter is one I cannot miss playing.

    But you see. I want to cut down on my electricity costs also and this current rig uses about 350w when its on, whereas my laptop uses 30w. I know its pennies but they add up in the end and really I just want to get everything as efficient as possible.

    So I was thinking my options were,

    Sell this system - get an atom based one.

    Replace some parts of this system for lower W ones, 8800gtx for example for a ati 5750/5770 and the processor to an e5200 (got one laying about). Maybe even change out the mobo for a MATX one?

    But I don't want to fork out too much you see, so I'm in a dilemma lol.

    Thanks for reading, any input is appreciated.


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    Moosing about! CAT-THE-FIFTH's Avatar
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    Re: Need some advice!

    I would first sell the graphics card as the 8800GTX does consume quite a lot of power.

    You could get a GTX460 768MB for around £115 to £120 which would consume far less power at idle and at load than an 8800GTX.

    However,if you can wait for the HD6850 1GB to drop to under £135 again this is even more power efficient than even a GTX460 768MB.

    Both,the GTX460 768MB and HD6850 1GB will also be a performance increase over an 8800GTX. The HD5770 1GB is even more power efficient than a GTX460 768MB or an HD6850 1GB but is much slower. It will still be an upgrade over an 8800GTX 768MB though.

    Also,you could get a Core i3 530 or 540,4GB of DDR3 and a mTAX motherboard for around £220 and sell your existing setup to partially fund it. The Core i3 does have low power consumption and the HT will help in multi-threaded games too.

    OTH,you could try undervolting your E8400 too.

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    Senior Member MuTTy_Hc's Avatar
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    Re: Need some advice!

    cheers for the reply mate,
    I don't suppose you would know of a mobo with decent onboard graphics? As I may check the bay for a while to pickup a bargain.

    Thanks.


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    Not a good person scaryjim's Avatar
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    Re: Need some advice!

    An Atom-based system is gonna flake for Starcraft 2, as RTS games hit the CPU hard. I imagine it'd struggle on Diablo III as well, tbh.

    The E8400 is a reasonably energy efficient processor for the amount of power it has: from memory it's a 65W TDP chip and I don't think there's a 65W processor out there at the minute that can beat it for performance really (a 45W Athlon II X4 would be faster in heavily multithreaded programs but slower in single or lightly threaded programs). The real killer in your system is the 8800GTX. As CAT says, if energy efficiency is your main concern in a gaming rig, upgrading the 8800GTX to a GTX460 768MB, HD6850, or HD5770 will give you equal or better performance (and I much better feature set including DX10.1 / 11) with lower power draw. Otherwise I really wouldn't change anything. Take a look at these power draw figures: the E8200 is sat in a P5K Premium and the whole lot only draws 120W under full 2D load - it's incredibly energy efficient.

    The only other I'd think about changing is that PSU - 750W is massively overspecced for your system (my Core 2 QUAD plus 8800GTX only pulls 370W under extreme load (3 cores of wprime plus furmark!)) so it's a fair bet that it's running at low efficiency. Switch the 8800GTX for a lower power, modern card and stick in a decent, branded 400W PSU, and you should find you make a significant power saving without losing any of the performance you'll need for SC2 or D III

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    Senior Member MuTTy_Hc's Avatar
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    Re: Need some advice!

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    An Atom-based system is gonna flake for Starcraft 2, as RTS games hit the CPU hard. I imagine it'd struggle on Diablo III as well, tbh.

    The E8400 is a reasonably energy efficient processor for the amount of power it has: from memory it's a 65W TDP chip and I don't think there's a 65W processor out there at the minute that can beat it for performance really (a 45W Athlon II X4 would be faster in heavily multithreaded programs but slower in single or lightly threaded programs). The real killer in your system is the 8800GTX. As CAT says, if energy efficiency is your main concern in a gaming rig, upgrading the 8800GTX to a GTX460 768MB, HD6850, or HD5770 will give you equal or better performance (and I much better feature set including DX10.1 / 11) with lower power draw. Otherwise I really wouldn't change anything. Take a look at these power draw figures: the E8200 is sat in a P5K Premium and the whole lot only draws 120W under full 2D load - it's incredibly energy efficient.

    The only other I'd think about changing is that PSU - 750W is massively overspecced for your system (my Core 2 QUAD plus 8800GTX only pulls 370W under extreme load (3 cores of wprime plus furmark!)) so it's a fair bet that it's running at low efficiency. Switch the 8800GTX for a lower power, modern card and stick in a decent, branded 400W PSU, and you should find you make a significant power saving without losing any of the performance you'll need for SC2 or D III
    Thanks for the input mate.

    I'm thinking of a few things, an option would be this,

    intel i3 530
    4gb ddr3 ram
    matx 1156 mobo prob a gigabyte h55 one
    ati 5770
    antec earth power 430w

    thoughts?

    Or

    keep what I have but omit the 8800gtx for a 5770 and swap out the psu for the antec.


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    Senior Member Pob255's Avatar
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    Re: Need some advice!

    I'd also say stick with what you have, run it at stock 3ghz and undervolt it
    Replace the power hungry 8800gtx with something with lower demands the 6850 is an excellent choice as it's very low power demands when idle

    I'd look at the BeQuiet e7 480w psu
    http://www.scan.co.uk/products/480w-...-80plus-bronze
    Although currently not in stock with no eta

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    Senior Member MuTTy_Hc's Avatar
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    Re: Need some advice!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pob255 View Post
    I'd also say stick with what you have, run it at stock 3ghz and undervolt it
    Replace the power hungry 8800gtx with something with lower demands the 6850 is an excellent choice as it's very low power demands when idle

    I'd look at the BeQuiet e7 480w psu
    http://www.scan.co.uk/products/480w-...-80plus-bronze
    Although currently not in stock with no eta
    Thanks for the reply - just curious - why would you say stick with what I have?

    Cheers.


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    Not a good person scaryjim's Avatar
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    Re: Need some advice!

    Quote Originally Posted by MuTTy_Hc View Post
    why would you say stick with what I have?
    While the Core i3 would be an upgrade from an E8400, it wouldn't be a huge upgrade and it has a higher power draw. And obviously it'd cost a lot more to do a whole rebuild now!

    Intel and AMD both have new architectures coming out next year (for AMD it's the first major change since Athlon 64!) which should offer better performance with higher efficiency, but at the minute the cost of completely rebuilding your PC is not going to be translated into a noticable gain in performance, and is likely to leave you with a more power hungry PC than sticking with your E8400 + P5K and swapping the 8800GTX for a more efficient graphics card. From your OP it looks like saving money is high on your list of things to do, so surely that starts with reusing as much of the current rig as possible

    If you went for a HD6850 now to replace the 8800GTX you'll get a noticable performance increase, a noticeable reduction in power draw, and then if next year's new CPUs turn out to be a lot more energy efficient than an E8400 you could replace the rest of the PC then, carrying the 6850 over to an even more efficient build on a new architecture!

    EDIT: have just looked up some reviews and it appears that you might save a few watts by going Core i3, but tbh I don't think that's a big enough difference to justify the £300 outlay up-front that it would cost to make the change, and the performance (as I said earlier) is likely to be no better except in heavily threaded workloads....
    Last edited by scaryjim; 01-11-2010 at 10:04 AM.

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    Senior Member MuTTy_Hc's Avatar
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    Re: Need some advice!

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    While the Core i3 would be an upgrade from an E8400, it wouldn't be a huge upgrade and it has a higher power draw. And obviously it'd cost a lot more to do a whole rebuild now!

    Intel and AMD both have new architectures coming out next year (for AMD it's the first major change since Athlon 64!) which should offer better performance with higher efficiency, but at the minute the cost of completely rebuilding your PC is not going to be translated into a noticable gain in performance, and is likely to leave you with a more power hungry PC than sticking with your E8400 + P5K and swapping the 8800GTX for a more efficient graphics card. From your OP it looks like saving money is high on your list of things to do, so surely that starts with reusing as much of the current rig as possible

    If you went for a HD6850 now to replace the 8800GTX you'll get a noticable performance increase, a noticeable reduction in power draw, and then if next year's new CPUs turn out to be a lot more energy efficient than an E8400 you could replace the rest of the PC then, carrying the 6850 over to an even more efficient build on a new architecture!

    EDIT: have just looked up some reviews and it appears that you might save a few watts by going Core i3, but tbh I don't think that's a big enough difference to justify the £300 outlay up-front that it would cost to make the change, and the performance (as I said earlier) is likely to be no better except in heavily threaded workloads....
    thanks for the input mate.

    So things to change are - gcard and psu?

    I'm looking at a 430-480w 85%+ eff psu, but I'm currently trying to pick the right one that is readily available.

    I have found a 530w 88% eff (the higher model of the one the guy said was good above) for a reasonable price - but I don't know if 530 is too much?

    Cheers.

    ps. The only reason I thought the i3 was suitable was under load it uses about 40-50w less than the e8400 is all. Not masses but it was something.


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    Not a good person scaryjim's Avatar
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    Re: Need some advice!

    The i3 won't be 40 - 50W less than an E8400 - the E8400 only uses 65W maximum as it is! The TDP on an i3 530 is 73W - 8W more than an E8400 - but the accompanying chipset uses less power, so it all evens out. The hexus review I looked at had the i5 661 at 7W less than an E8500, and the 661 has a TDP of 87W - 14 more than the 530. So I think you'd realistically be looking at a maximum difference at load of ~ 20W over an entire system draw of 200W or more.

    To get an 80+ rating a PSU has to be efficient at 20%, 50% and 100% of its rated power draw. A gaming PC is likely to idle at 100W or less and load to between 200W and 300W. So at load a 530W PSU will be fine - you'll be right in the middle of its range for peak efficiency, however at idle you'll be on the very load end of the efficiency curve so you might not be getting the bes from the PSU. I certainly wouldn't want to be buying something rated much above 500W. However, a 530W PSU would give you scope to upgrade more components if you find you're getting back into PC gaming and want a more powerful machine after all, so I don't think you can go far wrong with it.

    Incidentally, that 88% efficiency rating will be at a very specific power draw, and mostly it won't be that efficient: 80+ bronze means it has been tested to be *at least* 82% efficient at 20% and 100% load, and 85% efficienct at 50% load. more info (and details of other ratings) at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/80_PLUS

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    Senior Member Pob255's Avatar
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    Re: Need some advice!

    Sorry Jim but TDP and the amount of watt a cpu uses are not the same thing, it's a good indication but not the actual amount of current needed.
    TDP is the maximum amount of heat they put out or to be exact the amount that needs to be dissipated by the cooler.

    As PSU's and 80+ rateing goes jim has summed it up well, things to note, most PSU's are at highest efficiency at 40-50% load.
    There are issues with the 80+ rateing especially the testing done by Ecos Consulting who manage the rateing system.
    This is mainly because they test at 23c and it's been shown more than once that some psu's lose efficiency at higher temps and other actually gain efficiency at higher temps and the temps in a pc case will rarely be that low.

    There is the Enermax PRO 82+ II 425W which is 88% at 50% load at 40c but not cheap
    http://www.scan.co.uk/products/425w-...ee-twister-fan

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    Not a good person scaryjim's Avatar
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    Re: Need some advice!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pob255 View Post
    Sorry Jim but TDP and the amount of watt a cpu uses are not the same thing
    No need to apologise I know TDP isn't technically the same thing as power draw, but it's a pretty good indicator, and it tends to be the only published rating that you can use for estimating power draw of a component...

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    Senior Member MuTTy_Hc's Avatar
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    Re: Need some advice!

    ok so i'm still thinking about what to do - and i thought instead of making a new post i should post this here.


    Hi all, I'm after changing my pc around into a more power saving pc. I don't really game on it much anymore, but certain games such as starcraft 2 and when it arrives, diablo 3 will see some serious play time. (Other rts/ rpg that you can't get on consoles will also see some playtime)

    So at this current moment in time my rig is this,

    e8400 stock
    4x1gb crucial ballistix 8500
    asus p5k deluxe
    8800gtx
    320gb samsung hdd
    xfire gamer soundcard
    750w thermaltake toughpower
    cm stacker 831

    had it for a good few years now, has served me well.

    I've been racking my brains on what to change and what not to change, essentially I've thought of every possibility from changing a few pieces from this to getting rid of it all and starting again.

    Essentially whatever I do, I don't want to spend too much money.

    I understand that the 8800gtx and psu will probably eat too much so they should go, so one idea is,

    idea #1
    keep main pc
    8800gtx out - ati 5750/5770/4850/4770 in
    psu out - corsair 430cx in
    smaller case (need a smaller one anyway)

    idea #2
    mini-itx board zotac 9300 ddr3
    e8400
    mini-itx case w/ psu
    4gb ddr3 ram

    idea #3
    ddr3 775 board
    e8400
    corsair 430cx
    ati 5750 etc
    3x2gb corsair ddr3
    smaller case

    idea #4
    amd x4 955 cpu
    880g mainboard
    psu, ram, case, gcard from above

    idea #5
    intel celeron ulv + ion2 build
    mini itx etc.

    think thats pretty much it. Basically the pc will 80% be used for doing my work on, browsing the web and streaming stuff. The other 20% will be sc2 and diablo 3 (when diablo 3 is released, probably 50/50 time!)

    Hence an idea of perhaps onbaord graphics now - upgrade later did come to mind, however. I really would like to get 6gb or more of ddr3 ram, and I saw some at the mo for a really good price but its 3x2gb hence I need 4 slots...

    Soz for the confusion guys, but I've spent a good week thinking about this and really I just need some comments to help me across the line.

    THanks.


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    Re: Need some advice!

    The corsair 430cx's are these builders models? I think they are upto 80% efficient iirc so you're better off with something like an antec earthwatts if you do go down that route.

    Try to avoid the ATI 4k series as they do not downclock themselves at idle.

    Find a cheap laptop and use this PC for gaming. The returns/expenditure don't really make much sense to me if all you're going to do is claw back your expenditure in energy savings.

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    Re: Need some advice!

    Quote Originally Posted by Domestic_Ginger View Post
    Try to avoid the ATI 4k series as they do not downclock themselves at idle.
    oooh yes they do!

    /panto

    Okay, technically the RAM stays at the same speed, but the more power hungry GPU downclocks in idle very effectively.

  16. #16
    Moosing about! CAT-THE-FIFTH's Avatar
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    Re: Need some advice!

    The HD4830 and HD4850 had 2D and 3D clocks for both the GPU and RAM although it was dependent on the manufacturer enabling such functionality. I use ATI Tray Tools to set custom 2D and 3D clockspeeds ATM for my HD4830 512MB. The new 2D clocks I set are much lower than what the card would originally do.

    The CX430W is actually inferior to the CX400W it replaced as the latter could supply more amps on the 12V line and is 80+ certified too.

    The website in this thread should help you:

    http://forums.hexus.net/hexus-hardwa...ml#post2005371

    These two PSUs are expensive but are quite efficient:

    http://www.scan.co.uk/products/425w-...ee-twister-fan

    http://www.scan.co.uk/products/400w-...-free-gift-fan

    Having said that you can a Corsair CX400W from Novatech fro around £32:

    http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/p...U-400CXUK.html

    You can get cashback from TopCashBack and Quidco on Novatech purchases too.

    Regarding the graphics card I would get an HD6850 1GB. It has relatively low idle power consumption and at peak is not that higher in power consumption when compared to an HD5770 1GB. OTH,it has much greater performance in games and improved tessellation performance.

    The HD6850 1GB has risen in price though as you could get an XFX HD6850 1GB for around £133 at launch from Scan and now the HD6850 1GB is around £145 to £160.

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